From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #83 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, November 12 2002 Volume 08 : Number 083 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Re: [scribes]:Questions about calligraphy and illumination RE: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination [scribes]: left-handed calligraphy book Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class Re: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Re: [scribes]:Questions about calligraphy and illumination [scribes]: left hand : Questions about calligraphy and illumination Re: [scribes]: ouch. Re: [scribes]:Questions about calligraphy and illumination ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:03:12 -0500 From: Fionnseach du Lochielle Subject: Re: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Welcome to the list Crystal! You have come to the right place with your questions. :) With the number of people we have here, I'm sure that you'll get the help and answers you need/are looking for. Being a righty myself, I can't really help you with your first question, although I do believe we have some rather successful 'sinister scribes' who can. (Sinister, in this case simply refers to left-handed. ;) About gilding: Yup, ask any three scribes how to do gilding and you'll likey get about a dozen answers... ;) The main difference between Patent and Loose gold leaf, is that Patent Leaf is on a backing sheet. Very helpful when you're just learning how to handle gold leaf. (Being that I'm currently learning how myself and am using Patent Leaf.) It helps keep the gold from wanting to fold up on itself so much - at least in my limited understanding of it. RE using gesso vs. size: You got it in one! One other thing to remember (and it's fairly important) is that when you use a size for your ground, you shouldn't really burnish the gold afterwards. Now, with this in mind, I have done a light burnish on leaf applied to a commercial size that I have, using the back of my fingernail...or with a bit of the paper backing from the Patent Leaf. It did pretty good, at least in my opinion. I haven't yet used a gesso ground, mainly because I haven't made any yet. A good book that I would (highly) recommend on gilding is _The_Gilded_Page_ by Kathleen Whitley (who is also a member of the SCA). She discusses not only the history of gold leaf on manuscripts, but also gives some good info on what to use for which effect. So far as I know, you can use patent or loose gold with either type of gilding (gesso or size). While there are differences in gold leaf, it mainly depends on where you get it from. Some leaf (either patent or loose) will be thicker than others, but it is not something that is distinctly different between patent or loose gold. As for which recipe is best? That's one that will definitely get you many different (and differing!) answers. Every scribe has their favorite. :) Same thing goes pretty much for paper. One bit of common ground on paper is that many of us use Bristol (it's a weight/type - not particularly a brand name). Some will recommend that you use only a vellum finish (has a slight tooth and is a cold press finish) and others will swear by smooth (a hot press finish - gives a smoother surface). Personally, I like using the vellum finish myself, but I also (thanks to the wonderful suggestion of Meisterin Katarina) use a thinned black gouache instead of ink as it has more body and I can get the absolute best control with it....no bleed out what so ever. :) Well, hopefully, I've answered some of your questions...if not caused more of them...or gotten you more confused. Your servant, Sister Fionnseach - -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- ~=Sister Fionnseach du Lochielle=~ Not to have, but to give; Chronicler/Web - Shire of Dernehealde Not to take, but to receive. Combat Scribe - Barony Middle Marches Pursuivant-at-Large - Middle Kingdom Protege of Master Brusten de Bearsul =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:59:16 EST From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]:Questions about calligraphy and illumination - --part1_102.1e94f82d.2b01ba74_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/2002 6:49:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, aurora_angelofmusic@yahoo.com writes: Welcome to the list! I don't know anything about teaching left-handed calligraphy, but I might be able to help with the other two questions: > 2. This concerns gilding: Every book explains gilding > differently, and I am thoroughly confused. > First, is there a difference between using Patent Gold > Leaf and Loose Gold Leaf? If so, what? Patent Gold leaf is adhered to the backing paper when you get. It works like rub-off gold: you place your size or gesso down on the paper, then you lay the sheet of gold over the top of it with the gold down and the baking up. Then you rub a burnishing stone over it. The gold comes off the paper and sticks to the size or gesso (in theory anyway, not always in practice with the gesso.) Loose gold leaf is harder to work with, but gets better results in the end. Loose leaf you must either cut off a chunk, or tear off a chunk larger than the area you are guilding. Pick that piece of gold up with tweezers and lay it on the size or gesso and push it down with a poofy brush so it sticks. Then you lay a piece of glassine paper (like the stamps come in from the post office) and burnish it with a smooth stone. Once you can see the outline of where the gold is supposed to be sticking through the glassine paper, you remove the paper and brush the excess gold away with a stiff brush. You can then make the gold shiny by gently burnishing the gold directly without the paper on it. (this last step works