From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #64 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, October 3 2002 Volume 08 : Number 064 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts & stuff RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts & stuff [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels RE: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels [scribes]: temporarily off list [scribes]: Codices Illustres [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts Re: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts RE: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts Re: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels RE: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels Re: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels [scribes]: on pasting artwork onto a scroll... [scribes]: galls [scribes]: knightly virtues RE: [scribes]: knightly virtues ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:14:46 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts Personally, Margaret, I think you would find it quite difficult to match any paper to the pergamenta... not only are the textures not the same, but the colors, too. Now, I have told my Society Brother, Master Harold von Auerbach, that he could do this very thing with my Laurel scroll, as he wanted a much larger area for illumination than was left for him by my own Laurel (sorry, Robert, if you are lurking... he should have told you about his problems). I don't care if it is a period tactic or not, I just want my scroll with both of their work on it!! If you are careful with pergamenta, you can paint a really nice miniature on it. What I would suggest (and this is a period method) is to paint the entire background of the miniature in a neutral color (I've seen it in white in manuscripts I've had the pleasure to look at closely) and then paint the miniature over it. This would lessen the buckling aspects of the paper. Despina, I am so sorry to hear of your problems with oak gall ink... I found out last year that it doesn't like iron gall ink, either. It just never changes to black!! Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:40:59 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts >>Despina, I am so sorry to hear of your problems with oak gall ink... I found out last year that it doesn't like iron gall ink, either. It just never changes to black!! << That's interesting. Since iron gall ink changes from muddy brown to black as it oxidizes, I wonder why pergamenata would prevent this from happening? Seems to me it would still be exposed to oxygen. It seems to work fine on paper (and certainly does on vellum too). Regarding "not enough room for illumination" on a scroll, I solved that problem by doing one that was 2 sided like the leaf from a book of hours. It was a Laurel scroll on 8x10 vellum. The text was all on one side, and the illumination (with the opening greeting) on the other. Just some simple illumination with the text. My website provider crapped out without warning on me several weeks ago or I'd give you the site to view this - haven't had time to look into rebuilding elsewhere, but will have time shortly. Tetchubah (18 days and counting left as Society Exchequer - but who's counting ; - -)) Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:56:42 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts & stuff Greetings Tetchubah: I have never had problems with Iron Gall ink changing to black on paper, but it just sat there on the pergamenta... drove me nuts. I even tried going over it a second time, to no avail. Sorry to hear about your WSP... bummer. The problem with my Laurel scroll was that it was being worked on by two individuals who don't live all that close to each other. The one doing the calligraphy didn't leave the illuminator enough room on the paper to do the style of illumination he really wanted to do (so instead, I have been waiting for about 6 years now for it ). I'm not overly complaining, as I desperately want both of these people to have had a hand in my scroll. I don't think the two sided thing would work, but I can suggest it to Harold. It may also be that Robert wrote some notes on the back and that would prevent working on that side. Since I've not seen the piece, I can't comment further. I vaguely recall the calligraphy part, but that day is rather fuzzy in my memory except for all the things that went wrong Congratulations on getting out from under your helium arm. Take a breather for a little while, why don'tcha?? Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:53:46 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: RE: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts & stuff >>Congratulations on getting out from under your helium arm. Take a breather for a little while, why don'tcha??<< Too late - I agreed to take over the kingdom Scribe Armarius office at this coming 12th Night. You might say I'm a glutton for punishment, but out of all the offices I've held in the SCA, Scribe Armarius is the one I've actually *wanted*. But it seemed like every time in the last 15 years it's come free, I've been committed to something else too time consuming, or contra indicated to holding 2 offices at once. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:31:27 +1000 From: "Annette Wilson" Subject: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels Hi all, I was browsing and came across an interesting book in the Bodleian Library's online selection. It's a fifteenth century English commonplace book and it includes quite a few pages of cadels. Take a look at: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/lat/misc/c/066.htm Enjoy Annette Wilson (aka Leonie de Grey) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:47:24 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels Not to mention, there are also some great doodles and flourishes in the manuscript. What a wonder resource. I've visited the Bodleian pages many times, and must have missed that one. Thanks for the URL, Leonie. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} - -----Original Message----- Hi all, I was browsing and came across an interesting book in the Bodleian Library's online selection. It's a fifteenth century English commonplace book and it includes quite a few pages of cadels. Take a look at: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/lat/misc/c/066. htm Enjoy Annette Wilson (aka Leonie de Grey) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:22:25 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: [scribes]: temporarily off list Dear folks, I will be away from work until the end of November, at which point I will resubscribe. - -- Johannes v.n. "Those who don't read ... have no advantage over those who can't" -- Mark Twain =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:36:39 -0600 From: "Crystal Olsen" Subject: [scribes]: Codices Illustres Greetings to the list, I just got my copy of Codices Illustres in the mail (Bless my mom for the wonderful birthday gift!). We were able to find it on half.com, brand stinking new, still in the dust jacket and shrink wrapped for 40-something dollars. With shipping, it added to $50.56 or something like that. I was first struck by the sheer size of the book. I spent an hour just flipping through the pages, and I didn't even finish. I can't wait to delve deeper into the book! Any gentles in the area are more than welcome to peruse this beauty. Jaquelinne de Radonvilliers Shire of Gryphon's Lair, Artemisia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:22:38 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts At 06:14 PM 10/1/2002 -0500, Helen Schultz wrote: >Despina, I am so sorry to hear of your problems with oak gall ink... I >found out last year that it doesn't like iron gall ink, either. It just >never changes to black!! Iron gall and oak gall ink is the same thing. Without the iron in the ink, you don't get the same tones for oak gall ink and the ink won't darken to that fabulous shade of velvety black. All of the (iron) oak gall ink I make, I make with some addition of ferrus sulphate (iron). The reason it's called gall ink is because it's made from the galls found on trees. Most commonly in the US, we use oak galls because they work well. There are other types of galls that (reportedly) work better, but they are mostly found in Asia and Europe. I've not had access to those. I've never had a problem with my ink not darkening. Perhaps your ink has set in the sunlight? Sounds funny, but iron inks (gall inks, whatever you choose to call them) *can* fade in sunlight; therefore it follows that if your ink stays in the sunlight too long, perhaps it's lost some of its potency and will not darken as much as you would like it to. Of course, this theory is completely blown out of the water if it darkens up on Bristol or some other ragg or tree based surface. *grin* I'm probably going to wander the neighborhood this evening looking for more galls. *grin* I've got a class to teach in a month and I haven't nearly the gall(s) that I thought. *grin* Smiles, Despina de la going to make walnut ink in the class too - ---------- "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." - - Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:34:05 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" Subject: Re: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts Sent to me personally but probably should have gone to the list... IIRC, there is something about this practice in _Medieval Illuminators and their Methods of Work_. Margaret FitzWilliam On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, D Humberson wrote: > Could someone provde a starting point to document the practice of separatly > painting minatures and tipping them on book pages? > > Thanks in advance, > > Ragnar Ketilsson > > >From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" > >To: scribes@castle.org > >Subject: [scribes]: pergamenata thoughts > >Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:03:51 -0500 (CDT) > > > > > >So I was wondering what the prevailing opinion of the list would be of the > >practice of doing the artwork on pergamenata and the actual scroll on > >something like Arches hot press or Stonehenge or whatever, and pasting the > >miniature onto the scroll. Good thing, bad thing, people won't understand > >it even though it's a period practice? > > > >Margaret FitzWilliam =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:06:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Karen Kasper Subject: Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts - --0-784684461-1033589216=:21612 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Despina wrote: >I'm probably going to wander the neighborhood this evening looking for more galls. So where does one find galls? Years ago I took a class where Master Anton of Winteroak showed us oak galls and discussed how to make the ink, but I live in the city and the few oak trees I've got access to have never seemed to have galls visible anywhere. At age 44 with arthritis in my hips I'm not keen on reviving my childhood tree-climbing skills... :-) So do the galls tend to appear on particular kinds of oak trees, at particular times of year? Do they often fall off the trees? Or is it likely that Pittsburgh doesn't have the right kind of bugs or weather or whatever? Arianna Karen Kasper "Good teaching is one-fourth preparation and three-fourths theater." Gail Godwin "To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains." Mary Pettibone Poole, A Glass Eye at a Keyhole, 1938 - --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! - --0-784684461-1033589216=:21612 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Despina wrote:

