From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #82 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, November 11 2002 Volume 08 : Number 082 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: ouch. Re: [scribes]: ouch. [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class Re: [scribes]: ouch. RE: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class [scribes]: Re: ouch Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class [scribes]: Clam shells Re: [scribes]: Clam shells [scribes]: dying paper with tea [scribes]: (FWD) auto-bounced email to scribes list Re: [scribes]: Clam shells [scribes]: update on stretching parchment [scribes]: Codices Illustres - redux [scribes]: [Scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Re: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 17:05:11 -0800 (PST) From: Melanie Subject: [scribes]: ouch. You know... It would have been nice if *someone* had at least commented that they looked at my web page that I posted... even to damn it with faint praise): There have been 174 hits to the page, and not one comment. ~Dionysia __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:08:32 -0500 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: Re: [scribes]: ouch. Hi Mel! I know why you haven't received any feedback. When I tried to post a comment about your Spanish piece (which, by the way, I like very much) I received a warning that my attempt to post had failed. There's a programming glitch on the Thinkers.org server. This was the error message: - ------------------- Warning: write failed: No space left on device (28) in Unknown on line 0 Warning: Failed to write session data (files). Please verify that the current setting of session.save_path is correct (/tmp) in Unknown on line 0 - ------------------- The System Administrator at Thinkers.org should be able to fix the problem. La Paz, :-) Pete Melanie wrote: > You know... It would have been nice if *someone* had > at least commented that they looked at my web page > that I posted... even to damn it with faint praise): > There have been 174 hits to the page, and not one > comment. > > ~Dionysia > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos > http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:16:54 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class Greetings, I am working on putting together a whitework class for an event here locally that is next weekend. I would like any help or suggestions that you may have on how to do this class. Having never taken such a class myself, I am still trying to come up with some ideas for a format. Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you have to offer! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:21:43 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: ouch. > I know why you haven't received any feedback. When I tried to > post a comment about your Spanish piece (which, by the way, I like > very much) I received a warning that my attempt to post had failed. > There's a programming glitch on the Thinkers.org server. I experienced the same problem. So it must be on your end that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. Talk to your systems administrator and see if that can be dealt with and fixed. I know it must be frustrating to know that you've had that many hits and no commentary. One of these days, I hope to have my own web page up. Just a matter of finding someone who's got the time to help me. Everyone's so doggone busy these days....(sigh) ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:27:52 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class Saradwen: One thing I have done that seems to help out a lot is to provide at least one or two already painted initial letters so people can see what it is like to do whitework inside a letterform. I also usually add a bar or two on the card. I usually use heavy Bristol board torn into quarters. I paint in the letters and the bars with red (I personally like Spectrum Red) and blue (I like Cobalt Blue Hue). This is a bit of work, but worth it in the long run. It also helps to have a black and white Xerox sheet of possible bar designs for the students. I usually provide the white paint for the class. I have also gone so far as to purchase some fairly good brushes and include them as price for the class, but that might be beyond your current means. Hope this helps you a bit. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.insightbb.com Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} - -----Original Message----- From: owner-scribes@castle.org [mailto:owner-scribes@castle.org] On Behalf Of Sally Burnell Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:17 PM To: SCA Scribes List Subject: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class Greetings, I am working on putting together a whitework class for an event here locally that is next weekend. I would like any help or suggestions that you may have on how to do this class. Having never taken such a class myself, I am still trying to come up with some ideas for a format. Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you have to offer! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:38:46 EST From: BessdeNevell@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class - --part1_16d.1554a166.2aff20b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/9/2002 8:29:05 PM Central Standard Time, helen.schultz@insightbb.com writes: > It also helps to have a black and white Xerox sheet of possible bar designs > for the students. I frequently use the designs provided in Meisterin's class in my work, it was a great thing to get. Many of the other scribes that I work with also have mentioned that they would like to have a similar thing for letter patterns to work from. My biggest problem is that I get stagnant in a design and use it to death, so offering a variety of patterns is a great help. Good luck with your class sis! Cheers! ~Bess Madame Elizabeth de Nevell Maison de Nevell - http://vantassle.freetcp.com - --part1_16d.1554a166.2aff20b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/9/2002 8:29:05 PM Central Standard Time, helen.schultz@insightbb.com writes:

It also helps to have a black and white Xerox sheet of possible bar designs for the students.