better when using gesso, rather than adhesive size.) I assume that > using gesso produces a raised image and using gold > size produces a flat image; is that correct? Yes, that is exactly correct. Another period alternative for flat guilding is using glair (egg whites). Does > patent gold only used with gold size and loose leaf > only used with gesso, or visa versa, or are they > interchangeable? They are interchangeable. But I have not had very good results with the Patent Leaf on the gesso. Both work equally well on commercial adhesive size. Not sure about glair, since I have not tried that yet. I think the problem with the Patent leaf on the gesso, is that I take too long to get the gold stuck to the gesso after I blow moist, hot air on the gesso. It dries too much and does not stick. Plus I like using the heavy weight gold leaf (it does not curl around the tweezers quite so badly as the really thin stuff) and the Patent gold is thinner and sometimes the burnishing rubs the gold off the gesso, if I burnish too much. Is there a difference in quality, > etc...? Personally I think the leaf gives you a brighter shine and a more even coverage. But I like using the Patent gold when I am in a hurry or have really large areas to guild. It goes on quicker and you don't have to worry about it wrapping around the tweezers or folding over on istelf, etc. Try them both, see what you like. I use both regularly. Second, is there a difference in buying gesso > and making your own? Is one better or worse? If one > should buy it, what is a good brand? If one should > make it, does it matter what recipe is used? If so, > what recipe is best? I would say making it is better. I tried the commercial, acrylic based, store-bought gesso and it does not work. It will raise up, but you have to paint size on top of it to make the gold stick. Making your old is not hard, especially if you have a source for calcium carbonate and don't have to slake plaster to make that. (someone else will need to post how to slake plaster, I have not done that yet.) Here is the recipe that I use, that works when the humidity levels are right: 1 Tablespoon slaked plaster (calcium carbonate or calcium sulfate) pinch of Armenian Bole (or a red pigment) for coloring pink (Mix the above ingredients in a motar with a pestle) Then add: 1 tsp hide glue (you can get this at hardware stores usually- also called rabbit glue) 2 tsp warm water 6-12 drops of warm honey (this is where humidity comes in. Place a few drops in, try the mixture and see if the gold sticks. If not, add a couple more drops and try again until you get enough honey in to make the gold stick.) Mix these ingredients thouroughly. (The recipe says to cover the gesso and let it stand and mature for 1 or 2 weeks. I have never done this due to time constraints. I always mix it up and then try to use it right away. Not sure what difference letting it set will do.) This stuff is tempermental. Don't be discouraged if it doesn't work. So far, I have gotten two batches out of six to work really well. Temperature and humidity definately affect whether it sticks or not. After you have it mixed, you paint the gesso on the areas you want to gild. Let it dry for a while (you can let it dry for a day or more, or as little as 30 minutes). It must be dried solid before you start burnishing, unless you are going to imprint designs in the gold. After it is dry, burnish the gesso with a smooth stone until you get a mirror finish. Sand out any bumps or bubbles before you start burnishing to get the surface smooth. Take your time with this. The smoother you get the surface, and the more like a mirror you can make it, the more shiny your gold will be. When satisfied, take a straw and gently blow moist air on the area you want to place the gold on. Have the piec of gold ready to stick before you apply the air. The air is what makes the gesso sticky. Lay the gold on the gesso and push down with a poofy brush. Then you can burnish either directly on the gold, or over glassine paper (I like the paper for this step). Brush away the excess gold. Burnish the gold gently to lay down rough edges and make it shine. > 3. This concerns paper: I do not want to use real > animal vellum due to its high cost, so I will be using > paper for my projects. What kind(s) of paper is best > for illumination? And from whom can they be bought? > I know weight and texture are important, especially if > the work is to be framed. I use bristol board usually, vellum surface, not the smooth surface. Lots of people also use Arches cold-pressed or even hot-pressed paper. Depends on how much tooth you want. I like a smoother paper, rather than a rougher one. Most art stores have all three. You want it a little thick, at least 60 lb I would say. Thicker is better, especially when doing gilding with gesso. But over 140 lb might be too thick. The paint you use will also determine if you want a lot of tooth or not so much. Water colors need a bit more, acrylics a bit less, guache and period pigments are in between. In Altantia we advise new scribes to start out on vellum surface bristol board. You can find it at Paul's, Michael's, Hungate's, Walmart (sometimes), Office Max (sometimes) and any good art supply store. Costs 6 to 12 dollars depending on the size you get and your region for a 25 page packet. > I hope I have not loaded you with too many questions > at once. I shall probably have more in the future > :)Thank you for your time! > > Sincerely, > Crystal Cartwright > Hope this helps, Brandy (Lady Brandwyn Alston of the Rift, Scrivener Royal Atlantia) - --part1_102.1e94f82d.2b01ba74_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/2002 6:49:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, aurora_angelofmusic@yahoo.com writes:


Welcome to the list!

I don't know anything about teaching left-handed calligraphy, but I might be able to help with the other two questions:


2. This concerns gilding: Every book explains gilding
differently, and I am thoroughly confused.  
First, is there a difference between using Patent Gold
Leaf and Loose Gold Leaf?  If so, what?


Patent Gold leaf is adhered to the backing paper when you get. It works like rub-off gold: you place your size or gesso down on the paper, then you lay the sheet of gold over the top of it with the gold down and the baking up. Then you rub a burnishing stone over it. The gold comes off the paper and sticks to the size or gesso (in theory anyway, not always in practice with the gesso.)

Loose gold leaf is harder to work with, but gets better results in the end. Loose leaf you must either cut off a chunk, or tear off a chunk larger than the area you are guilding. Pick that piece of gold up with tweezers and lay it on the size or gesso and push it down with a poofy brush so it sticks. Then you lay a piece of glassine paper (like the stamps come in from the post office) and burnish it with a smooth stone. Once you can see the outline of where the gold is supposed to be sticking through the glassine paper, you remove the paper and brush the excess gold away with a stiff brush. You can then make the gold shiny by gently burnishing the gold directly without the paper on it. (this last step works better when using gesso, rather than adhesive size.)

 I assume that
using gesso produces a raised image and using gold
size produces a flat image; is that correct?


Yes, that is exactly correct. Another period alternative for flat guilding is using glair (egg whites).


 Does
patent gold only used with gold size and loose leaf
only used with gesso, or visa versa, or are they
interchangeable?

They are interchangeable. But I have not had very good results with the Patent Leaf on the gesso. Both work equally well on commercial adhesive size. Not sure about glair, since I have not tried that yet. I think the problem with the Patent leaf on the gesso, is that I take too long to get the gold stuck to the gesso after I blow moist, hot air on the gesso. It dries too much and does not stick. Plus I like using the heavy weight gold leaf (it does not curl around the tweezers quite so badly as the really thin stuff) and the Patent gold is thinner and sometimes the burnishing rubs the gold off the gesso, if I burnish too much.

Is there a difference in quality,

etc...?


Personally I think the leaf gives you a brighter shine and a more even coverage. But I like using the Patent gold when I am in a hurry or have really large areas to guild. It goes on quicker and you don't have to worry about it wrapping around the tweezers or folding over on istelf, etc. Try them both, see what you like. I use both regularly.

Second, is there a difference in buying gesso
and making your own?  Is one better or worse?  If one
should buy it, what is a good brand?  If one should
make it, does it matter what recipe is used?  If so,
what recipe is best?


