From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #67 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, October 8 2002 Volume 08 : Number 067 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. RE: [scribes]: Gall inks Re: [scribes]: Gall inks [scribes]: ink and surface material corrossion Re: [scribes]: Gall inks Re: [scribes]: oak galls Re: [scribes]: Gall inks Re: [scribes]: oak galls Re: [scribes]: Gall inks [scribes]: Gesso question Re: [scribes]: Gesso question [scribes]: Re: Gesso question Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question Re: [scribes]: Gall inks Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:41:31 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Gall inks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C26E20.6717B150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You=92ve raised a question many of us have asked at one time or another, Kathe. Since modern use of period techniques is not very old (in the Middle Kingdom, they didn=92t even use gold leaf on a regular basis = until some time in the 70=92s), there is no real way to do the =93test of = time=94 thing as in books of the Middle Ages. I know some people have done light fast testing and found many of these supplies to hold up fairly well. However, most of us don=92t often think of the very long term, = but only the closer future (say around 25 years). In this we highly recommend using acid-free papers, light-fast inks, and light-fast gouaches. I think that many of the Oak/Iron Gall inks and Walnut inks would fade in time, but I=92m just not sure how much time. I don=92t do = a lot of study of period techniques, so I can only express my somewhat limited opinion. =20 Also, I don=92t think anyone on this list would shoot you for posing = such an interesting question. We are rather open-minded on this list. So, feel free to ask any type of question. =20 Meisterin Katarina Helene von Sch=F6nborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com =20 {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} =20 - -----Original Message----- =20 Greetings all: =20 I have been lurking on the list for a while now and have a silly question or rather questions. I guess I should start with a brief introduction and hope I don't have to sign off and change my name in embarrassment for the issues I'm about to raise. =20 My name is Cat or Lady Kathe in the SCA. I am a professional free lance artist, and I am not new to this. I have worked in a variety of media on a variety of surfaces, in a variety of period contexts. (Now come the true confessions) I must admit to a preference for some modern materials especially in relation to archival quality as it relates to durability and preservation. =20 I further admit that study and use of period materials is in a beginning phase for me. The current discussion of gall inks, recipes, and effects on vellum has raised several questions in my mind. Perhaps I should take my questions to a book, but I thought I might just throw them out there for general consumption. =20 The question that arises foremost in my mind is; How do these inks stand up to the test of time? Being of an organic and acidic nature, and noting the reference to oxidation, are they not inherently unstable due to decay and chemical change? =20 In case some are knocking their arrows at the moment, let me say, I do understand about the preservative nature of the tannic acids in relation to the bogs and leather tanning. And I have heard the argument that some of the manuscripts studied are 1000 plus years old. Making short of all the issues concerned; The works we are creating today with these materials are subjected to completely different circumstances of exposure to heat and cold, oxygen (not to mention air quality) and light. What are the long term effects of modern conditions on these materials? =20 Ducking and diving for cover just in case, thank you for your input. Cat - ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C26E20.6717B150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You’ve raised a question many of us have asked at one = time or another, Kathe.=A0 Since modern = use of period techniques is not very old (in the Middle Kingdom, they = didn’t even use gold leaf on a regular basis until some time in the = 70’s), there is no real way to do the “test of time” thing as in books of = the Middle Ages.=A0 I know some = people have done light fast testing and found many of these supplies to hold up = fairly well.=A0 However, most of us = don’t often think of the very long term, but only the closer future (say = around 25 years).=A0 In this we highly = recommend using acid-free papers, light-fast inks, and light-fast gouaches.=A0 I think that many of the Oak/Iron = Gall inks and Walnut inks would fade in time, but I’m just not sure how much = time.=A0 I don’t do a lot of study of = period techniques, so I can only express my somewhat limited = opinion.

 

Also, I don’t think anyone on this list would shoot = you for posing such an interesting question. =A0We are rather open-minded on this list.=A0 = So, feel free to ask any type of question.

 

Meisterin = Katarina Helene von Sch=F6nborn, OL

Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana)

Middle Kingdom

http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com<= /font>

 

{Some mistakes are too much fun to make only = once.}

 

-----Original = Message-----
=A0

Greetings = all:

 

I have been lurking on the = list for a while now and have a silly question or rather questions. I guess I = should start with a brief introduction and hope I don't have to sign off and = change my name in embarrassment for the issues I'm about to = raise.

 

My name is Cat or Lady = Kathe in the SCA. I am a professional free lance artist, and I am not new to this. I = have worked in a variety of media on a variety of surfaces, in a variety of = period contexts. (Now come the true confessions) I must admit to a preference = for some modern materials especially in relation to archival quality as it = relates to durability and preservation.

