From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #84 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, November 14 2002 Volume 08 : Number 084 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Guilding questions [scribes]: Re: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Re: [scribes]: Guilding questions [scribes]: permacoll [scribes]: Permacoll, a Discourse Re: [scribes]: Guilding questions Re: [scribes]: Codices Illustres - redux [scribes]: re; panic Scroll [scribes]: ANother source for digital Manuscripts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:50:59 -0800 (PST) From: Linda Nichols Subject: [scribes]: Guilding questions Hi all... I also am kinda new to the list... I have been reading all the answers to guilding questions and I have a question of my own.... where is the best/most economical place to get patent leaf.... which is cheaper patent or loose leaf?? I've only guilded once (an awsome friend taught me and gave me material to start out with) and don't know where to buy the stuff. Thank you in advance... In service to the dream Rosalinda of Castile BMDL, AEthelmearc Pittsburgh, PA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:58:32 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Questions about calligraphy and illumination - --part1_135.1774b4b6.2b027118_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crystal Welcome to the list. You have received some really good answers so far, so I'll try not to repeat what has already been posted. I taught myself a lot of what I know about the scribal arts and know how difficult it can be. It is also quite rewarding. :-) I will recommend one book to you that would have made things so much easier if it had been available when I started in the scribal arts. The book is: _Calligraphy, Illumination and Heraldry_ by Patricia Lovett ISBN 0 7123 4680 5 I'm not left handed, but I have taught lefties. One of the ladies I am currently working with has found the booklet _Insights Into Left Handed Calligraphy_ most helpful. Another lady I worked with outside the SCA a few years ago found it easier to switch to using her right hand to do calligraphy. She said it made her concentrate more on forming the letters properly. > > 2. This concerns gilding: Every book explains gilding > differently, and I am thoroughly confused. It is a bit overwhelming at first, but the more you learn about it the more comfortable you get with it. Be patient and don't expect perfection. Just welcome it and revel in the accomplishment when it happens :-) When it doesn't, look at medieval illuminations and find the ones where the scribes had the same problem as you did. It doesn't fix the flaws, but it will give you some solace to know that scribes have been having the same problems for hundreds of years. :-) Second, is there a difference in buying gesso> > and making your own? Is one better or worse? If one > should buy it, what is a good brand? If one should > make it, does it matter what recipe is used? If so, > what recipe is best? IMHO over the long run it is better to make your own gesso. It is much cheaper and if you ever run out, all you have to do is run to the local hardware store to get the materials to make more. The best reason to make your own gesso is because it teaches you how gesso works. That allows you to tweak your gesso and be able to gild whenever the mood strikes as opposed to when the weather conditions match your gesso. The recipe I use is online at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2963/gilding.html but there are many different gesso recipes... it's a personal preference... like a lot of things in the scribal arts. > 3. This concerns paper: I do not want to use real > animal vellum due to its high cost, so I will be using > paper for my projects. What kind(s) of paper is best > for illumination? And from whom can they be bought? > I know weight and texture are important, especially if > the work is to be framed. When I use paper, I use 140lb hot press watercolor paper - 100% cotton - acid free. It is heavy enough not to cockle, or wrinkle, when it gets a little wet. It is also thick enough that mistakes can be gently scraped off with a craft knife fairly easily. You can find it at most art supply stores. Bristol board is another paper that some scribes use. It's less expensive than watercolor paper and is easier to find. Often department stores will carry it in the craft or office supply section. The big drawback to using it is that mistakes aren't as easy to fix. > I hope I have not loaded you with too many questions > at once. I shall probably have more in the future Oh goody :-) We like questions> > Yvianne AEthelmearc - --part1_135.1774b4b6.2b027118_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crystal

Welcome to the list. You have received some really good answers so far, so I'll try not to repeat what has already been posted.

I taught myself a lot of what I know about the scribal arts and know how difficult it can be. It is also quite rewarding. :-)  I will recommend one book to you that would have made things so much easier if it had been available when I started in the scribal arts. The book is:
_Calligraphy, Illumination and Heraldry_
by Patricia Lovett  ISBN  0 7123 4680 5 

I'm not left handed, but I have taught lefties. One of the ladies I am currently working with has found the booklet _Insights Into Left Handed Calligraphy_  most helpful. Another lady I worked with outside the SCA a few years ago found it easier to switch to using her right hand to do calligraphy. She said it made her concentrate more on forming the letters properly.



2. This concerns gilding: Every book explains gilding
differently, and I am thoroughly confused. 


It is a bit overwhelming at first, but the more you learn about it the more comfortable you get with it. Be patient and don't expect perfection. Just welcome it and revel in the accomplishment when it happens :-) When it doesn't, look at medieval illuminations and find the ones where the scribes had the same problem as you did. It doesn't fix the flaws, but it will give you some solace to know that scribes have been having the same problems for hundreds of years. :-)


Second, is there a difference in buying gesso

and making your own?  Is one better or worse?  If one
should buy it, what is a good brand?  If one should
make it, does it matter what recipe is used?  If so,
what recipe is best?