I would say making it is better. I tried the commercial, acrylic based, store-bought gesso and it does not work. It will raise up, but you have to paint size on top of it to make the gold stick.

Making your old is not hard, especially if you have a source for calcium carbonate and don't have to slake plaster to make that. (someone else will need to post how to slake plaster, I have not done that yet.) Here is the recipe that I use, that works when the humidity levels are right:

1 Tablespoon slaked plaster (calcium carbonate or calcium sulfate)
pinch of Armenian Bole (or a red pigment) for coloring pink

(Mix the above ingredients in a motar with a pestle)
Then add:
1 tsp hide glue (you can get this at hardware stores usually- also called rabbit glue)
2 tsp warm water
6-12 drops of warm honey (this is where humidity comes in. Place a few drops in, try the mixture and see if the gold sticks. If not, add a couple more drops and try again until you get enough honey in to make the gold stick.)

Mix these ingredients thouroughly. (The recipe says to cover the gesso and let it stand and mature for 1 or 2 weeks. I have never done this due to time constraints. I always mix it up and then try to use it right away. Not sure what difference letting it set will do.)

This stuff is tempermental. Don't be discouraged if it doesn't work. So far, I have gotten two batches out of six to work really well. Temperature and humidity definately affect whether it sticks or not.

After you have it mixed, you paint the gesso on the areas you want to gild. Let it dry for a while (you can let it dry for a day or more, or as little as 30 minutes). It must be dried solid before you start burnishing, unless you are going to imprint designs in the gold. After it is dry, burnish the gesso with a smooth stone until you get a mirror finish. Sand out any bumps or bubbles before you start burnishing to get the surface smooth. Take your time with this. The smoother you get the surface, and the more like a mirror you can make it, the more shiny your gold will be. When satisfied, take a straw and gently blow moist air on the area you want to place the gold on. Have the piec of gold ready to stick before you apply the air. The air is what makes the gesso sticky. Lay the gold on the gesso and push down with  a poofy brush. Then you can burnish either directly on the gold, or over glassine paper (I like the paper for this step). Brush away the excess gold. Burnish the gold gently to lay down rough edges and make it shine.

3.  This concerns paper:  I do not want to use real
animal vellum due to its high cost, so I will be using
paper for my projects.  What kind(s) of paper is best
for illumination?  And from whom can they be bought?
I know weight and texture are important, especially if
the work is to be framed.  
I use bristol board usually, vellum surface, not the smooth surface. Lots of people also use Arches cold-pressed or even hot-pressed paper. Depends on how much tooth you want. I like a smoother paper, rather than a rougher one. Most art stores have all three. You want it a little thick, at least 60 lb I would say. Thicker is better, especially when doing gilding with gesso. But over 140 lb might be too thick. The paint you use will also determine if you want a lot of tooth or not so much. Water colors need a bit more, acrylics a bit less, guache and period pigments are in between. In Altantia we advise new scribes to start out on vellum surface bristol board. You can find it at Paul's, Michael's, Hungate's, Walmart (sometimes), Office Max (sometimes) and any good art supply store. Costs 6 to 12 dollars depending on the size you get and your region for a 25 page packet.

I hope I have not loaded you with too many questions
at once.  I shall probably have more in the future
:)Thank you for your time!