 

I further admit that study and use of period materials is in a beginning phase for = me. The current discussion of gall inks, recipes, and effects on vellum has = raised several questions in my mind. Perhaps I should take my questions to a = book, but I thought I might just throw them out there for general = consumption.

 

The question that arises = foremost in my mind is; How do these inks stand up to the test of time? Being of an = organic and acidic nature, and noting the reference to oxidation, are they not inherently unstable due to decay and chemical = change?

 

In case some are knocking = their arrows at the moment, let me say, I do understand about the preservative = nature of the tannic acids in relation to the bogs and leather tanning. And I = have heard the argument that some of the manuscripts studied are 1000 plus = years old. Making short of all the issues concerned; The works we are creating = today with these materials are subjected to completely different circumstances = of exposure to heat and cold, oxygen (not to mention air quality) and = light. What are the long term effects of modern conditions on these = materials?

 

Ducking and diving for = cover just in case, thank you for your input.

Cat=

- ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C26E20.6717B150-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:49:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gall inks The impression I've gotten (which may be quite mistaken) is that the various gall inks don't fade, but they can corrode the medium they are used on. This can result in what looks like fading and/or flaking, but is actually the parchment flaking off. Or something like that. Anybody with more concrete information on this? Márti - --- "Cathleen J. Winesburg-Balogh" wrote: > The question that arises foremost in my mind is; How do these inks stand up > to the test of time? Being of an organic and acidic nature, and noting the > reference to oxidation, are they not inherently unstable due to decay and > chemical change? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:11:10 -0700 From: "Cathleen J. Winesburg-Balogh" Subject: [scribes]: ink and surface material corrossion This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C26E1C.265353D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you all, and especially Bess for providing that web address. I had = a good long read with that one. I can safely say that gall inks will go = into the interesting experiment/experience category for me. It has me = wondering about the chemical composition of some of my earlier works. As = a Diabetic I read labels all the time and have only started to double = check my artistic materials in that last handful of years. This just = reaffirms that it is a practice that transfers from one discipline to = another and well worth the time to check things out first. Once again, thank you Cat - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C26E1C.265353D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you all, and especially Bess for = providing=20 that web address. I had a good long read with that one. I can safely say = that=20 gall inks will go into the interesting experiment/experience category = for me. It=20 has me wondering about the chemical composition of some of my earlier = works. As=20 a Diabetic I read labels all the time and have only started to double = check my=20 artistic materials in that last handful of years. This just = reaffirms that=20 it is  a practice that transfers from one discipline to another and = well=20 worth the time to check things out first.
 
