From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #74 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Sunday, October 20 2002 Volume 08 : Number 074 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Re:vellum making Fwd: [scribes]: making vellum Re: [scribes]: Re:vellum making Re: [scribes]: Re:vellum making [scribes]: Re:vellum making [scribes]: gold leaf sources [scribes]: another version of the Pater Noster Re: [scribes]: vellum making [scribes]: Gallery updated ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:34:23 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:vellum making - --part1_20.37b905.2ae0165f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/16/2002 11:03:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Annette.Wilson@ea.gov.au writes: > Greetings, > the recent discussion about making parchment and vellum leads me to ask > whether the semilunar knives sold for chopping herbs would be suitable > for the final scraping of the hide?? > Has anyone tried this?? > Yes, Aengus has one. It won't hold a sharp edge for more than a couple minutes since it's a stamped and not forged blade. It's great for getting the hair and fat off, but doesn't work well for the final scraping. The handle is a separate wooden piece and it's starting to get a bit wobbly. :-( Aengus has spoken with a local blacksmith about having a reproduction of a period knife made. It's going to be expensive and it will take a while to get. OTOH, I noticed the other day that Williams Sanoma has a rounded herb knife (mesaluna) for under $30 The grip on it looks like it might be a little hard on the hand for prolonged scraping, but from the description it sounds like a good blade, so I'm going to order one and give it a try. Yvianne - --part1_20.37b905.2ae0165f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/16/2002 11:03:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Annette.Wilson@ea.gov.au writes:


Greetings,
the recent discussion about making parchment and vellum leads me to ask
whether the semilunar knives sold for chopping herbs would be suitable
for the final scraping of the hide??
Has anyone tried this??


Yes, Aengus has one. It won't hold a sharp edge for more than a couple minutes since it's a stamped and not forged blade. It's great for getting the hair and fat off, but doesn't work well for the final scraping. The handle is a separate wooden piece and it's starting to get a bit wobbly. :-( 

Aengus has spoken with a local blacksmith about having a reproduction of a period knife made. It's going to be expensive and it will take a while to get. OTOH, I noticed the other day that Williams Sanoma has a rounded herb knife (mesaluna) for under $30 The grip on it looks like it might be a little hard on the hand for prolonged scraping, but from the description it sounds like a good blade, so I'm going to order one and give it a try.

Yvianne - --part1_20.37b905.2ae0165f_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:19:26 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: Fwd: [scribes]: making vellum - --part1_38.2fda0fcd.2ae020ee_boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_38.2fda0fcd.2ae020ee_alt_boundary" - --part1_38.2fda0fcd.2ae020ee_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was accidentally sent only to me. I am forwarding to the list at the request of Michel. - --part1_38.2fda0fcd.2ae020ee_alt_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was accidentally sent only to me.
I am forwarding to the list at the request of Michel.