I frequently use the designs provided in Meisterin's class in my work, it was a great thing to get.  Many of the other scribes that I work with also have mentioned that they would like to have a similar thing for letter patterns to work from.

My biggest problem is that I get stagnant in a design and use it to death, so offering a variety of patterns is a great help.

Good luck with your class sis!

Cheers!

~Bess


Madame Elizabeth de Nevell
Maison de Nevell - http://vantassle.freetcp.com - --part1_16d.1554a166.2aff20b6_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:22:52 -0600 From: Garret Bitker Subject: Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class At 09:16 PM 11/9/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings, > > I am working on putting together a whitework class for an event here >locally that is next weekend. I would like any help or suggestions that you >may have on how to do this class. Having never taken such a class myself, I >am still trying to come up with some ideas for a format. You could talk a bit about the 1. History (what is whitework and what time periods was this style used for) 2. Tools (what brushes and paints work at least some examples) 3. Techniques (paint consistency and line thickness control are important) 4. Designs (you can have some designs but encourage them to go to the source.. look in manuscripts that have whitework and come up with their own interpretations) 5. Give them some play time, that way you can watch them work and give them individual pointers (some will need more than others) Good Luck, Gevehard =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:00:51 -0500 From: "ailith" Subject: [scribes]: Re: ouch Greetings, Saradwen. I would be happy to assist you in getting a website up. I am busy with classes right now, but Christmas break is coming up and I'm sure I can find the time during my month off of school to sit down with you to work on designing a site to showcase your work. With regards, ailith - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sally Burnell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: ouch. > > I know why you haven't received any feedback. When I tried to > > post a comment about your Spanish piece (which, by the way, I like > > very much) I received a warning that my attempt to post had failed. > > There's a programming glitch on the Thinkers.org server. > > I experienced the same problem. So it must be on your end that something is > wrong and needs to be fixed. > > Talk to your systems administrator and see if that can be dealt with and > fixed. I know it must be frustrating to know that you've had that many hits > and no commentary. > > One of these days, I hope to have my own web page up. Just a matter of > finding someone who's got the time to help me. Everyone's so doggone busy > these days....(sigh) > > ~Saradwen > Midrealm > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:48:13 EST From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Need help/suggestions for teaching a class - --part1_51.27203c03.2aff3f0d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Saradwen! I was able to attend Duchess Jana's class on Whitework / Diapering at Pennsic this summer, and it was rather well-taught, I think. Primarily there were materials provided for all - a brush, a card with one red and one blue bar each.... Maybe you could contact her, or Mistress Michel (who is on this list) might be able to provide you with more details? Whitework and diapering is one lesson I'd like to run at the scriptorium I run over here in An Dubh sometime, but not at this moment. Currently I'm going over uber-basics, such as hiding brushstrokes, and mixing paints with the attendees (incl. a couple of private lessons since). When I do get around to teaching that lesson, I'll let you know how it went.... Good luck in teaching it - let us know how it went! - --Kayleigh - --part1_51.27203c03.2aff3f0d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Saradwen!

I was able to attend Duchess Jana's class on Whitework / Diapering at Pennsic this summer, and it was rather well-taught, I think. Primarily there were materials provided for all - a brush, a card with one red and one blue bar each....

Maybe you could contact her, or Mistress Michel (who is on this list) might be able to provide you with more details?

Whitework and diapering is one lesson I'd like to run at the scriptorium I run over here in An Dubh sometime, but not at this moment. Currently I'm going over uber-basics, such as hiding brushstrokes, and mixing paints with the attendees (incl. a couple of private lessons since). When I do get around to teaching that lesson, I'll let you know how it went....

Good luck in teaching it - let us know how it went!

