From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #58 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Saturday, September 21 2002 Volume 08 : Number 058 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Slightly odd question Re: [scribes]: RE: speaking of earwax Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf Re: [scribes]: Slightly odd question [scribes]: excited and wondering [scribes]: Recent Scroll [scribes]: OT Oil of Cloves Trivia Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf [scribes]: questions about "my recent scroll" [scribes]: pergamenata Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf RE: [scribes]: pergamenata Re: [scribes]: pergamenata Re: [scribes]: pergamenata Re: [scribes]: pergamenata Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf [scribes]: FWD: bounced email to the scribes list - apprentice question RE: [scribes]: Apprentice question [scribes]: reminder about posting to scribes list [scribes]: I finally bought a dip pen RE: [scribes]: I finally bought a dip pen [scribes]: non-toxic gesso, clove oil, etc (Long & Nerdly) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:34:39 -0400 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Slightly odd question For ease of use, I'd recommend Pigma or Zig Millenium pens. (Waterproof, fadeproof and acid free) If you really want to use a fountain pen, there are several ink choices that claim to work without clogging. I got these from the Dick Blick catalog, but I'm sure other places have similar products. These specify for use in pens: Koh-i-noor Ultradraw waterproof ink Dr. Martin's Bombay India Inks There are some that say "non-clogging" but don't specify pen use outright.: Speedball Super Black waterproof india ink FW Acrylic water resistant artists ink These say they can be used in technical pens, dip pens, and airbrushes: Sanford Higgins waterproof Black Magic Sanford Higgins waterproof Black ALL of the above are fadeproof, the Black Magic and Ultradraw specifically say that they are acid free, the others may be as well, it just doesn't say so in my catalog. You should be able to search for these on www.dickblick.com Lots of other places will have them as well. Higgins and Koh-i-noor especially are pretty easy to find at most art stores. The Koh-i-noor might be located with the technical pens, the Higgins will be with calligraphy and drawing supplies. I suspect that leaving the ink in the pen for extended periods is what will cause clogging. Freshly filled, and cleaned out after use that day, it should work fine, as long as it isn't left uncapped. Good luck! Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, EK (NH) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:10:33 -0400 From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: RE: speaking of earwax In a message dated Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:35:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, hughesjp@fyi.net writes: > > > > > On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, Sunshine wrote: > > > > ...and alcohol and gesso don't mix. > > I dunno; my last gesso project certainly drove me to drink... > > Graidhne > As the saying goes... Don't scribe drunk. (Friends don't let friends scribe drunk). ;) - --Kayleigh =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:41:07 -0700 From: Maria faul Subject: Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf Hello, I don't know but you could do a test to find out. You could use a piece of scrap paper and paint a portion the size you think you might do on a scroll let it dry and then burnish it and see what results you get. If you do do the test, could you let me know what your results are so that if I ever have to fall back onto using liquid gold leaf than I will know what to expect?? Have a great day and good luck in your endeavours!!! : ) Maria del Norte Marina wrote: > > Now before you all go ick, eew, and the like, please know that I am new , > and have not as yet dared attempt real gold leaf. My question is, can you > burnish liquid gold leaf, and make it look decent? > > Marina of Starhaven > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:54:36 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Slightly odd question - --part1_8c.1e575c51.2aba17dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/18/2002 12:44:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kara_westfall@hotmail.com writes: > These say they can be used in technical pens, dip pens, and airbrushes: > > Sanford Higgins waterproof Black Magic > Sanford Higgins waterproof Black > > ALL of the above are fadeproof, the Black Magic and Ultradraw > specifically say that they are acid free, the others may be as well, > it just doesn't say so in my catalog. > > I wouldn't use the Black Magic ink in a fountain pen, unless you plan to rinse the nib out every 15 to 30 minutes. That ink has clogged up 5 of my Schaefer calligraphy pen nibs. I used it at events I went to and cleaned the pen nibs out after using them for a couple of hours. Eventually the laquer in the ink built up inside the nibs and now none of them work at all. Black Magic ink is great for dip pens and doing other artwork, but keep it away from fountain type pens. Brandy - --part1_8c.1e575c51.2aba17dc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/18/2002 12:44:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kara_westfall@hotmail.com writes:


These say they can be used in technical pens, dip pens, and airbrushes:

Sanford Higgins waterproof Black Magic
Sanford Higgins waterproof Black

ALL of the above are fadeproof, the Black Magic and Ultradraw
specifically say that they are acid free, the others may be as well,
it just doesn't say so in my catalog.