Once again, thank you
Cat
- ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C26E1C.265353D0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:25:17 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gall inks The website posted by Bess is the best website around for the effects of gall inks and their not so great long term effects on papers and parchments. I do have my doubts about whether or not some of the samples shown on the page don't have other factors working to their disfavor, though. Many of the pictures shown have the ink having eaten completely through the vellum, but I've seen tons of samples from similar periods made with gall inks that show no signs of corrosion at all. So the question becomes was the ink itself too "strong" for some reason? Too much iron, maybe? I know that iron is the reason so many vintage silk fabrics, particularly from the Victorian age, have shattered. The mordants were iron based (to give the fabric a heavier and more expensive feel) and those terribly small iron particles have cut the fibers. Or is there some other factor here? Exposure to light/heat/moisture that may have either accelerated the corrosive effects of the iron gall ink, or reacted with it in some manner to produce it's own bad effects??? This isn't really something they address on the website regarding ink corrosion, so I don't have the answers. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:52:33 -0700 From: "Mary Edenfield" Subject: Re: [scribes]: oak galls > Coppras can be used as a substitute for iron with any ink recipe, so far as > I know. "coppras' copperas, et. are old names for ferrous sulphate, which is rusty iron. also available from dye suppliers as it's used as the iron mordant for dyeing. mairi www.canyonkeep.com period pigments, dyes, books =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 19:39:02 -0400 From: ESTAVASH@cs.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gall inks Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com wrote: > >So the question becomes was the ink itself too "strong" for some reason?  Too >much iron, maybe? Yes, I have a little book on iron/tannin inks that discusses this--I think it's by V.A. Thompson? (I can double-check if anyone's interested.) The author suggests that the weight of the copperas(iron)changes greatly according to how much water it has absorbed, and that makes it easy to accidentally use too much. The iron does seem to be what makes it so corrosive. Many manuscripts are still in good condition after many centuries, though, so it does seem to be the proportion that makes the difference. Ellen =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:08:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lyle H. Gray" Subject: Re: [scribes]: oak galls > > Coppras can be used as a substitute for iron with any ink recipe, so far > as > > I know. > > "coppras' copperas, et. are old names for ferrous sulphate, which is rusty > iron. also available from dye suppliers as it's used as the iron mordant for > dyeing. Pennsic water! ;-) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:02:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Anna Troy Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gall inks If you want something less destructive you can mix lamp black (hold a plate over a candle let it get sooty and scrape óf the residue. Or just buy the stuff) and mix it with gum arabic. Anna de Byxe ===== "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED to: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/crafts __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:48:49 +0200 From: merlyn@virulent.de Subject: [scribes]: Gesso question Greetings all.... the continuing story of me against gold leaf has reached silly proportions and having tried just about ever commercial gesso stuff out there, it's now time to make my own. I have been reading Kathleen P. Whitley's "the Gilded Page" and just about dropped when I read how one made slaked plaster.... there has to be something a little easier than that. - 5 weeks making plaster is not something I want to do. so do you have any good gesso recipes out there that don't take 5 or so weeks to prepare? and have ingredients you can actually find here in Germany. At the art supply shop here they suggested I try this grundierung stuiff, with a liquid stuff that will adhere the gold but it didn't work and I am annoyed with that. time to make my own and be done with it. Bridget - --- Bridget Greywolf, AoA2, OT Ar n-Eilean-ne expatriate now residing in Drachenwald House Blackwood, daughter to Lord Cealian Of Moray MKA: Fiona Messer, Germany =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 17:58:30 +0800 From: Jean-Paul Blaquiere Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gesso question > On Oct 08, merlyn@virulent.de illuminated : > I have been reading Kathleen P. Whitley's "the Gilded Page" and > just about dropped when I read how one made slaked plaster.... > there has to be something a little easier than that. - 5 weeks > making plaster is not something I want to do. > I wouldn't have thought it would take that long but ..... An alternative posted to me ea rlier in the month by Yseult de Lacy is to use chalk instead of plaster. I did a fairly un-thorough search after the discussions a couple of weeks ago and found several recipes for gesso. google, friend. ./jp - -- Jean-Paul Blaquiere || Avatar of Computational japester@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au || Thaumaturgy http://japester.ucc.asn.au || verum ipsum factum Questions are dangerous, for they have answers =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:19:21 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question - --part1_15e.1544a09b.2ad44369_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My first batch of slaked plaster was made according to the period recipe. When I was done, I was glad that I had slaked a whole 10 pound bag of plaster of paris. I never wanted to have to make more. ;-) Well... for most folks 10 pounds of slaked plaster would be a lifetime supply. I used it up in about 3 years. Not wanting to repeat the period (long) process ... I found a modern recipe for slaking plaster written by an author who retranslated Cennini's recipe instead of relying on the translations of others. Through his new perspective and with a bit of modern chemical knowledge he developed new recipes for slaked plaster and gesso. Here is a page that describes how I slake plaster in under an hour using Tresser's recipe http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2963/plaster.html There is no one "right way" to make gesso. If you can't find an ingredient, there is usually a substitution you can make. The amounts of ingredients you need to make the gesso work perfectly will vary slightly depending on weather conditions. I usually use a recipe that has been handed down through several generations of SCA scribes. It is based on a period recipe, but contains no lead and is non-toxic. My gilding handout (including gesso recipe) is online at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2963/gilding.html If anyone doesn't have full web access and wants me to send the instructions via e-mail... just drop me a note. Enjoy Yvianne - --part1_15e.1544a09b.2ad44369_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My first batch of slaked plaster was made according to the period recipe. When I was done, I was glad that I had slaked a whole 10 pound bag of plaster of paris. I never wanted to have to make more. ;-)   Well... for most folks 10 pounds of slaked plaster would be a lifetime supply. I used it up in about 3 years. Not wanting to repeat the period (long) process ... I found a modern recipe for slaking plaster written by an author who retranslated Cennini's recipe instead of relying on the translations of others. Through his new perspective and with a bit of modern chemical knowledge he developed new recipes for slaked plaster and gesso.

Here is a page that describes how I slake plaster in under an hour using Tresser's recipe
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2963/plaster.html

There is no one "right way" to make gesso. If you can't find an ingredient, there is usually a substitution you can make. The amounts of ingredients you need to make the gesso work perfectly will vary slightly depending on weather conditions.