--Kayleigh - --part1_51.27203c03.2aff3f0d_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:10:01 +1100 From: Christine Robertson Subject: [scribes]: Clam shells Duibheasa asked: >I am assuming clam shells are >period palettes, but does anyone have any references to the actual usage of >shells besides pictures? Page 64 of "Painters" in the _Medieval Craftsmen_ series from the British Museum Press (Paul Binsky) has a photo of an oyster shell with traces of pigment (quite solid traces, too -- it's about 1/4 full) which is probably 14th C, found in Boyton Church, Wiltshire. These series of books are Wonderful. Get 'em if you can. Also cheap. - --Yseult de Lacy - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chris Robertson Yseult de Lacy, OL Lane Cove, Sydney NSW Barony of Rowany Australia http://goldgryph.virtualave.net Lochac =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 07:58:00 -0800 (PST) From: Tamberlin Subject: Re: [scribes]: Clam shells Do you know where one could find these books? Tamberlin Northkeep, Ansteorra (aka Tulsa, OK) - --- Christine Robertson wrote: > Duibheasa asked: > >I am assuming clam shells are > >period palettes, but does anyone have any > references to the actual usage of > >shells besides pictures? > > Page 64 of "Painters" in the _Medieval Craftsmen_ > series from the British > Museum Press (Paul Binsky) has a photo of an oyster > shell with > traces of pigment (quite solid traces, too -- it's > about 1/4 full) which > is probably 14th C, found in Boyton Church, > Wiltshire. > > These series of books are Wonderful. Get 'em if you > can. Also cheap. > > --Yseult de Lacy > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Chris Robertson > Yseult de Lacy, OL > Lane Cove, Sydney NSW > Barony of Rowany > Australia http://goldgryph.virtualave.net > Lochac > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any > additional text in > the body. > ===== - ---------------------------------------------- Friends help you move. Best friends help you move bodies. - ---bumpersticker __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:56:31 +0100 From: merlyn@virulent.de Subject: [scribes]: dying paper with tea Greetings all, I have some questions I wonder if anyone out there can answer. It's about dying pergamenata with tea, we were able to obtain white pergamenata and are thinking about dying it with tea. We tried one test piece and the colour is beautiful but the paper , of course ripples, I first tried the tack it on board to stretch it but the tacks ripped, has anyone had success with bulldog clips and board to stretch the paper? I know that for water colour paper you can stick the paper down with sticky brow paper tape, my dad did this and has a lot of success but then you have to cut away the paper with the brown tape so it will waste the pergamenata and we are trying to avoid that, I am looking for other options that won't damage the paper as it dries and stretches out. The next question is does anyone out there know already if the tannins in the tea have adverse effects on paper specif. Pergamenata? Does Pergamenata have two equal sides or does it as paper in general have a right and wrong side? and lastly, I have heard that you can iron the paper flat, I tried this and the paper became very brittle, but we are not sure if that's the tea or the heat or both? I ironed it while it was still damp as well, and wondered if that also effected the paper adversely.Does anyone out there have experience ironing Pergamenata ( with an iron) as opposed to trying to flatten it by weights? Can you iron the paper while it is still damp or do you need to wait until it's 100% dry first? How hot does the iron need to be? anyway help would be greatly appreciated. YIS Bridget Greywolf - --- Bridget Greywolf, AoA2, OT Used to live in Ar n-Eilean-ne now residing in Drachenwald House Blackwood, daughter to Lord Cealian Of Moray MKA: Fiona Messer, Germany =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:58:45 -0800 From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: (FWD) auto-bounced email to scribes list Please reply to sender, not to me. postmaster@castle.org - ------- Forwarded Message Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:33:39 -0500 