I wouldn't use the Black Magic ink in a fountain pen, unless you plan to rinse the nib out every 15 to 30 minutes. That ink has clogged up 5 of my Schaefer calligraphy pen nibs. I used it at events I went to and cleaned the pen nibs out after using them for a couple of hours. Eventually the laquer in the ink built up inside the nibs and now none of them work at all. Black Magic ink is great for dip pens and doing other artwork, but keep it away from fountain type pens.

Brandy
- --part1_8c.1e575c51.2aba17dc_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:19:27 +0200 From: merlyn@virulent.de Subject: [scribes]: excited and wondering Greeting all, I just got back from Boesner a HUGE art supply shop that sells at book price not retail and I saw Daler- Rowney egg tempura paints inc lead white. Has anyone used these yet? Are they as cool as they seem? Bridget - who didn't buy any but will . www.daler-rowney.com - --- Bridget Greywolf, AoA2, OT Ar n-Eilean-ne ex patriot now residing in Drachenwald House Blackwood, daughter to Lord Cealian Of Moray MKA: Fiona Messer, Germany =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:31:45 EDT From: Cpccohen@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Recent Scroll - --part1_43.11c3bc5e.2aba2091_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I'm commenting late. That scroll is gorgeous. Where do you get kangaroo-skin vellum? - --part1_43.11c3bc5e.2aba2091_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I'm commenting late. That scroll is gorgeous. Where do you get kangaroo-skin vellum? - --part1_43.11c3bc5e.2aba2091_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:24:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Mary Haselbauer Subject: [scribes]: OT Oil of Cloves Trivia For a number of years (all the way back to period) Oil of Cloves was used to relieve toothaches. Also called eugenol it apparently has some antibacterial properties. Curtis, E. In pursuit of palliation: oil of cloves in the art of dentistry.Bull Hist Dent. 1990 Oct;38(2):9-14. Okay, so, the day job is in a dental library where I couldn't help but look up everything I could about teeth in the Middle Ages. Slaine > Hmmm.... I'm not sure as my 'baby' is now almost 15, > but isn't it an > essential ingredient in Ambesol and other baby > teething rubs? > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:28:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Mary Haselbauer Subject: Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf No ick. That a very good question. The answer is It depends. It depends on what the binder is. I've been able to burning gold gouache with some success. (The binder is gum arabic.) It'll never look as smooth as real gold leaf but a little bit of burnishing will smooth out the particles somewhat. However, if the binder for the liquid gold leaf is acrylic it may be too flexible to burnish. My two cents. Slaine - --- Marina wrote: > Now before you all go ick, eew, and the like, please > know that I am new , > and have not as yet dared attempt real gold leaf. > My question is, can you > burnish liquid gold leaf, and make it look decent? > > Marina of Starhaven > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any > additional text in > the body. > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:49:45 +1000 From: "Annette Wilson" Subject: [scribes]: questions about "my recent scroll" Hi everyone, thankyou for your kin comments on my scroll, I'm glad you liked it. Two questions were raised... 1. Copyright. Yes, I do own the copyright, to both the whole artwork and the wording of the text, unless I choose to explicitly sign it over to someone else. It was a courtesy to the recipient, who has not yet seen the original, though he has a copy of the scan. I hereby give any and all of you permission to use this wording in a peerage scroll if you so desire :-) I am building a collection of transcriptions of period scroll wording, which will probably end up on the Lochac college of scribes web site, but if anyone desperately needs them now, I can email some to you. 2. Kangaroo vellum. Unfortunately, the source for this in Lochac is no longer available, this was a piece I have had for a few years. It was badly cockled when I got it, and in the end I had to restretch it (with much trepidation), but other than that, it was a delight to work with. If I had limitless resources I wouldn't use anything except vellum/parchment but... The next piece will be on goat, and the sheet is much thicker. It was prepared as a drumskin, but is a good colour and no translucent patches. At least in Australia you can buy small pieces of vellum from Wills Quills quite cheaply, and I recommend everyone should try writing and painting on a little piece just to feel what it is like to work with - the difference between it and high quality paper is often subtle, but nothing else looks or feels _quite_ the same Leonie de Grey =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:54:47 -0400 From: "Barbara Bishop" Subject: [scribes]: pergamenata Greetings, I somehow got bounced off the