IMHO over the long run it is better to make your own gesso. It is much cheaper and if you ever run out, all you have to do is run to the local hardware store to get the materials to make more. The best reason to make your own gesso is because it teaches you how gesso works. That allows you to tweak your gesso and be able to gild whenever the mood strikes as opposed to when the weather conditions match your gesso. The recipe I use is online at      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2963/gilding.html  
but there are many different gesso recipes... it's a personal preference... like a lot of things in the scribal arts.

3.  This concerns paper:  I do not want to use real
animal vellum due to its high cost, so I will be using
paper for my projects.  What kind(s) of paper is best
for illumination?  And from whom can they be bought?
I know weight and texture are important, especially if
the work is to be framed. 


When I use paper, I use 140lb hot press watercolor paper - 100% cotton - acid free. It is heavy enough not to cockle, or wrinkle, when it gets a little wet. It is also thick enough that mistakes can be gently scraped off with a craft knife fairly easily. You can find it at most art supply stores. Bristol board is another paper that some scribes use. It's less expensive than watercolor paper and is easier to find. Often department stores will carry it in the craft or office supply section. The big drawback to using it is that mistakes aren't as easy to fix.


I hope I have not loaded you with too many questions
at once.  I shall probably have more in the future



Oh goody  :-) We like questions


Yvianne
AEthelmearc
 - --part1_135.1774b4b6.2b027118_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 07:23:15 -0800 (PST) From: Karen Kasper Subject: Re: [scribes]: Guilding questions - --0-811349164-1037114595=:71852 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I highly recommend Sepp Leaf for gold and gilding supplies. They have a lot of choices, reasonable prices and their service is terrific. They're located in NYC but do mail order. On the web they're at http://www.seppleaf.com/, though you'll have to call their toll-free phone line or send them e-mail to get a catalog and/or place an order. Arianna Linda Nichols wrote:Hi all... I also am kinda new to the list... I have been reading all the answers to guilding questions and I have a question of my own.... where is the best/most economical place to get patent leaf.... which is cheaper patent or loose leaf?? I've only guilded once (an awsome friend taught me and gave me material to start out with) and don't know where to buy the stuff. Thank you in advance... In service to the dream Rosalinda of Castile BMDL, AEthelmearc Pittsburgh, PA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. Karen Kasper "Good teaching is one-fourth preparation and three-fourths theater." Gail Godwin "To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains." Mary Pettibone Poole, A Glass Eye at a Keyhole, 1938 - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD - --0-811349164-1037114595=:71852 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I highly recommend Sepp Leaf for gold and gilding supplies.  They have a lot of choices, reasonable prices and their service is terrific.  They're located in NYC but do mail order.  On the web they're at http://www.seppleaf.com/, though you'll have to call their toll-free phone line or send them e-mail to get a catalog and/or place an order.

Arianna

 Linda Nichols <napa_linda@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hi all...

I also am kinda new to the list... I have been
reading all the answers to guilding questions and I
have a question of my own.... where is the best/most
economical place to get patent leaf.... which is
cheaper patent or loose leaf??
I've only guilded once (an awsome friend taught me
and gave me material to start out with) and don't know
where to buy the stuff.

Thank you in advance...

In service to the dream
Rosalinda of Castile
BMDL, AEthelmearc
Pittsburgh, PA


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U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
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Karen Kasper

"Good teaching is one-fourth preparation and three-fourths theater." Gail Godwin

"To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains."
Mary Pettibone Poole, A Glass Eye at a Keyhole, 1938


Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD - --0-811349164-1037114595=:71852-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:08:47 -0700 From: Helm-Clark Subject: [scribes]: permacoll > If anyone wants a discourse on Permacoll and how best to > apply it, let me know. > > >If the Permacoll is what you used on it, please > >discourse on! I will second Arianna on that. You have gotten my attention (and being in the middle of changing jobs, that's hard to do) So please, discourse on! ttfn Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:09:00 -0500 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: [scribes]: Permacoll, a Discourse Okay, here goes: Permacoll Mirror Gloss Paper Size is a thoroughly modern adhesive for gold that is flexible enough for paper, yet yields a mirror finish. I don't know the specific ingredients, but is is certainly some kind of an acrylic or plastic. One layer will give a very shiny flat finish, not quite mirror, but shinier than most flat sizes. Several layers, or a layer on top of a thick coat of gesso (the kind you get to do canvases-Liquitex, e.g.) will give a raised, mirror finish. My observations of this stuff is that as it dries, the surface contracts, which is what makes it so smooth and shiny. This also means that a thick layer will pucker as it dries, as the outside dries and contracts while the inside is still moist. (I hope this makes sense) Therefore, one needs to use fairly thin coats. The consistency is like a very viscous heavy syrup, so getting just the right thickness takes some practice. The first layer is not too difficult, and when dry, one may apply gold fairly soon, say an hour or so after painting. To get the mirror finish, one needs to apply at least one more layer, and here's the part that often gets messed up: after the second layer, wait at least 8 hours before applying either the leaf, or another layer of permacoll. If it's not *completely* dry, the surface will wrinkle. However, if you wait too long, more than one day or so, the permacoll is no longer sticky enough to accept the leaf (not a real big deal, just add another layer of size, let dry, then leaf it) My biggest downfall is looking at the size, thinking "It's been three hours, and it LOOKS like it's dry..." Then, once I get the leaf on, I get lots of little wrinkles, because the size was still soft. Once you get the size dry enough, cut your gold (I use patent, and usually I cut the sheet in half, then in strips) and apply to the size. With patent, press down on the tissue backing, rolling your finger a bit so the gold sticks, lift the tissue, and you should have the gold covering the size with a bit of overlap. If any size is still visible in that area, repeat the process. Now place glassine over the gold, and burnish gently but firmly paying special attention to edges. Once you're satisfied that it's well adhered, remove the glassine. I like to let this sit for a few minutes, then I take a piece of silk, and lightly rub over the gilded area. Voila, a mirror finish! If necessary, go back and touch up any spots that didn't take the gold. Notice, I didn't need to breathe on the gold to get it sticky. When touching up spots it may help to breathe on them if they are being stubborn. Also notice, often only one layer of gold is needed, particularly areas that are small, like leaves and dots. Finally, no final burnishing directly on the gold is needed, just a buffing with silk. The burnishing through glassine is strictly to get the gold adhered, and there are many tools that will work, I find a dogtooth agate burnisher to work best for me, but tumbles stones, or press type burnishers may work equally well. It's important to play with this stuff a bit until you're comfortable with it, but once you get the hang of it, it's really neat. Using Permacoll has cut my gilding time by at least two thirds. As I said, www.nycentralart.com carries it. Also, the German catalog (I forget the name) that Bridget recommended has it (there it's called Kolner Miniatum, or something like that) Both places sell yellow or clear in 50 ml. bottles. Anyone who can make it to Birka here in Stonemarche Feb. 3 can buy it from me in half ounce bottles. Whew. Any questions? Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, EK (NH) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:13:12 -0500 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Guilding questions >where is the best/most > economical place to get patent leaf.... which is > cheaper patent or loose leaf?? Most places charge about the same price, I like www.easyleaf.com Patent is more expensive, but only by two or three dollars per book of 25 leaves. Generally, you'll pay 30-33 dollars per book. If you can afford to get a lot, it's much cheaper in bulk. I'll be selling books of patent leaf at Birka (Stonemarche, NH) for 25 dollars per book (23k) Chiara =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:27:43 -0600 From: "Pafra & Scott Catledge" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Codices Illustres - redux I got my copy for $48 by doing an electronic order at my local B&N. Colm Dubh - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fionnseach du Lochielle" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:38 PM Subject: [scribes]: Codices Illustres - redux > Greetings all: > > Well, I now know why everyone was having such a reaction to the Codices Illustres.....I am the happy owner of my own copy...and it is absolutely wonderful! It's also a good read, to boot. > > I managed to find my copy at Borders (sorry, it was in Boston) and also noticed that the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston also carries it - for the same price, which was $59.99. Don't know if people are haveing any problems locating a copy or not, but thought I'd share my info. > > Dreaming calligraphic fantasies, > Sister Fionnseach > > -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- > ~=Sister Fionnseach du Lochielle=~ Not to have, but to give; > Chronicler/Web - Shire of Dernehealde Not to take, but to receive. > Combat Scribe - Barony Middle Marches > Pursuivant-at-Large - Middle Kingdom Protege of Master Brusten de Bearsul > > > ============================================================ ======= > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:38:35 -0500 From: Lucianadi@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: re; panic Scroll Greetings! Thank you all for the great suggestions on avoiding paint crackage (if that's even a word) over gold leaf!! I experimented with garlic juice, and the paint still cracked. However, the garlic juice was from a jar of garlic, which has water and some other acid ingredient, which may be the problem. I also tried painting in the cracks, but it still cracked more. Honey worked beautifully!! I'd like to experiment more with garlic, tempera and gum arabic sometime when I'm not on deadline!! Thanks again for all your assistance! Luciana =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:12:12 -0500 From: Fionnseach du Lochielle Subject: [scribes]: ANother source for digital Manuscripts This came across one of my other lists....thought others here might like to know about it (if you didn't already :) The Manuscript Department of the University Library, Lund, in collaboration with NetLab of Lund University Libraries, is digitizing and making accessible on line its collection of Medieval manuscripts. http://laurentius.lub.lu.se/ Your servant, Sister Fionnseach - -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- ~=Sister Fionnseach du Lochielle=~ Not to have, but to give; Chronicler/Web - Shire of Dernehealde Not to take, but to receive. Combat Scribe - Barony Middle Marches Pursuivant-at-Large - Middle Kingdom Protege of Master Brusten de Bearsul =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #84 ****************************