From: Lucianadi@aol.com To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Help!! Cracked paint! Message-ID: <57BB28A9.68420316.026E42F2@aol.com> Greetings! I'm in a panic over a scroll with a tight deadline. Some of the paint cracks as it dries! Aaaahhh! I'm using Windsor & Newton goauche over 12K white gold leaf on raised gesso sottile (the traditional type with lead). The paint seems to only be cracking on the areas where a solid section is painted over a raised area (painted gemstones as from the 15th century Italian style). The sections with less paint seem to be fine. I will also need to paint some solid sections over 23-3/4K deep gold, but want to resolve this issue before continuing. I've tried scraping the paint and gold off, smoothing the cracked surface, and re-applying, but the results were exactly the same. Any ideas? Your assistance is greatly appreciated! Luciana Caid - ------- End of Forwarded Message =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:01:06 -0800 (PST) From: Hillary Greenslade Subject: Re: [scribes]: Clam shells - --- Tamberlin wrote: > Do you know where one could find these books? > > Tamberlin > Northkeep, Ansteorra > (aka Tulsa, OK) > > --- Christine Robertson > wrote: > > Duibheasa asked: > > >I am assuming clam shells are > > >period palettes, but does anyone have any > > references to the actual usage of > > >shells besides pictures? > > > > Page 64 of "Painters" in the _Medieval Craftsmen_ > > series from the British > > Museum Press (Paul Binsky) has a photo of an oyster > > shell with > > traces of pigment (quite solid traces, too -- it's > > about 1/4 full) which > > is probably 14th C, found in Boyton Church, > > Wiltshire. > > > > These series of books are Wonderful. Get 'em if you > > can. Also cheap. > > > > --Yseult de Lacy I'm familiar with the Medieval Craftsmen series from the University of Toronto Press. There is a lovely edition called 'Scribes and Illuminators' by Christopher deHamel, ISBN: 0802077072, the price listed at $21.95 and the book can be found at UofT at: http://www.utppublishing.com/ I'm not familiar with 'Painter's' book, but found it on the site, 'Painters' by Paul Binski, ISBN #0802069185, also $21.95. I was able to also find it listed on Amazon.com. I have a few others in the series and they pack a lot of info in a small space. Well worth it. Cheers, Hillary __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:15:52 EST From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: update on stretching parchment - --part1_63.14dd3378.2b019428_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello folks, Just wanted to let you know how the experiement was going. I have had the piece of parchment stapled to my watercolor board for about a month now and am still working on the piece. It was doing great as far as not buckling or pulling the staples out until last Saturday. I took it to a demo and the temperature change and humidity change seems to have shrunk the parchment a bit and some of the staples are coming out of the board now. But it is still tight enough to work. I have one buckle in the top corner that will probably come out when I take the parchement off the board when I am done. I am not using washes on it, but rather a thick layer of guache. So I probably did not need to wet it and stretch it anyway. Next time I will probably not wet the parchment, but just staple it to the board as it is. The one thing I did like about the wetting process is that it got rid of all the clear patches and the whole piece is one uniform color now. I also managed to get a batch of gesso made at the demo that actually worked! Guess the humidity and temperature were just right out there in Manteo on Saturday for gilding. The same batch seems to not be sticking quite so well now that I am back home, inside the climate controlled house. Even though we have extreme humidity levels outside right now and it feels humid in here too. Maybe I just need to work outside and forget about doing gold leaf inside! When I finally finish it, I will put it up for people to see. Brandy - --part1_63.14dd3378.2b019428_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello folks,
Just wanted to let you know how the experiement was going.