list - it was very weird. Anyway, I am hoping to find an on-line source for Pergamenata Paper as John Neal is discontinueing it. Ideas? Countess Brigit ART IS THE SUNSHINE IN YOUR HEART BEAMING OUT! http://scribe.atlantia.sca.org/gallery/Brigit/index.html "Honor servire est" I do not know what your destiny will be, but one thing I know: the only ones among you who will really be happy are those who have sought and found how to serve. Albert Schweitzer _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:04:28 -0400 From: Sally Burnell Subject: Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf At 06:37 PM 09/17/2002 -0400, Marina wrote: >Now before you all go ick, eew, and the like, please know that I am new , >and have not as yet dared attempt real gold leaf. My question is, can you >burnish liquid gold leaf, and make it look decent? Well, I've never personally used any "liquid gold leaf" (do tell me what that is, as I intrigued!). I use Windsor and Newton gold ink, which tends to be rather grainy in texture, unfortunately, but it's the "goldest" gold I can find that isn't gold leaf itself. All the other gold paints and inks tend to be kind of bronze-y in colour and I don't like that. Anyway, in answer to your question, I've burnished W&N gold ink. Here's what I do: I paint on about, oh, anywhere between 2 and 4 layers of gold ink, let it dry thoroughly each time (being careful so as not to cause the paper to buckle). Then after I do that, I take a piece of glassine paper and a burnishing stone and give it a good burnish. What this does is to reduce the graininess of the ink while giving it a smoother texture. Then I very, very lightly burnish the gold ink itself without the glassine paper on top. While it doesn't give you the shine that gold leaf would, still, I am most pleased with the effect. I've had great success with this method so far. Oh, and don't worry that you're new. I've been at this craft for about 24 years now and have only done gold leafing practise pieces. Never done a full-blown gold leafed scroll yet. Don't have the tools to do so anyway, and I'm not worried about it, since I get an average of only a few days lead time to get a Kingdom scroll done, leaving me virtually no time to do anything that elaborate anyway. Hope this helps! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:17:14 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: pergamenata Countess Brigit: I don't know if they have it on line, but in their paper catalog, Paper & Ink Arts has both weights of it. Page 44. 1-800-736-7772 Try calling them... They are located in Maryland, so you should get fairly fast response to an order. Meisterin Katarina Helene - -----Original Message----- Greetings, I somehow got bounced off the list - it was very weird. Anyway, I am hoping to find an on-line source for Pergamenata Paper as John Neal is discontinueing it. Ideas? Countess Brigit =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:44:37 -0500 From: Geordon VanTassle Subject: Re: [scribes]: pergamenata On Wednesday, September 18, 2002 at 22:17:14 GMT -0500 (which was 10:17 PM where I live), thus spake Helen Schultz on the subject of "[scribes]: pergamenata": Additionally, their phone-person (Kim, I think her name is) is a true delight. Such a pleasant thing to find REAL Customer Service these days. And, all of the orders that I have placed with them have been in my hands within three days, except the Blott's Iron Gall Ink, which was on backorder, from England. :) HS> Countess Brigit: HS> I don't know if they have it on line, but in their paper catalog, Paper HS> & Ink Arts has both weights of it. Page 44. 1-800-736-7772 Try HS> calling them... They are located in Maryland, so you should get fairly HS> fast response to an order. HS> Meisterin Katarina Helene HS> -----Original Message----- HS> Greetings, HS> I somehow got bounced off the list - it was very weird. Anyway, I am HS> hoping HS> to find an on-line source for Pergamenata Paper as John Neal is HS> discontinueing it. Ideas? - -- Best regards, Geordon mailto:gvantass@interaccess.com Your fortune: "Not everything that can be counted, counts. And not everything that counts can be counted." (Albert Einstein) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:37:55 -0400 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: Re: [scribes]: pergamenata The only two suppliers I know of are Paper and Ink Arts www.paperinkarts.com and New York Central Art Supply www.nycentralart.com I don't think either has their full catalog available online, you'd have to request a catalog. For NY Central, be sure to request their "fine papers" catalog. Their "fine art" catalog is really good too, BTW. (Use the "ordering" button to make a catalog request) You can also email either of them, or call to order. I've had good responses (one or two days) from both via email. NY Central has the best prices on pergamenata IF you're ordering a lot. Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, EK (NH) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:37:05 -0400 From: LMacdonald@thielsch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: pergamenata Try this. Pergamenata (parchment) paper 27" x 39", 160 gr white or natural P-PRC160 $2.95 at http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/papers/machinemade/textm.htm Michel Almond de Champagne (EK) "Kara Westfall" tmail.com> cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: [scribes]: pergamenata owner-scribes@cas tle.org 09/19/2002 01:37 AM The only two suppliers I know of are Paper and Ink Arts www.paperinkarts.com and New York Central Art Supply www.nycentralart.com I don't think either has their full catalog available online, you'd have to request a catalog. For NY Central, be sure to request their "fine papers" catalog. Their "fine art" catalog is really good too, BTW. (Use the "ordering" button to make a catalog request) You can also email either of them, or call to order. I've had good responses (one or two days) from both via email. NY Central has the best prices on pergamenata IF you're ordering a lot. Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, EK (NH) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:52:06 -0700 From: Maria faul Subject: Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf Hello, I don't know the answer to your question as I do not use Liquid gold leaf. I use either gold gouache or gold leaf. I am also making sure that this gets posted back to the list as someone there might be able to answer your question. Sorry I can't be of more help! Have a great day and have fun in your choice of calligraphy or illumination or both! : ) Maria del Norte Mists, West LMacdonald@thielsch.com wrote: > > I thought that Liquid gold leaf was oil base. Is this true? > > Michel > > > Maria faul > > net> cc: scribes@castle.org > Sent by: Subject: Re: [scribes]: Quick Question about liquid gold leaf > owner-scribes@cas > tle.org > > > 09/18/2002 11:41 > AM > > > > Hello, > > I don't know but you could do a test to find out. You could use a piece > of scrap paper and paint a portion the size you think you might do on a > scroll let it dry and then burnish it and see what results you get. If > you do do the test, could you let me know what your results are so that > if I ever have to fall back onto using liquid gold leaf than I will know > what to expect?? > > Have a great day and good luck in your endeavours!!! > : ) > Maria del Norte > > Marina wrote: > > > > Now before you all go ick, eew, and the like, please know that I am new , > > and have not as yet dared attempt real gold leaf. My question is, can > you > > burnish liquid gold leaf, and make it look decent? > > > > Marina of Starhaven > > > > =================================================================== > > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > > with a blank Subject: line and > > unsubscribe scribes > > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > > the body. > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:22:34 -0700 From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: FWD: bounced email to the scribes list - apprentice question Please reply directly to the sender, not to me. postmaster@castle.org - ------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:05:29 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash To: scribes@castle.org Subject: apprentice question Message-ID: Dear folks, Do those of you who are teaching apprentices or students, require your learners to s*bscribe to this list, or to be familiar with discussions on it? - - -- johannes v.n. "Those who don't read ... have no advantage over those who can't" -- Mark Twain - ------- End of Forwarded Message =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:28:37 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Apprentice question Johannes: I don't "require" my apprentices or students to be a part of this list, but I do recommend it... and I certainly don't require them to post to it. Sometimes just being a "lurker" can be as beneficial as asking questions. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, IN) Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.insightbb.com You asked: Dear folks, Do those of you who are teaching apprentices or students, require your learners to s*bscribe to this list, or to be familiar with discussions on it? - - -- johannes v.n. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:47:50 -0700 From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: reminder about posting to scribes list There has been a steady increase in the number of auto-rejected emails to the scribes list lately. Please remember that you can only post to the list with the address you initially used to s*bscribe. If you address is at all different, the email is rejected by the new, harsher spam filters. Also, please remember that if your mailbox overflows and you generate bounce messages to the scribes list for more than 24 hours, you will be uns*bscribed from the list without notice. If I'm not incredibly busy, I will change your s*bscription to the digest for a day or two before removing you, but if I'm snowed under (as is usually the case) then