Sincerely,
Crystal Cartwright


Hope this helps,
Brandy
(Lady Brandwyn Alston of the Rift, Scrivener Royal Atlantia) - --part1_102.1e94f82d.2b01ba74_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:13:37 -0500 From: ESTAVASH@cs.com Subject: RE: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Well, I know there are others who are better qualified to answer your second and third questions, but as far as the left-handed thing, I can speak from personal experience. Here's my method... It's one of many, but for some people it works very well, and hopefully it may help. First of all, do you write like a normal leftie?  Most lefties crook their hands a little, so that if you were to get an arial view of your writing, the angle would look a bit like this: \  \   \ abc\ I hope this makes sense-- the point of the pen would be where you would start writing the "d", and the blunt end would be leaning toward the upper left hand corner. Some lefties write so that the eraser end would be leaning toward the lower left-- if you're one of these, I'm not sure I can help you. If the pen is leaning parallel with the line that you're writing, see if you can crook your hand just a bit more, so the eraser end is above the line.  If you can do this comfortably, then you'll have no trouble. You can also angle the paper to get the pen in the right position, rather than making the angle with your hand. As long as the pen is angled toward the upper left corner of the paper, it will work. The principle behind this method is that if you push a pen away from where you are gripping it, the nib will sputter, scratch and leak.  If you draw the tip towards your hand, it will flow smoothly. All the historical hands are written so that the angle "/" will be thin and the angle "\" will be fat, which leaves you with two choices: pull each fat stroke towards the lower right-hand corner (as right-handed people do, but which is extremely difficult for many lefties) or draw the stroke towards the upper left-hand corner. Once your hand is in the right position, you can follow the instructions from any right-handed book-- the only difference being that you do it all backwards. If an arrow points down, draw the stroke up instead. If it points left, pull your pen right.  For the letter "a", you would start with the tail at the lower right-hand corner, and draw the first stroke towards the upper right-hand corner. It takes a little practice, but since a fellow scribe suggested this, I've been able to do any hand I like, and keep my hand in a natural, comfortable position. Even cursive scripts are possible, although you have to cheat a little to join the letters together.   This is a very rough guide, which doesn't take into account things like the pen angle required for different scripts, but once you get going, you can start working on the fine adjustments that will make it look just like the manuscripts.  Spacing is more of an issue with this method than with others, but it will get easier with practice. You also will have to be careful about smudging the ink with your hands-- I use fast drying ink and write small to alleviate the problem, or sometimes on a larger scroll I just write a few words and then go back to working on the illumination for a minute until the ink dries. If none of this works, there are some books out there on left-handed calligraphy which you might try. If you're interested, I'll see if I can dig them up and get the names and authors to you.  However, I have yet to find anyone who was able to make the techniques in the books work for them.  Hopefully you will also be able to find a teacher in your area. However, it really is possible to do it yourself, I promise!  I taught myself, and managed to become a pretty decent calligrapher. Good luck, Ellen Loch Salann, Artemisia Crystal Cartwright wrote: >Hello, I have just joined this list; and the >instructions said to write a letter of introduction to >the group.  I am not a member of the SCA (I have only >just discovered it), but I have great interest in >Calligraphy and Illumination.  I live in Texas and >know no one who practices the scribal arts, so I have >been trying to teach myself.  That, however presents >many problems, so I have some questions.  I would >greatly appreciate your insight! >1. I am left handed and I have discovered that it is >extremely difficult, if not impossible, to learn >calligraphy from a book with right-handed >instructions.  I did not realize the difference when I >bought the book; and while it does devote a page to >explaining left-handedness, all the instructions for >forming letters are from a right-handed angle. >Anyway, what I would ask is this: First, is there >anyone who lives in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of >Texas who could teach/explain left-handed calligraphy? >Second, can anyone recommend a book for left-handed >people? =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:29:27 +1100 From: "Annette Wilson" Subject: [scribes]: left-handed calligraphy book Greetings Crystal, I am left-handed and the best basic book I have found on the subject is called Left-handed Calligraphy by Vance Studley. It's a Dover publication and costs less than $10. It is particularly good because it doesn't tell you "the