I have had the piece of parchment stapled to my watercolor board for about a month now and am still working on the piece. It was doing great as far as not buckling or pulling the staples out until last Saturday. I took it to a demo and the temperature change and humidity change seems to have shrunk the parchment a bit and some of the staples are coming out of the board now. But it is still tight enough to work. I have one buckle in the top corner that will probably come out when I take the parchement off the board when I am done.

I am not using washes on it, but rather a thick layer of guache. So I probably did not need to wet it and stretch it anyway. Next time I will probably not wet the parchment, but just staple it to the board as it is. The one thing I did like about the wetting process is that it got rid of all the clear patches and the whole piece is one uniform color now.

I also managed to get a batch of gesso made at the demo that actually worked! Guess the humidity and temperature were just right out there in Manteo on Saturday for gilding. The same batch seems to not be sticking quite so well now that I am back home, inside the climate controlled house. Even though we have extreme humidity levels outside right now and it feels humid in here too. Maybe I just need to work outside and forget about doing gold leaf inside!

When I finally finish it, I will put it up for people to see.

Brandy - --part1_63.14dd3378.2b019428_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:38:26 -0500 From: Fionnseach du Lochielle Subject: [scribes]: Codices Illustres - redux Greetings all: Well, I now know why everyone was having such a reaction to the Codices Illustres.....I am the happy owner of my own copy...and it is absolutely wonderful! It's also a good read, to boot. I managed to find my copy at Borders (sorry, it was in Boston) and also noticed that the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston also carries it - for the same price, which was $59.99. Don't know if people are haveing any problems locating a copy or not, but thought I'd share my info. Dreaming calligraphic fantasies, Sister Fionnseach - -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- ~=Sister Fionnseach du Lochielle=~ Not to have, but to give; Chronicler/Web - Shire of Dernehealde Not to take, but to receive. Combat Scribe - Barony Middle Marches Pursuivant-at-Large - Middle Kingdom Protege of Master Brusten de Bearsul =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:48:16 -0800 (PST) From: Crystal Cartwright Subject: [scribes]: [Scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Hello, I have just joined this list; and the instructions said to write a letter of introduction to the group. I am not a member of the SCA (I have only just discovered it), but I have great interest in Calligraphy and Illumination. I live in Texas and know no one who practices the scribal arts, so I have been trying to teach myself. That, however presents many problems, so I have some questions. I would greatly appreciate your insight! 1. I am left handed and I have discovered that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to learn calligraphy from a book with right-handed instructions. I did not realize the difference when I bought the book; and while it does devote a page to explaining left-handedness, all the instructions for forming letters are from a right-handed angle. Anyway, what I would ask is this: First, is there anyone who lives in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of Texas who could teach/explain left-handed calligraphy? Second, can anyone recommend a book for left-handed people? 2. This concerns gilding: Every book explains gilding differently, and I am thoroughly confused. First, is there a difference between using Patent Gold Leaf and Loose Gold Leaf? If so, what? I assume that using gesso produces a raised image and using gold size produces a flat image; is that correct? Does patent gold only used with gold size and loose leaf only used with gesso, or visa versa, or are they interchangeable? Is there a difference in quality, etc...? Second, is there a difference in buying gesso and making your own? Is one better or worse? If one should buy it, what is a good brand? If one should make it, does it matter what recipe is used? If so, what recipe is best? 3. This concerns paper: I do not want to use real animal vellum due to its high cost, so I will be using paper for my projects. What kind(s) of paper is best for illumination? And from whom can they be bought? I know weight and texture are important, especially if the work is to be framed. I hope I have not loaded you with too many questions at once. I shall probably have more in the future :)Thank you for your time! Sincerely, Crystal Cartwright __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:00:13 -0800 (PST) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: Questions about calligraphy and illumination Welcome to the list, Crystal! I don't have any advice on left-handed calligraphy, but your other two questions come up on this list often enough that I feel I can offer a reasonably competent reply :) 2. The difference between patent leaf and loose leaf is that patent is attached to a backing paper. This makes it easier to handle, especially if you ever have to gild outdoors. Which type you use, and with which type of size/gesso, is entirely up to you. In fact, I have one book which recommends using both patent and loose leaf (IIRC, you do the patent first, then follow up with several layers of loose leaf). The main thing is to make sure you're getting real gold, not imitation. This is more because of handling qualities than anything else; brass isn't nearly as soft as gold, so it can't be burnished as well, and it doesn't stick to itself. Yes, gesso is raised and flat size is just that--flat. If you want to go for period materials, people here can give you recipes for traditional lead-based gesso sottile; and Gum Ammoniac flat size is quite easy to make, once you obtain the gum crystals. If you don't care about documentable materials, or you have small children and don't want lead-based gesso around, there are recipes for unleaded substitutes. For flat size, PVA size is widely available (unlike Gum Ammoniac). (There are actually quite a few other flat size types, including garlic juice and gilder's malt and other vile-sounding substances.) 3. For paper, you want to go for three characteristics: heavy weight, relatively smooth surface, and archival quality. Bristol board (both "vellum" and "smooth" finish) meets all three requirements, as does heavy weight *hot*-press watercolor paper. Cold-press watercolor paper is too pebbly for calligraphy, but can be ok for illumination. If you can get it, Pergamenata (a particular brand of cellulose 'paper') is very nice because it approximates the look of parchment. I'm not sure if it's archival, however. Another somewhat-cheaper alternative to parchment is so-called "spam vellum" (like the potted meat-like product, it's made from scraps of the real stuff, ground up and formed into sheets). I'm drawing a blank on the brand name, but in any case it's not exactly widely available. Hope that helps get you started, Márti Darach, Caid - --- Crystal Cartwright wrote: > Hello, I have just joined this list; and the > 1. I am left handed and I have discovered that it is > extremely difficult, if not impossible, to learn > calligraphy from a book with right-handed instructions > 2. This concerns gilding: Every book explains gilding > differently, and I am thoroughly confused. > First, is there a difference between using Patent Gold > Leaf and Loose Gold Leaf? If so, what? I assume that > using gesso produces a raised image and using gold > size produces a flat image; is that correct? Does > 3. This concerns paper: I do not want to use real > animal vellum due to its high cost, so I will be using > paper for my projects. What kind(s) of paper is best __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? 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