I will just quietly remove you from the list. So, if you use yahoo or hotmail or one of those "free but limited" email accounts please be sure to keep the box from overflowing. nomad ----------- - Lee "nomad" Damon - \ play: nomad@castle.org or castle!nomad \ work: nomad@ee.washington.edu \ /\ Seneschal, Castle PAUS. / \ "Celebrate Diversity" / \ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:50:43 -0400 From: Marina Subject: [scribes]: I finally bought a dip pen And India ink. Another few more quick questions. How do I best use these items? How do I best clean these items? The last time I used anything like this, I was a sophomore in High School drawing a fruit fly. Go figure! Any how, at that time I was told to use ammonia to clean the pen in question. Seems a little harsh for the metal nib. Any support would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Marina of Starhaven =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:16:33 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: RE: [scribes]: I finally bought a dip pen Congratulations, Marina... I don't think it makes much difference what type of pen you purchased as to how to clean it. Simply wash it in warm water immediately after use. It could help to have an old tooth brush (soft bristles, please) to help you get into some of the smaller parts of the nibs. Otherwise, water and a little soap is all that should be needed. You will probably want to do something to remove the shellac/varnish that is usually put on most nibs for shipping. With Mitchell nibs, it was recommended to me that the best way to remove this shipping varnish was to boil them for about 1 minute and then pass the nib through a candle flame immediately after drying (a pair of tweezers will work here to hold it when passing through the flame). Meisterin Katarina Helene (KHvS) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:05:39 -0600 From: Juanita Subject: [scribes]: non-toxic gesso, clove oil, etc (Long & Nerdly) I'm stuck home in bed with a bug, so am taking the opportunity to try and catch up with all my email (which I've been weeks behind on due to too much work and too many business trips). And will I will warn you now, this will be a bit of a nerd attack, since (I confess) and I am a bit of a nerd... And for the sake of not being too-long-winded, I've combined all my comments into one post. > > On Sep 11, Cindy Baker illuminated : > > Yes, you can simply substitute titanium white for the lead white. > > The two pigments are not exactly the same, but titanium will work fine in > > your gesso recipe. Exactly what she said... However, I have noticed there's an interesting difference between lead white (both varieties) and the two modern allochromatic whites, ZnO and TiO2 - they "clump" differently, for lack of a better word, compared to lead white. When you mix up the allochromtic whites, whether as a paint or in traditional gesso recipes, the paint or gesso mix "stands" higher initially on the paper or vellum, but absorps/sinks in deeper regardless of the amount of paper or vellum sizing, and dries slightly slower. None of this, however, seems to make a difference in the final product EXCEPT that you'll use less lead-based gesso than allochromatic-white-based gesso. Both types of gesso take gold leaf equally as well, and burnish equally as nicely. I played around with this interesting effect a few months ago, pricipally because my current stash of vellum is more absorptive than usual, and I was interested in finding ways to decrease the amount of absorption (other than lots and lots of sandarac or sealing with venice turp et al...). So, going back to chemical properties, there are three essential differences between the lead whites and the two common modern allochromatic whites, summarized as follows: lead whites: idiochromatic, high density, very high index of refraction Zn & Ti whites: allochromatic, moderate/low density, moderate index of refraction The chromatism and the refrative properties should have little effect on spreadability and absorption, which leaves specific gravity and chemical bonding porperties as the properties that might effect handling properties in a paint or gesso. And this actually makes some sense if you think on it for a moment. The big, heavy complicated lead white particles have a high affinity for water (which will lower the amount of water available for absorption) and they are probably more lethargic and better sinkers than ZnO or TiO2 (neither of which is highly hydrophilic) because of their greater density. So I asked myself: are there any other whites, regardless of chromatic properties, which have higher specific gravity and/or hydrophillic affinities compared to ZnO or TiO2? And the answer is: barite. Barite, aka barytes, aka barium sulfate, aka blanc fixe, is a white pigment which was widely mined and used for whitewash in the United Staes in the 19th and 20th centuries as soon as the barite deposits of the Ozarks were discovered. Despite being idiochromatic, it has a much lower refractive index than any other white pigment, which means