 - --part1_38.2fda0fcd.2ae020ee_alt_boundary-- - --part1_38.2fda0fcd.2ae020ee_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xj04.mx.aol.com (rly-xj04.mail.aol.com [172.20.116.41]) by air-xj03.mail.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILINXJ31-1016155755; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:57:55 -0400 Received: from ntmail.thielsch (p163.mpka.com [207.31.240.162]) by rly-xj04.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXJ410-1016155658; Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:56:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [scribes]: making vellum To: RenScribe@aol.com X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: LMacdonald@thielsch.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:54:54 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on ntmail/Thielsch(Release 5.0.10 |March 22, 2002) at 10/16/2002 03:55:01 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Public Service Announcement I took a class at Pennsic from Aengus on how to make vellum and was very impressed. Would I take the class again - heck yah. Will I make my own vellum at home - heck no (I was completely skeeeved by the process). His lovely lady gave me a sample of some of the vellum which I have been using as class samples. I believe this man really knows his stuff. If you are in his area or see the class being offered at Pennsic, please take it - well worth it. Michel =20= =20 RenScribe@aol.com =20= =20 Sent by: To: scribes@castle.org=20= =20 owner-scribes@cas cc: =20= =20 tle.org Subject: [scribes]: making v= ellum =20 =20= =20 =20= =20 10/16/2002 02:00 =20= =20 PM =20= =20 =20= =20 =20= =20 I am forwarding this missive to the list for Aengus. Please send any responses to him at Aengus1@aol.com ******************************************************* >speaking of parchments, has anyone had any experience *making* parchment? >any pointers to resources etc? >Just something I would like to have a go at sometime in the future. I have been making vellum for a little while now. I am including in this email an overview of the process I use to make vellum. I also teach the process hands-on. I recommend the hands-on approach highly if you have an interest and are in my area. If you have any questions, contact me privately as I am not subscribed to this list. Regards, Aengus MacBain Vellum Making 101 An overview Remember that you are dealing with a product that was an animal's organ. Since each animal is unique, so is its skin. No two hides will be exactly alike. This may change the way we perform the process. Be adaptable and open to change and experimentation. Lastly, have fun!! If you are not having fun doing it, why are you doing it in the first place? Below are the standard steps required to make vellum; 1-Soaking 2-Fleshing 3-Lime bath 4-Rinse 5-Dehair 6-2nd Lime bath 7-2nd Rinse 8-Streching 9-Scraping 10-Drying 11-Finishing The steps will vary somewhat from recipe to recipe, but I have found this to works well for me! Okay, I am going to assume you are starting with a freshly flayed skin. Place the hide in a container of water overnight to soak. The next day remove it form the container and place it under running water till the water runs clean. Now move on to step two. Fleshing the skin is a step that I consider to be vital. Fleshing is the process whereby all the extra fat and muscle tissue on the flesh side of the hide is removed by means of a fleshing knife and beam. The hide is placed over the beam hair side down. The fleshing knife (which resembles a drawknife) is worked down the flesh side slowly removing the fat and other matter from the dermis of the hide. This step serves two purposes, to reduce the amount of foreign matter on the hide that can lead to contamination and it increases the surface area of the skin that the lime has direct exposure exposed to. An added benefit is that this scraping also reduces the grease content of the hide. Prepare your lime bath by adding 4 cups of Hydrated Lime to 5 gallons of water. Fold your hide flesh sides together and place it in the liquid. Stir this with a rod 3 times daily for 8 days in the summer up to 16 days in the winter. When you notice the hairs starting to come off as you stir, remove the hide from the bath and proceed to step 3. Rinse your hide under running water till all traces of the lime are gone from the hair side of the hide. When you are satisfied the lime has been rinsed away, dehair the hide. If you have a fleshing tool, use the backside (the dull side) of the blade to dehair the hide. If you don't have a fleshing knife, any dull blade will work. If you don't have any dull knives sitting around, just use your hands! Work by sliding against the grain of the hair. Go slowly and make sure to remove all the hairs, even the teeny weenie little ones! When you have removed all the hair, make up another lime bath identical to the one you made earlier and place the hide in it. Stir this twice a day for 8 days. After the 8th day, take the hide out and rinse it again until the water runs very clear. Now the hide is ready for stretching. To stretch the hide, you need a frame. The frame I use is 4' X 5' and made out of 2" X 4" lumber. I use a mortise and tennon joint to join the pieces together with the tennons being on the short pieces and the mortises the longer ones. I drilled =BD" holes through the frame at roughly 6" intervals for my tensioning pegs. If you don't have tensioning pegs (like me till recently ;-) you can just thread your ropes through the holes and tie them off by hand. Granted, this is harder and will cause blisters, but it is better than nothing! Now you must attach the hide to the frame. There are two methods for doing this. One involves piercing the hide with short stout sticks and tying the rope around the stick to the frame. The other involves the use of river rocks about the size of your pinky nail. The rocks are pressed into the hide about 1-2 inches from the edge of the flesh side till they are fully enveloped by hide and sticking out from the grain side. Take a length of rope in you hand and double it. Hold the loop at the end and fold it back. Pull the two ends of the rope through the loop. This will form a slipknot. Place the slipknot around both the hide and the rock from the grain side. Sometime this is a lot more difficult than it seems. Keep trying, eventually it will come. Once you have attached all your ropes to the rocks and cinched them down so the slipknots are firmly gripping both the hide and the rocks, you can tie them to the pegs or the frame itself. I recommend you use sisal or jute twine for tying you hide. I use what is labeled 