right way" to do it, but offers four alternatives depending on how you hold your pen in your normal writing position. It then shows four modern styles, but you can build on these once you have the method. I thoroughly recommend it. Leonie de Grey (Annette Wilson) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:35:47 -0800 (PST) From: Hillary Greenslade Subject: Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class - --- Sally Burnell wrote: > Greetings, > I am working on putting together a whitework class for an event here > locally that is next weekend. I would like any help or suggestions that > you may have on how to do this class. Having never taken such a class > myself, I am still trying to come up with some ideas for a format. > > Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you have to offer! > ~Saradwen > Midrealm > I like the suggestions I've seen to date, and have something to add to the one about using a bit of history. I did a class a while back on Bar Borders - -n- Ivy Vines, and was able to find a number of pictures in a range of dates. I put them on overhead sheets (costs a bit), and arranged them from earliest to latest. The class was able to analyze how the patterns were somewhat simple to begin, and as time progressed they could see how changes and complexities occurred. By seeing the additions in a progression, it took some of the fear factor out of looking at the very complex ones, as the students could now break it down to components that were more manageable. Cheers, Hillary __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:13:54 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Hi, Crystal! Welcome to the list! Boy, you sure came to the right place! This is a fabulous resource for scribal information, and even I, an experienced scribe, learn new things each time a new topic is discussed! OK, on to your primary question: Left handed calligraphy. Well, I am a righty, BUT, I was taught how to teach a "sinister scribe" (that being a left hander!). What you do is to turn the paper 45º and instead of writing side to side like we right handers do, you write up and down like the Orientals do, basically turning each letter on its side. What this forces you do to, actually, is to look at the letter more as a graphic art form and not as writing. You'll have to look very carefully at each pen stroke, but I tried this technique with my left hand, and by golly, it worked! Does that make any sense to you? If not, please let me know and maybe I can snail mail you an exemplar so that you can actually "see" what I am talking about. A lot of lefty scribes I know have begun to use this technique and they all swear by it. That way, they can still use right handed nibs and not search the world over for left handed nibs and they can still do calligraphy just fine. Paper: Well, you're going to find that each of us scribal types has our own personal preferences for paper. Some like Bristol, some like Pergamenata, some like spam vellum, some like other papers. Me? I absolutely swear by Arches 140 lb. hot press. Love it. Best stuff I have ever used. Don't get cold press - awful stuff. Hot press is what you want. And good 140 lb. weight that can take correction. The 90 lb. is too wimpy for me. Arches is great stuff for calligraphy AND illumination and as I said, can take correction beautifully. Hope that helps somewhat! And welcome again to this list! Glad to have you here! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 02:23:50 -0500 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: Re: [scribes]:Questions about calligraphy and illumination I'm only going to comment on gilding, I think what others have said about the other subjects covers what I would have said. Patent leaf is very lightly adhered to a tissue backing paper. The only thing actually holding it onto the tissue is humididy and pressure. It is best when stored at humidity of about 50%, less humidity and it may come loose from the tissue more easily (sometimes too easily) and more humidity may cause it to stick stubbornly to the tissue and not your size. I find it much easier to use than loose, I can cut strips just the size I want, and handle them with tweezers. I find using patent generates much less wasted gold, since I can cut the sizes more accurately, and handle the pieces with more confidence. Loose leaf may or may not be thicker than patent--when ordering it, look for the grams/1000 sheet weight. If I remember correctly, Cennini weight gold (that's the thickness referred to in Il Libro Dell'Arte, a period text on painting ) is about 27 or 28 g/1000 sheets. Most gold leaf is about 18 to 21 g/1000, though places like www.easyleaf.com usually have more weights available. "Double weight gold" is thicker as a general rule, but not by a double amount, as the name implies, only by about 10%. Still, it *is* thicker than the "average" leaf, and if you have no other information on weights, go with the double gold. I've been gilding for about 10 years, using every kind and type of leaf and size/gesso I can, and one thing I know for sure, Patent Leaf Burnishes Just As Well or Better than Loose Leaf! Another thing I know for sure: Composition(brass) Leaf is Icky. To clarify; I, like many others, started out with the Composition leaf, "because it's cheaper, and I don't want to waste my money practicing with the real thing" Real gold is soooooooo much easier to use that the time and frustration saved more than makes up for the cost of the actual leaf (time is money, after all :) ) The best and easiest size I've found is called Permacoll Mirror Gloss Paper Size, available from NY Central Art Supply www.nycentralart.com It takes some practice, as it works differently from all other sizes and gessoes I've used, but it gives amazing results in a fraction of the time--mirror finishes with one layer of leaf and *no* burnishing. A nice gesso recipe that is pretty easy to make is (do I have this right, Katarina?) 