From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #88 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, November 26 2002 Volume 08 : Number 088 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate Re: [scribes]: vine colors [scribes]: Primary Source... was: vine colors Re: [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate [scribes]: IKA: Source materials Re: [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate [scribes]: rabbit pic Re: [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate RE: [scribes]: Primary Source... was: vine colors Re: [scribes]: Primary Source... was: vine colors Re: [scribes]: rabbit pic [scribes]: link collection [scribes]: Pigments CD [scribes]: gesso article [scribes]: video [scribes]: dyed vellum Re: [scribes]: rabbit pic Re: [scribes]: dyed vellum [scribes]: THANKS!! [scribes]: My Project is Published on Web ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:39:37 -0500 From: moonlight_dancer@earthlink.net Subject: [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate

Hi,

I've been asked to do a Celtic baby baptismal certificate..

Help. Has anyone does any thing like that?

Celtic colors are generally bright green, red and yellow. Should I go for something softer?

What else do you suggest to be included in the design?

It's due by Dec 5.

Thanks,
Tamara

 

=================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:01:01 -0600 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: vine colors Soapbox warning. Just to be picky because it is a pet peave, and one all too commonly misunderstood in the scribal world... Geordon VanTassle wrote: > > > This is true, from what I've seen. And, I've even seen primary > resources. :) > Did you mean 'original' source? A primary source is one that comes from someone who has seen an original (and thus can give a detailed description or an accurate drawing), or was there at the time of the event (so can describe or draw the event as accurately as a single point of view allows). In most academic circles, even facsimilis of books count as original sources of the manuscripts themselves (you can see the actual calligraphy as it was rendered, and study the rendering of the illuminations almost as if looking at the original, with the exception of how the gold is printed and actual chemical analysis of the colors). In paleography (which doesn't care about the chemical composition, just the shape of the letters), a good xerox copy can still be considered as an original, so long as the finer lines are transfered to the copy. The primary source of calligraphy and illumination is someone looking at the original and sketching it (in detail) from what they see. ON the other hand, both the original manuscript and the facsimilis are primary sources of the *content* of the text and pictures (i.e. of the events described or depicted--if contemporary to the author/artist, and of clothing and weapons and food depicted, assuming they are assessed as depicting things the artist would have been in a position to observe personally). Alternatively, they may be secondary sources about the content (but still original sources of the artistic rendering) if they are based on the descriptions of someone else who saw the content, such as most period bestiaries, which are based on someone elses description of animals seen in their travels rather than on the artist seeing it him or herself. Not that you asked for the lesson in semantics, but I hope you find it useful. I'll get off my soapbox now. Enid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:08:23 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: [scribes]: Primary Source... was: vine colors Why Conchobar said was what he meant... I introduced him to the Newberry Library's rare book room two weekends ago ... real, no s**t, Medieval manuscripts. This is a private library in Chicago that focuses on Renaissance Studies, but is open to the public to view anything they have as long as it doesn't leave the grounds. I often go there for an entire day (and it is a 3-hour drive for me... each way) just to sketch different aspects of illumination. One side note... my drawing skills have gotten MUCH better since I started doing this!! Personally, back to the sources issue... I would accept a really good facsimile as a primary source, but if someone is describing something, then there is a "chance" they get something wrong... but, a codicil to that would be archeological descriptions. Paintings and illuminations can often be considered primary sources, but even they are suspect, as they can be interpretations of the artist. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.insightbb.com Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:05:55 -0800 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate > moonlight_dancer@earthlink.net wrote: > > Celtic colors are generally bright green, red and yellow. Should I go > for something softer? Which denomination are the parents? Their church itself may have specific colors associated with it. Also, Dec. 5 is in Advent, and the colors for Advent are purple and rose. I think the best thing to do is check with the parents. > What else do you suggest to be included in the design? A cross. :-) Branwen ferch Emrys - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:47:20 -0600 From: Geordon VanTassle Subject: [scribes]: IKA: Source materials On Sunday, November 24, 2002 at 11:01:01 GMT -0600 (which was 11:01 AM where I live), thus spake wyverns on the subject of "[scribes]: vine colors": Seems to me that what we have here is a little IKA (Inter-Kingdom Anthropology) going on here... w> Did you mean 'original' source? A primary source is one that comes from w> someone who has seen an original (and thus can give a detailed w> description or an accurate drawing), or was there at the time of the w> event (so can describe or draw the event as accurately as a single point w> of view allows). In most academic circles, As I recall, here in the Middle, there is no difference viewed between what you are classifying as an "original" source vs. a "primary" source. I could be wrong in my recollection, and am sure that I'll be corrected if necessary *waves to Mistress Katerina*. Anyway, the way I remember having primary vs. secondary vs. tertiary sources explained to me a couple of years back is kind of like the "six degrees of separation" game. So, a primary source *is* the actual physical thing in question. A secondary source would be a reproduction of "the thing" either in a photograph, photocopy, or facsimile reproduction, or the observations of someone who had actually seen the physical thing. Tertiary sources would be the "friend of a friend" sort of thing, so the tertiary source would be (for example) an article written about someone's observations of the actual "thing". Does that make sense? Anyway, that's how I recall it. And, remember, there is no such thing as The One Truth around here! ;) Pax, Conchobar (the recently belted) - -- Best regards, Geordon mailto:gvantass@interaccess.com Your fortune: Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something." - Plato =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:13:11 -0800 (PST) From: Hillary Greenslade Subject: Re: [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate - --- moonlight_dancer@earthlink.net wrote: >Hi, >I've been asked to do a Celtic baby baptismal certificate.. >Help. Has anyone does any thing like that? >Celtic colors are generally bright green, red and yellow. Should I go for >something softer? >What else do you suggest to be included in the design? >It's due by Dec 5. >Thanks,Tamara I agree with the addition of a cross, and you may want to check with the parents, as some churches tend to use one or another form of the cross, so you could be domination specific. Other areas of symbology: * small baptismal font, could do something along the lines of a birdbath marbled look, * a white dove, often used to symbolize the holy ghost, * typically, Godparents are named, you could include their names, along with perhaps the names of the grandparents, in the text, * maybe add the name of the pastor/priest doing the ceremony, * last, you could have places for 'witnesses' to sign, they could be the pastor, godparents, or family members, be sure to provide the pen, so its in the right color ink and the same for all signatures. Again, I agree with the other, ask the parent what they would like, as they may have something in mind, and are just assuming you know. All the best. Hillary __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:58:05 +1100 From: Mark Calderwood Subject: [scribes]: rabbit pic Hi everyone, I'm looking for an illustration of a rabbit, preferably leaping, in a 12th century style, that would work with Winchester Bible style illumination. My library has come up empty, does anyone have a pic they can scan and send me or point me to one on the net? Thanks. Giles =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:01:05 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: celtic baby baptismal certificate Celtic colors can pretty much be emulated thusly: Verdigris: Use Chromium Oxide Green Malachite: Use Viridian plus Titanium White mixed to a medium light tint. Vermilion: Use Cadmium Red Medium Woad Blue: Use Indigo, but add some white to it because woad & indigo are dark colors. Ultramarine (rare use): Use modern Ultramarine, and add some white. Orpiment: Use Cadmium Yellow Medium Dark Brown drawing ink: Use Burnt Umber watercolor in your dip pen. Lead White: Use Titanium White Lampblack: Lampblack (or any carbon black) Purple: Mix some red & blue. Consider an alizarin or madder like color (check lightfastness rating! You want a HUE product rather than the real thing). Add a touch of white. If you are binding your own colors is is an extra thing to make some areas glossy, such as colored initials. These are WAY heavy on the binder, but add a hint of fine sugar or honey to make it flexible or it will crack away. Caution: Too much sweetener will cause the medium to be permanently soft and adhesive. Good luck! RanthulfR > moonlight_dancer@earthlink.net wrote: > > Hi, > > I've been asked to do a Celtic baby baptismal certificate.. > > Help. Has anyone does any thing like that? > > Celtic colors are generally bright green, red and yellow. Should I go > for something softer? > > What else do you suggest to be included in the design? > > It's due by Dec 5. > > Thanks, > Tamara > > > > =================================================================== To > unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line > and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any > additional text in the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts: Original Art & Prints for sale! Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:35:35 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Primary Source... was: vine colors Yup, that is why you have to be REALLY careful when using them in documentation. Be absolutely sure you have a good copy if it is a color copy, or that it wasn't a redrawing of the original (as was done a lot in the Victorian era, as they didn't have color cameras or color copiers). I believe there is an old TI article about just this type of thing... it was based on costuming resources, but it could also apply to C&I ones, too. By the way, for those who helped me with that mundane project I started the end of August, first part of September, I really appreciated your assistance (Colm, I think you were one of them), I will be posting the entire process from start to finish to my web site by the end of this month. I finally finished the project after 75 grueling hours of work... It did end up a totally awesome project, but I got paid about half of what I should have. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.insightbb.com Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} - -----Original Message----- I lost an argument on the subject with my wife, Lady Lucia Borromeo. I was certain that a particular style was period because I had seen an illustration of a painting in one of our costume books with the exact style of garb shown. She walked to one of her bookcases, pulled out an art book, and showed me a painting that was a facsimile of the original-- and it was quite different. For some reason the copier of the painting in the costume book used artistic license to alter several details of the original--yet the scholarly bibliography would have had one believe that the illustration shown was a copy not a redrawing. Colm Dubh > Paintings and illuminations can often be considered primary sources, but even they > are suspect, as they can be interpretations of the artist. > > Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 21:14:32 -0600 From: "Pafra & Scott Catledge" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Primary Source... was: vine colors I lost an argument on the subject with my wife, Lady Lucia Borromeo. I was certain that a particular style was period because I had seen an illustration of a painting in one of our costume books with the exact style of garb shown. She walked to one of her bookcases, pulled out an art book, and showed me a painting that was a facsimile of the original-- and it was quite different. For some reason the copier of the painting in the costume book used artistic license to alter several details of the original--yet the scholarly bibliography would have had one believe that the illustration shown was a copy not a redrawing. Colm Dubh > Paintings and illuminations can often be considered primary sources, but even they > are suspect, as they can be interpretations of the artist. > > Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL > Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.insightbb.com > Middle Kingdom > http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com > > {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} > > > > ============================================================ ======= > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:22:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: Re: [scribes]: rabbit pic Try Gaston Phoebus's Book of the Hunt. There are also some good modern books researching medieval hunting that have great pictures from a variety of manuscripts; my favorite is called "The Hawk and the Hound" (I think), and has a wonderful picture of the bow-equipped rabbit carrying the hunter hung by his feet from a stick over the bunny's shoulder. Another good source is the Luttrell Psalter, which has an entire warren of cavorting bunnies. Good luck in your search! Graidhne ni Ruaidh BMDL On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Mark Calderwood wrote: > Hi everyone, > I'm looking for an illustration of a rabbit, preferably leaping, in a 12th > century style, that would work with Winchester Bible style illumination. My > library has come up empty, does anyone have a pic they can scan and send me > or point me to one on the net? Thanks. > > Giles > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:32:27 -0800 (PST) From: Anna Troy Subject: [scribes]: link collection Founs a good link collection with manuscripts on-line divided after country, quite usefull. http://www.medievalarthistory.com/manuscripts.html Anna de Byxe ===== "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED to: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/crafts __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Anna Troy Subject: [scribes]: Pigments CD Iconofile might spam but they do have some neat stuff Check this out "Collecting and Using Mineral Pigments" by Lorena Babcock Moore Over 20 mineral pigments are described in this multimedia CD: Chemical composition, geology and artistic properties. Includes how-to instructions on grinding pigments, preparing medium and making egg tempera and watercolors. PRICE: $20.00 http://www.iconofile.com/cd.asp Anyone own this? Anna de Byxe ===== "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED to: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/crafts __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:44:35 -0800 (PST) From: Anna Troy Subject: [scribes]: gesso article I just found this, ON ILLUMINATION. An attempt to recover the method of GILDING ON VELLUM By Philip Mortimer December 1, 1903 http://www.eggtempera.com/v1ogov.html It's short but interesting and The Society of Painters in Tempera has other interesting things as well. :-) Anna de Byxe currently sitting at a College Library Info Desk ;-) ===== "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED to: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/crafts __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:28:49 -0800 (PST) From: Anna Troy Subject: [scribes]: video John Neal Books has a video http://www.johnnealbooks.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/c-Books_--_Illumination.html?L+scstore+hfxh4903ff0f580f+1039811272 Gilding for Calligraphers Video V14. Selecting and preparing vellum, slaking plaster, making gesso, gilding using loose leaf gold are all covered in this video from English scribe Sally Mae Joseph. Other topics include preparing gum ammoniac, gilding with transfer gold, painting with shell gold and color. 130 minutes, PAL version available. $ 49.00 Anna de Byxe ===== "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED to: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/crafts __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:33:37 -0200 From: alienor Subject: [scribes]: dyed vellum Does someone on the list have a handle on the use of dyed vellum? By that I mean that I think that the black vellum pieces, for example, were fairly late period (1470 for one) and at least one was done in Bruges. What about the use of other colors? When did the use of colored vellum start showing up? Thanks for any imput, Alienor =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:54:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" Subject: Re: [scribes]: rabbit pic Those might be too late for what Giles is looking for. The Aberdeen Bestiary has a couple of pictures of hares, but they're both sitting, rather than leaping. http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestiary_old/firstpag.html They are in the picture of the creation of the animals, and of Adam naming the animals. Margaret FitzWilliam > Try Gaston Phoebus's Book of the Hunt. There are also some good modern > books researching medieval hunting that have great pictures from a variety > of manuscripts; my favorite is called "The Hawk and the Hound" (I think), > and has a wonderful picture of the bow-equipped rabbit carrying the hunter > hung by his feet from a stick over the bunny's shoulder. Another good > source is the Luttrell Psalter, which has an entire warren of cavorting > bunnies. Good luck in your search! > > Graidhne ni Ruaidh > BMDL > > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Mark Calderwood wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > I'm looking for an illustration of a rabbit, preferably leaping, in a 12th > > century style, that would work with Winchester Bible style illumination. My > > library has come up empty, does anyone have a pic they can scan and send me > > or point me to one on the net? Thanks. > > > > Giles =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:30:45 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: dyed vellum At 10:33 AM 11/25/2002 -0200, you wrote: >Does someone on the list have a handle on >the use of dyed vellum? By that I mean that I >think that the black vellum pieces, for example, >were fairly late period (1470 for one) and at >least one was done in Bruges. >What about the use of other colors? When >did the use of colored vellum start showing up? There are extant Byzantine manuscripts dating to the 6th century on dyed vellum. There are extant Spanish manuscripts dating to the 9th century using dyed vellum - a lovely blue and some purple( see _Early Spanish Manuscript Illumination_ Georges Braziller). St Jerome, a commentator and translator of Biblical and theological works in his time, condemned the use of gold and silver inks on dyed vellum - he died in 420 so the practice must have been occurring at that time. The popularity of black pages went up in Flanders and France toward the end of SCA period. Personally, I don't know it's beginnings, however, the use of dyed vellum is completely within the SCA time period. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:55:18 -0800 (PST) From: Linda Nichols Subject: [scribes]: THANKS!! I just wanted to tell every one who responded to my question on vine colors.... THANKS!!! Your info is very valuable as well as most helpful. Thanks again for your help!!! Rosalinda of Castile BMDL AEthelmearc __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:23:45 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: [scribes]: My Project is Published on Web Greetings: I finally got my web site updated with the full process of my BIG mundane project I just finished. You can go to my site listed below (second site listed) and then click on Nobel Limited Company Project. Please tell me if you have problems viewing any of it. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.insightbb.com Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #88 ****************************