'Heavy Sisal'. You want to avoid nylon ropes as they tend to stretch and mess with you tension. If tying them by hand, tie them as tightly as you possibly can! Drying under tension is what separates vellum from leather. Without proper tension, you will have limited success making vellum. Once tied, to add a bit more tension put small pieces of wire (I used cheap tent pegs - Thanks Dear!)between the pieces of rope and twist them slowly. This will tighten your strings but also cause them to be under more stress and they may break more easily. If you form the wire into an 'L' shape, you can hook them around adjacent strings and secure them from unwinding (once again - Thanks Dear!). I should mention at this point that the hide should be kept wet for the remainder of the processing. It will be worked dry at a later stage, but for scraping you want it to stay reasonably wet. Now it is time to scrape. If you happen to have a semi lunar knife sitting around, send it to me and use an old butcher knife like I currently am ;-). Begin scraping on the flesh side of the hide. If you fleshed the hide either before processing or after dehairing, this will be much easier. If not, it's okay; this step will just take much longer. Using a very sharp rounded blade is best. Work in one direction as much as possible, I work from head to tail. I may work small areas in another direction to remove stubborn fat or tissue, but I always revert to the up and down scraping. Don't be afraid to put some elbow grease into it. This is not easy work and you have to really get in there and press to get this material to come off the dermis. Be careful not to go too hard too fast though or you could go through the skin. You will learn as you work the hide the proper force to use. Once you have removed all the extraneous fat and muscle from the flesh side of the hide, flip it around and scrape the grain side. This side is much easier to scrape as it does not have all the extra material that the flesh side did. Use a sharp knife and scrape until you are satisfied with the grain surface. When you are done scraping set the frame aside, out of the sun for one day to dry. At the end of the day, check your hide. If you feel it needs it, sprinkle the hide with water and remove all the damp flesh with pumice. This will level the surface of the hide and raise a nap on the surface of the hide that some people find desirable (I'm not one of those people). This can also be done while the hide is dry by rubbing the surface of the hide with sandpaper (a modern equivalent to glass paper). Now is also the time to put any whiteners onto the surface of the hide. I have had good luck with slaked plaster myself. There are references to lime powder being used, but in my experience it tends to cause streaks on the surface of the hide. Once you have finished with the surface preparation, set the hide aside overnight to ensure it has dried completely. Once you are satisfied the hide is dry, cut it from the frame and enjoy the fruits of your handiwork. I must take a moment here to share a few words of advice. I researched this topic for a full year before I even thought about starting a hide. With all the books I had read, all the notes taken, everything coming together I had no real idea what I was doing when I started processing my first hide. No handout in the world can take the place of hands on experience! Hopefully, the information contained herein has piqued your interest in this process enough to start doing research on your own. There is information out there, but it can be hard to come by. Look for anything by the author Ronald Reed. His book entitled 'Ancient skins, Leathers and Parchments' is required reading as far as I'm concerned. Be well! THL Aengus MacBain AEthelmearc David Hassinger Butler PA - --part1_38.2fda0fcd.2ae020ee_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:32:31 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:vellum making At 09:34 AM 10/17/2002 -0400, RenScribe@aol.com wrote: >OTOH, I noticed the other day that Williams Sanoma has a rounded herb >knife (mesaluna) for under $30 The grip on it looks like it might be a >little hard on the hand for prolonged scraping, but from the description >it sounds like a good blade, so I'm going to order one and give it a try. the problem with this is going to be the edges. The edges on those herb cutting knives are sharp. You'll have to blunt them. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:04:06 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:vellum making I've used an Alaskan Ulu knife. It is too small, but it works one handed. The real lunalarum used at Crowley Parchmenters in England is about 12 or 14 inches tip to tip, and the handle is a broomstick diameter piece of wood that pierces the center of the top of the knife (center of the disk if it were a full disk) at 90 degrees. So it is a two handed knife, with each hand on either side of the blade. RanthulfR - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts: Original Art & Prints for sale! Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:43:33 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:vellum making - --part1_a4.2e0a5e6d.2ae08905_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/17/2002 10:33:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aheilvei@uiuc.edu writes: > the problem with this is going to be the edges. The edges on those herb > cutting knives are sharp. You'll have to blunt them. For the final scraping the blade needs to be sharp. If the blade on the knife I used got anywhere near dull, all it would do is raise the texture instead of remove it. It's hard to explain in writing - it really needs to be experienced to really understand what happens. The closest thing I can compare it to is trying to remove a price sticker from a piece of glass. You can rub at it with your fingers and make moving globs of goo, or just take a a razor blade to it and scrape it off. I experimented with a safety razor blade on the deer skin vellum. Because of the size of the blade, I couldn't do the whole skin, but the small area I did was comparable to opaline vellum in weight and texture. By far the nicest section of the parchment I made. I had to be careful of the square edges of the blade because they would dig in if I used too much pressure or the angle was wrong. I had been planning to try a rotary cutter blade on my next attempt ... until I saw the herb chopper in the WS catalog :-) Yvianne - --part1_a4.2e0a5e6d.2ae08905_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/17/2002 10:33:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aheilvei@uiuc.edu writes:


the problem with this is going to be the edges.  The edges on those herb
cutting knives are sharp.  You'll have to blunt them.


For the final scraping the blade needs to be sharp. If the blade on the knife I used got anywhere near dull, all it would do is raise the texture instead of remove it. It's hard to explain in writing - it really needs to be experienced to really understand what happens. The closest thing I can compare it to is trying to remove a price sticker from a piece of glass. You can rub at it with your fingers and make moving globs of goo, or just take a a razor blade to it and scrape it off. 

I experimented with a safety razor blade on the deer skin vellum. Because of the size of the blade, I couldn't do the whole skin, but the small area I did was comparable to opaline vellum in weight and texture. By far the nicest section of the parchment I made. I had to be careful of the square edges of the blade because they would dig in if I used too much pressure or the angle was wrong. I had been planning to try a rotary cutter blade on my next attempt ... until I saw the herb chopper in the WS catalog  :-)

Yvianne - --part1_a4.2e0a5e6d.2ae08905_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:05:31 +0200 From: merlyn@virulent.de Subject: [scribes]: gold leaf sources Good morning all ( it is morning here in Germany already ack!) I just got my Noris Blattgoldfabrik catalogue in the mail and all I can say is wow and cool, they have everything for the person who works with gold leaf. You can order their catalogue from their website www.noris-Blattgold.de http://www.noris-blattgold.de/English/homeE_fset.htm ( for the catalogue, english site) and the catalogue is in 3 languages, German, English and french. They have the largest selection of burnishers I have ever seen and you can buy Permacoll through them, as well as stuff like fish glue, rabbit glue, gum arabicum etc... They have a variety of clays / chalks from stone chalk, fine, champagne chalk, Bologna chalk and so on... Ox gall purified, a huge variety of gold leaf / silver leaf / imitation metal leaf, powder gold, shell gold and so on. Since this is all they do their prices ( in euro) seem from what I have seen in art shops other than Boesner which is a warehous outlet, pretty good. anyway... just to let you know of a cool source. Bridget...--- "Trust in God, but tie up your camel." --Indian proverb =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:06:19 +0000 From: "Costanca Daguiar" Subject: [scribes]: another version of the Pater Noster Just as a curiosity, here's what was labeled as the Pater Noster in "The Book of Hours of Emperor Maximilian I" And there's probably lots of spelling mistakes, because the gothic script isn't all that easy to read even when you know what you're reading. Pater Noster O Hiesu vera libertas an gelorum, mundi fabricator, ? omniubonmz auctor, via salutis eterne, verus often for. Memento comprehenstonis et temptationis tue, quan do iudei tanqualeones ferocissimi in templo te circumsteterunte, et lapidare voluerunt, et manus iniecerunt, qui tamen tu diuina potestate patris tui protectus exiuisti, put scriptum est Heius aute abscondit se et exiuit de templo. Ita depreconrtua immensam misericordiam, secundumple nitudinem diuinitat ? tue, me protegere digneris, vt nec dua bolus, vel vssus humanus ini micus, in aiar torpore me nocere valeat, prestante domino nostro hiesu christo, qui cupa tre et spiritusancto glorie viuit et regnat in secula seculorum. Amen Lord's Prayer. O Jesus, true deliverer of angels, maker of the world, and author of all that is good; way of eternal salvation, true guide; remember thy arrest and thy temptations, when the Jews, like most ferocious lions, surrounded thee in the temple, wished to stone thee, and laid their hands upon thee; who, in spite of them, departed, guarded by the divine power of the Father, as it was written: Jesus moreover hid himself and went out of the temple. Thus I beseech thine infinite mercy, according to the greatness of thy divinity, to make me worthy of thy protection, and let neither the Devil nor that human enemy harm me in body or in soul. With Jesus Christ our Lord standing before me, who with the Father and the Holy Ghost liveth and reigneth, world without end, Amen. ~ Costanca Black Diamond, Atlantia _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband.  Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:36:01 -0400 From: Elen Alswyth Subject: Re: [scribes]: vellum making The Inuit name for the semilunar knife is an "ulu", and there it is extensively used for preparing hides. A sharp one can be used for skiving, and one with a burr makes a great scraper. I should think it would be wonderful for making vellum, though I haven't gotten past the sheepskin stage myself. - -Elen Alswyth > - --- Annette Wilson wrote: >> Greetings, >> the recent discussion about making parchment and >> vellum leads me to ask >> whether the semilunar knives sold for chopping herbs >> would be suitable >> for the final scraping of the hide?? >> Has anyone tried this? =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:41:56 +1000 From: Steve Roylance Subject: [scribes]: Gallery updated hi I have updated my gallery of competition entries at http://www.corplink.com.au/~roylance/show.htm The competition this year was of a very high standard. as ever Thorfinn Stormhold, Lochac Melbourne, Australia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #74 ****************************