>I'm probably going to wander the neighborhood this evening looking for more
galls.

So where does one find galls?  Years ago I took a class where Master Anton of Winteroak showed us oak galls and discussed how to make the ink, but I live in the city and the few oak trees I've got access to have never seemed to have galls visible anywhere.  At age 44 with arthritis in my hips I'm not keen on reviving my childhood tree-climbing skills... :-)

So do the galls tend to appear on particular kinds of oak trees, at particular times of year?  Do they often fall off the trees?  Or is it likely that Pittsburgh doesn't have the right kind of bugs or weather or whatever?

Arianna



Karen Kasper

"Good teaching is one-fourth preparation and three-fourths theater." Gail Godwin

"To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains."
Mary Pettibone Poole, A Glass Eye at a Keyhole, 1938


Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! - --0-784684461-1033589216=:21612-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:08:51 -0400 From: ESTAVASH@cs.com Subject: RE: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts I've also had trouble with oak/iron gall ink on pergamenata. I use the Blotts iron gall ink from John Neil books, and it works very well on every other paper I've tried. Some take longer to darken than others, but my samples on pergamenata haven't darkened in more than a month. As far as European galls go (such as Aleppo galls, etc.) I'm pretty sure that they're mostly from oak, just different species. There are other sources of tannins that work too, but the oak gall/iron combination seems to be the most popular. Ellen "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" wrote: >At 06:14 PM 10/1/2002 -0500, Helen Schultz wrote: >>Despina, I am so sorry to hear of your problems with oak gall ink... I >>found out last year that it doesn't like iron gall ink, either.  It just >>never changes to black!! > >Iron gall and oak gall ink is the same thing.  Without the iron in the ink, >you don't get the same tones for oak gall ink and the ink won't darken to >that fabulous shade of velvety black.  All of the (iron) oak gall ink I >make, I make with some addition of ferrus sulphate (iron). > >The reason it's called gall ink is because it's made from the galls found >on trees.  Most commonly in the US, we use oak galls because they work >well.  There are other types of galls that (reportedly) work better, but >they are mostly found in Asia and Europe.  I've not had access to those. > >I've never had a problem with my ink not darkening.  Perhaps your ink has >set in the sunlight? Sounds funny, but iron inks (gall inks, whatever you >choose to call them) *can* fade in sunlight; therefore it follows that if >your ink stays in the sunlight too long, perhaps it's lost some of its >potency and will not darken as much as you would like it to.  Of course, >this theory is completely blown out of the water if it darkens up on >Bristol or some other ragg or tree based surface.  *grin* > >I'm probably going to wander the neighborhood this evening looking for more >galls.  *grin*  I've got a class to teach in a month and I haven't nearly >the gall(s) that I thought.  *grin* > >Smiles, >Despina de la going to make walnut ink in the class too =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:24:40 -0500 From: gvantass@interaccess.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts For us, in the Western Chicago suburbs (aka "Wasteland" in my mind) I found that "Swamp White Oaks" were the most likley canditadates to have galls on them. These trees are not exactly what I would call "pretty" as opposed to the more noble-looking red oak, but rather more scragly and "scrubby" looking. As to what they look like, well, they look like bark-colored balls (usually smaller than the tip of one's thumb) along the branches of the tree. It's entirely possible to find galls without climbing trees, but you need to have a bunch more trees to search. ;) The best time to go looking is mid-Autumn, as they have had all summer to grow. No, they're not fruits of the tree, as is an acorn, but rather more like a protective cyst that forms around an insect larva that has been laid in the tree, similar to how oysters &c. cover foreign objects with mother-of-pearl. Pax, Br. Conchobar - ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Kasper Date: Wednesday, October 2, 2002 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts > > Despina wrote: > > >I'm probably going to wander the neighborhood this evening > looking for more > galls. > > So where does one find galls? Years ago I took a class where > Master Anton of Winteroak showed us oak galls and discussed how to > make the ink, but I live in the city and the few oak trees I've > got access to have never seemed to have galls visible anywhere. > At age 44 with arthritis in my hips I'm not keen on reviving my > childhood tree-climbing skills... :-) > > So do the galls tend to appear on particular kinds of oak trees, > at particular times of year? Do they often fall off the trees? > Or is it likely that Pittsburgh doesn't have the right kind of > bugs or weather or whatever? > > Arianna =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:23:06 EDT From: BessdeNevell@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts - --part1_15c.14a1db22.2accafaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/2/2002 3:07:56 PM Central Daylight Time, arianna_wyn@yahoo.com writes: > So do the galls tend to appear on particular kinds of oak trees, at > particular times of year? Do they often fall off the trees? I think that September and October are the best times for harvesting galls. This gives enough time for the bugs to move out. :-) I believe that it was the swamp white oaks on which was found the most galls, pin oaks following that. It also seems that trees which ring lakes and streams have a higher amount of galls then to ones away from the water. I'm not the tree climbing type either, and it seemed like the majority of galls that we found were higher than could be reached. However, when you have a large stand of tress you'll be able to collect enough on the bottom. Cheers! ~Bess - --part1_15c.14a1db22.2accafaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/2/2002 3:07:56 PM Central Daylight Time, arianna_wyn@yahoo.com writes:


So do the galls tend to appear on particular kinds of oak trees, at particular times of year?  Do they often fall off the trees? 


I think that September and October are the best times for harvesting galls.  This gives enough time for the bugs to move out. :-)  

I believe that it was the swamp white oaks on which was found the most galls, pin oaks following that.   It also seems that trees which ring lakes and streams have a higher amount of galls then to ones away from the water.

I'm not the tree climbing type either, and it seemed like the majority of galls that we found were higher than could be reached.  However, when you have a large stand of tress you'll be able to collect enough on the bottom.

Cheers!

~Bess
 - --part1_15c.14a1db22.2accafaa_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:06:12 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts Odd, my Oak Galls are all about the size of golf balls. They look like balls grown around thin little twigs hanging from under a tree branch. They are tan and fairly smooth. They sorta hang like an apple, but smaller. There will be a hole where the young wasp crawled out, and they are pretty empty inside. Don't look like oysters at all. Not even Rocky Mountain Oysters. RanthulfR gvantass@interaccess.com wrote: > > For us, in the Western Chicago suburbs (aka "Wasteland" in my mind) I > found that "Swamp White Oaks" were the most likley canditadates to have > galls on them. These trees are not exactly what I would call "pretty" > as opposed to the more noble-looking red oak, but rather more scragly > and "scrubby" looking. > > As to what they look like, well, they look like bark-colored balls > (usually smaller than the tip of one's thumb) along the branches of the > tree. It's entirely possible to find galls without climbing trees, but > you need to have a bunch more trees to search. ;) > > The best time to go looking is mid-Autumn, as they have had all summer > to grow. No, they're not fruits of the tree, as is an acorn, but rather > more like a protective cyst that forms around an insect larva that has > been laid in the tree, similar to how oysters &c. cover foreign objects > with mother-of-pearl. > > Pax, > Br. Conchobar > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Karen Kasper > Date: Wednesday, October 2, 2002 3:06 pm > Subject: Re: [scribes]: inks was: pergamenata thoughts > > > > > Despina wrote: > > > > >I'm probably going to wander the neighborhood this evening > > looking for more > > galls. > > > > So where does one find galls? Years ago I took a class where > > Master Anton of Winteroak showed us oak galls and discussed how to > > make the ink, but I live in the city and the few oak trees I've > > got access to have never seemed to have galls visible anywhere. > > At age 44 with arthritis in my hips I'm not keen on reviving my > > childhood tree-climbing skills... :-) > > > > So do the galls tend to appear on particular kinds of oak trees, > > at particular times of year? Do they often fall off the trees? > > Or is it likely that Pittsburgh doesn't have the right kind of > > bugs or weather or whatever? > > > > Arianna > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:38:31 -0700 From: Maria faul Subject: Re: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels Hello, Could you tell me what Cadels means?? Not in the english dictionary. Is it a foreign word and if so could you tell me what it means?? Thank you, Maria del Norte aka Maria Faul Love learning new things!! Annette Wilson wrote: > > Hi all, > I was browsing and came across an interesting book in the Bodleian > Library's online selection. > It's a fifteenth century English commonplace book and it includes quite > a few pages of cadels. > Take a look at: > http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/lat/misc/c/066.htm > > Enjoy > > Annette Wilson > (aka Leonie de Grey) > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:34:54 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels Maria: If you go back to that page and scroll down to fol. 112r and most of the pages following it, you will see Cadels. Usually, they were very fancily executed calligraphed versals (the main capital letter of a paragraph or phrase). This book mentioned is an excellent example of a "how to" book by the author. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} - -----Original Message----- Hello, Could you tell me what Cadels means?? Not in the english dictionary. Is it a foreign word and if so could you tell me what it means?? Thank you, Maria del Norte aka Maria Faul Love learning new things!! Annette Wilson wrote: > > Hi all, > I was browsing and came across an interesting book in the Bodleian > Library's online selection. > It's a fifteenth century English commonplace book and it includes quite > a few pages of cadels. > Take a look at: > http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/lat/misc/c/066. htm > > Enjoy > > Annette Wilson > (aka Leonie de Grey) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 16:00:59 -0700 From: Maria faul Subject: Re: [scribes]: An interesting set of Cadels Thank you!!! Learned something new today!!! Big grin!! Maria Helen Schultz wrote: > > Maria: > > If you go back to that page and scroll down to fol. 112r and most of the > pages following it, you will see Cadels. Usually, they were very > fancily executed calligraphed versals (the main capital letter of a > paragraph or phrase). This book mentioned is an excellent example of a > "how to" book by the author. > > Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn, OL > Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) > Middle Kingdom > http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com > > > {Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.} > > > -----Original Message----- > > Hello, > > Could you tell me what Cadels means?? Not in the english dictionary. > Is it a foreign word and if so could you tell me what it means?? > > Thank you, > Maria del Norte aka Maria Faul > > Love learning new things!! > > Annette Wilson wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I was browsing and came across an interesting book in the Bodleian > > Library's online selection. > > It's a fifteenth century English commonplace book and it includes > quite > > a few pages of cadels. > > Take a look at: > > > http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/lat/misc/c/066. > htm > > > > Enjoy > > > > Annette Wilson > > (aka Leonie de Grey) > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:11:34 EDT From: ArtsofPalm@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: on pasting artwork onto a scroll... What a great Question! I've been thinking about this for quite a while, but was too embarrassed to ask about it. I'd love to find out more about what surfaces they used and how they pasted it in... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 01:28:40 -0400 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: [scribes]: galls Baroness Megan usually has some really big galls at Pennsic. I'm not sure where she gets them, but they are huge--golf ball size and larger. Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, EK(NH) p.s. Hi Arianna! Glad you liked the scroll. Feel free to post a pic of it somewhere, if you can. My camera ate the film I used to take pictures of it :( =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:07:23 -0700 From: "Julie & Derek Craig" Subject: [scribes]: knightly virtues Greetings everyone, I hae been lurking on the list for a short while, and when some of you have discussed of shown projects (like Annettes!, beautiful work) I have enquired breifly, as my skills are at, I beleive a very beginners level; and have been helped off list with all my questions. thank you for your feedback and kind words. I'm hoping that I might impose some feedback on the list. I am wanting to do a scroll of the knightly virtues for the first knight of our small shire. He has pointed me in the direction of several knightly URL's.. Each of these sites have varying numbers of virtues. ie: http://www.notebene.net/tony/chivalry.html http://cannibal-inc.dingojunction.com/eclipse/codex/npokv.htm http://faculty.smu.edu/bwheeler/Ency/vertues.html My question is: Has anyone on the list done such a work, or investigated it? Am I able to copy these virtues without offence to anyones copyright? Is there a text that I do not know of which is prefferable, or more accurate? I have found a very good book by Henry Shaw on Alphabets and numbers of the middle ages. In this is a lovely style from the Schoiffoers Bible, 15th Century I beleive. Not too ornate, but very colourful and clever. So I will be attempting this. I look forward to your feedback Yours in Service Julie Craig =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:35:52 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: knightly virtues Julie, A couple of questions... Are you doing a "Knighting" scroll for someone in your shire who is being Knighted? Or are you doing a non-official type piece of art-work for a Knight in your shire that happens to be about the Knightly Virtues? If it is a "Knighting" scroll, you should check with your Kingdom Scribe to get the correct text for this. The book