I usually use a recipe that has been handed down through several generations of SCA scribes. It is based on a period recipe, but contains no lead and is non-toxic. My gilding handout (including gesso recipe) is online at:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2963/gilding.html

If anyone doesn't have full web access and wants me to send the instructions via e-mail... just drop me a note.

Enjoy
Yvianne - --part1_15e.1544a09b.2ad44369_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:41:10 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question I seem to recall that when the list first started up, we discussed various options for making or buying plaster or substitutes that could be used in making gesso. First option, of course, was do that medieval method which takes a month. One of these days I'm going to try it just because. Then there was the "hour gesso" method using litmus strips, IIRC. Then you can always buy the plaster. Many of the frame suppliers sell plaster for making gesso (it's used heavily in gilded frames). I've used both slaked plaster and "french whiting" in gesso recipes, and don't find there's much difference in how they work. I seem to remember that someone also said that dental plaster could be used, as it is also a slaked plaster (if you're friendly with your dentist, you might ask if he'll give or sell you a couple of cups of it - that will last a while). You can also buy precipitated chalk from L. Corneillson and Son in London - I bought some from them in May. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:48:35 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question Yup, we've been through this all before, but more recent participants on the list don't know that. It strikes me that excerpts of this, and the thread about Iron Gall inks, and excerpts of some other threads that were similarly handy would be great candidates for being edited down and put onto an archive page. Hmmmmm, don't we have some such thing for this list that we are essentially not in the habit of using?... Anyway, about gesso. Forget what Cennini talks about with all that gesso sotile and gesso grosso garbage. It isn't the same thing and it is for different purpose. Gilding gesso in books does however need a "bulk former" to raise it off the surface texture of the page. That's where either slaked plaster, calcium carbonate powder (CaSO4), powdered chalk or whiting come in. Any of these will do just fine. As long as it is *FINE* ground and inert. So don't use regular plaster of paris or it will bind up when you mix it. Slaking plaster doesn't take all those weeks. That is just freakin' anal. All you need to do is get the molecules to stop trying to grab water molecules at a high rate and causing bonds of structure. You can get most of the way there in a few hours, and with occasional stirring over the next day or so it is going to be "good enough." Just keep it pretty agitated in the beginning while it is trying hard to set. It slows down after a while. Of course you can just go buy some fine gypsum or marble dust and not have to deal with it at all. RanthulfR Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com wrote: > > I seem to recall that when the list first started up, we discussed various > options for making or buying plaster or substitutes that could be used in making > gesso. > > First option, of course, was do that medieval method which takes a month. One > of these days I'm going to try it just because. Then there was the "hour gesso" > method using litmus strips, IIRC. > > Then you can always buy the plaster. Many of the frame suppliers sell plaster > for making gesso (it's used heavily in gilded frames). I've used both slaked > plaster and "french whiting" in gesso recipes, and don't find there's much > difference in how they work. I seem to remember that someone also said that > dental plaster could be used, as it is also a slaked plaster (if you're friendly > with your dentist, you might ask if he'll give or sell you a couple of cups of > it - that will last a while). You can also buy precipitated chalk from L. > Corneillson and Son in London - I bought some from them in May. > > Tetchubah > > Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts: Original Art & Prints for sale! Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 13:28:19 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gall inks > > >So the question becomes was the ink itself too "strong" for some > reason? Too much iron, maybe? > >Yes, I have a little book on iron/tannin inks that discusses this--I think >it's by V.A. Thompson? (I can double-check if anyone's interested.) Jack Thompson. The book is _Manuscript Inks_. The man knows his stuff. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:41:32 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question >>Of course you can just go buy some fine gypsum or marble dust and not have to deal with it at all.<< Hey Ranthulfr - do you think that marble dust they call "venetian plaster" would work in gesso? I've seen it used on walls before in high-end designer showcases and it can give a wonderfully smooth finish, so I'm wondering... Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:21:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Anna Troy Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Gesso question So is regular plaster fine enough? I haven't started experamenting with it yet but I was told that the regukar stuff has too rough a grain or something like that. Anna de Byxe - --- Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com wrote: > > > >>Of course you can just go buy some fine gypsum or > marble dust and not > have to deal with it at all.<< > > Hey Ranthulfr - do you think that marble dust they > call "venetian plaster" would > work in gesso? I've seen it used on walls before in > high-end designer showcases > and it can give a wonderfully smooth finish, so I'm > wondering... > > Tetchubah > > Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any > additional text in > the body. > ===== "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED to: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/crafts __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #67 ****************************