5 parts Acrylic Gesso (Liquitex, e.g.) 4 parts Acrylic Gloss Medium (Liquitex, again) 1 part sugar water (add a teaspoon of sugar to an ounce of water, mix well, let sit overnight) touch of red gouache, or Armenian bole for color Mix well, careful not to make bubbles. If anyone wants a discourse on Permacoll and how best to apply it, let me know. Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche EK (NH) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 23:26:32 -0800 From: ren.touch@juno.com Subject: [scribes]: left hand : Questions about calligraphy and illumination Greetings The advice below i just saw used tonight by a non scribal left hander she said until a teacher caught her she wrote upside down so she could see what she was doing and the 90 degree writing was as far as she could go. towards being "normalized " johann F BAO - An Tir > OK, on to your primary question: Left handed calligraphy. Well, > I am a> righty, BUT, I was taught how to teach a "sinister scribe" (that > being a> left hander!). What you do is to turn the paper 45º and instead of > writing> side to side like we right handers do, you write up and down like the > Orientals do, basically turning each letter on its side. What this > forces> you do to, actually, is to look at the letter more as a graphic art > form and> not as writing. You'll have to look very carefully at each pen > stroke, but I> tried this technique with my left hand, and by golly, it worked! > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 04:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: Melanie Subject: Re: [scribes]: ouch. - --- "Peter B. Steiner" wrote: > I know why you haven't received any feedback. When > I tried to > post a comment about your Spanish piece (which, by > the way, I like > very much) I received a warning that my attempt to > post had failed. > There's a programming glitch on the Thinkers.org > server. Well I'll be. I'll send that along to my friend... I'm not sure when he'll have the time to fix it, but I'm sure he'd be happy to know that there's something need fixin' (oh dear. the life of a computer guru... :) Thanks(:! ~Dionysia __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:11:39 -0800 (PST) From: Karen Kasper Subject: Re: [scribes]:Questions about calligraphy and illumination - --0-95940845-1037110299=:49764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kara Westfall wrote: The best and easiest size I've found is called Permacoll Mirror Gloss Paper Size, available from NY Central Art Supply www.nycentralart.com It takes some practice, as it works differently from all other sizes and gessoes I've used, but it gives amazing results in a fraction of the time--mirror finishes with one layer of leaf and *no* burnishing. If anyone wants a discourse on Permacoll and how best to apply it, let me know. No Burnishing????!!!!! I have struggled with gilding for years, to get a decent surface and even a half-way decent shine. The gilding on Johan's Pelican was some of the best I've ever seen. If the Permacoll is what you used on it, please discourse on! Arianna Karen Kasper "Good teaching is one-fourth preparation and three-fourths theater." Gail Godwin "To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains." Mary Pettibone Poole, A Glass Eye at a Keyhole, 1938 - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD - --0-95940845-1037110299=:49764 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

 Kara Westfall <kara_westfall@hotmail.com> wrote:

The best and easiest size I've found is called Permacoll Mirror Gloss Paper
Size, available from NY Central Art Supply www.nycentralart.com It takes
some practice, as it works differently from all other sizes and gessoes I've
used, but it gives amazing results in a fraction of the time--mirror
finishes with one layer of leaf and *no* burnishing.

If anyone wants a discourse on Permacoll and how best to apply it, let me
know.

No Burnishing????!!!!!  I have struggled with gilding for years, to get a decent surface and even a half-way decent shine.  The gilding on Johan's Pelican was some of the best I've ever seen.  If the Permacoll is what you used on it, please discourse on!

Arianna



Karen Kasper

"Good teaching is one-fourth preparation and three-fourths theater." Gail Godwin

"To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains."
Mary Pettibone Poole, A Glass Eye at a Keyhole, 1938


Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD - --0-95940845-1037110299=:49764-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #83 ****************************