its use is limited for our purposes in re-creating medieval painting - but used in tradition gesso used for gilding, the low opacity shouldn't be a handicap at all. When mixed in with the calcium sulfate dihydrate of the slaked plaster, the combination is white enough if you're not using bole, and it just doesn't matter if you are using bole... ;-) And as far as specific gravity is concerned, it's close to being as dense as lead white (one glance at the periodic table will convince you of this...barium and lead are on the same row, while titanium and zinc are two rows up!). The gesso I made up using barite (barite source: collected at the McLaughlin sulfide deposit in Napa, Co., California) stood higher on the vellum and Strathmore bristol board that I like to use than the lead white-based gesso (so it's less hydrophillic - no great surprise there) but it resisted absorption much better than the zinc or titanium white equivalents. It wasn't as good as the lead white gesso in the absorption department, but it was good enough for my purposes of dealing with my funky badly-behaved absorptive batch of vellum. Of course, increasing the proportions of bole and/or rabbit-skin glue will decrease absorption into paper or vellum, but I ran equal proportions across the board in this particular experiement so I could get valid comparisons of properties. I was really interested in learning how barite would behave, since you can find it all over the place to collect and grind yourself (there's a really good barite site just 50 miles south of St Louis, and it's everywhere out here in the western US deserts...you can even find it in Connecticut...it's as easy to find as gypsum, one of my favorite "starter" pigments for people wanting to make their own!) > after a discussion on the weekend about raised gilding and my desire to learn how > to at some stage in the not too distant future, I was browsing through the > archives for gesso recipes. ahhh useful archives. > Will gouache (titanium white/permanent white) work in place of the > lead/titanium white mentioned above? or should one find them as as powder? They must be used as a powdered pigment. Gouache has other stuff in it, like gum arabic or equivalent aqlutenant, sometimes barite or gypsum as an extender/opaquing-agent, and in some cheaper varieties, a dessicating agent to make up for shorting on the aglutenant. These additional ingredients would screw up your proportions and depending on the gesso recipe, they could screw up the chemistry of the gesso too. One last thought: when substituting other white pigments for lead white, remember to substitute on a volume, not weight, basis. quicky refs: Cennini _Craftsman's Manual_; Gettens and Stout _Painting Materials_; (National Gallery/Smithsonian) _Artists' Pigments_ vols 2 & 3; Hurlbut and Klein _Manual of Mineralogy_ 19th Ed.) Re: clove oil vs benzocaine... The active ingredient in clove oil is eugenol. The inactive ingredient (the oil) is yet still another vegetable oil. The good stuff is made from cloves (alcohol extraction). Cheap clove oil stuff is just eugenol or some combination of eugenol and some other topical analgesic in a vehicle of some generic cheap oil not made from cloves, regardless of whether the oil is vegetable or mineral...people can get away with making up eugenol plus generic oil and selling it as "clove oil" since "supplements" are not regulated by the FDA in the US (your milage will vary in other countries). You can tell the difference since the cheap stuff tends to list the eugenol as a separate ingredient. The oil in real alcohol-extracted clove oil is fairly thin, much less viscous than, say, corn oil. But the real difference between real clove oil and any other veggie oil is the presence of the eugenol. Though benzocaine and eugenol are both oral topical analgesics, it's likely the low-poise fats in clove oil that do the trick in gesso. But it crosses my mind that the eugenol itself could actually have an effect, since eugenol is a phenolic compound, similar to the liquid medium that Winsor-Newton uses in their liquid metallic "gouaches." The phenols have excellent penetrating qualities, and could serve to lower the surface tension of the liquids in a batch of wet gesso, thus reducing the occurance of bubbles. But I'm not really certain about this. Maybe it's time for the medieval material science geek to do another experiment... ;-) Benzocaine in an alcohol, glycerin/gel or a wax vehicle isn't anything like the phenolic eugenol in a low-poise vegetable oil. ttfn, Therasia, medieval material science geek (stuck home in bed with a bug :( and a bad case of cabin fever...in case you couldn't tell...:) BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED BORED - -------------- POST SCRIPTUM: > <> ...and alcohol and gesso don't mix. > > I dunno; my last gesso project certainly drove me to drink... > Graidhne SLAP!!! Bad peer, no biscuit!!! ttfn, your evil former-protege ;-) - ---------------------------- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. 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