you are referring to was also my first book. I like it a lot but alas, it is a secondary source as all of the illustrations in it are reproductions by the author. All of this being said, this is one of the better Victorian Era books on this topic. The colorful initials that you mention are from Fust and Schoiffer's Bible. It turns out that Guttenburg (the Guttenberg Bible's) was sued by Fust and lost his printing presses. Fust then partnered up with Schoiffer to produce Bibles in order to try to recoup his losses. The point of all of this is that the examples that you like all come from a "Guttenberg"-Like Bible made at approximately the same time period and in the same city. (Mainz). The style of illumination is awesome and is actually my personal favorite to do. It is not very hard and when done well makes the artist look a lot better than they really are. :-) It is called the "Gottingen Model Book" style of illumination because it turns out that this particular style of illumination was described in a primer (called a model-book) which was found in the city of Gottingen, which is close to Mainz. The GMB is a fabulous source book because it is one of the only model books to include not only step-by-step instructions for it's illumination style, but also step-by-step illustrations! A facsimile edition of this book was made in 1973 at the University of Missouri by Dr. Lehman-Haupt. You can still find copies of this book at places like AbeBooks.com etc. but be prepared to pay $75-$150 for a copy in good shape. My copy is one of my most prized possessions. If you like this style of illumination then I strongly recommend that you buy your own copy. Another option is to order the "Digital Guttenberg" CD's (search the net for the Digital Guttenberg Project. The CD's contain digitized photographs of the model book. When trying to do the more complex letters that are shown in the book that you have, I recommend tracing the outlines of the letters at first. You can use a copier to make them bigger or smaller as you need. Then take a #2 pencil and shade-in the light's and darks. The spiraly-daggy-fany acanthus forms that are embedded in the letter-strokes can be tricky to get them to look just right, so a little bit of time spent practicing them will be very helpful later on. One point to mention here. When I first started doing this style of illumination I did not have access to the Gottingen Model Book. Looking at the examples in the "Medieval Alphabets" book it appeared to me that the shading in the letters was done in a gradient style. I.E. a smooth and continues transition from light to dark. After I got ahold of the GMB I discovered much to my surprise (and dismay) that this was not how the shading was done for this style at all, rather it was done using a 3-tone color approach with hatched highlighting. All of this being said, I think that the smoother look is nicer on the modern eye, so for many pieces (where I am not trying to be very authentic) I use this style anyways. I hope that you can show us your work when it is done! Cystennin - -----Original Message----- From: Julie & Derek Craig [mailto:hylander@ihug.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 8:07 PM To: scribes Subject: [scribes]: knightly virtues Greetings everyone, I hae been lurking on the list for a short while, and when some of you have discussed of shown projects (like Annettes!, beautiful work) I have enquired breifly, as my skills are at, I beleive a very beginners level; and have been helped off list with all my questions. thank you for your feedback and kind words. I'm hoping that I might impose some feedback on the list. I am wanting to do a scroll of the knightly virtues for the first knight of our small shire. He has pointed me in the direction of several knightly URL's.. Each of these sites have varying numbers of virtues. ie: http://www.notebene.net/tony/chivalry.html http://cannibal-inc.dingojunction.com/eclipse/codex/npokv.htm http://faculty.smu.edu/bwheeler/Ency/vertues.html My question is: Has anyone on the list done such a work, or investigated it? Am I able to copy these virtues without offence to anyones copyright? Is there a text that I do not know of which is prefferable, or more accurate? I have found a very good book by Henry Shaw on Alphabets and numbers of the middle ages. In this is a lovely style from the Schoiffoers Bible, 15th Century I beleive. Not too ornate, but very colourful and clever. So I will be attempting this. I look forward to your feedback Yours in Service Julie Craig =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #64 ****************************