From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #26 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, July 15 2002 Volume 08 : Number 026 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Black hours [scribes]: Humanist hand questions [scribes]: Scribal Beads [scribes]: Monks Re: [scribes]: Humanist hand questions Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads Re: [scribes]: Humanist hand questions Re: [scribes]: Humanist hand questions [scribes]: Re: [antir_scribes]: Scribal Beads Re: [scribes]: Re: [An Tir _scribes]: Scribal Beads Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads Re: [scribes]: Black hours [scribes]: Re: Black hours Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:02:19 -0400 From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black hours (snip) > Go Look At The Pictures NOW! They relate to an item which is up for > private sale; and as such they probably won't be online for more than > a few days. > > Peter Actually, Pete... those have been up there for at least a few months. I came across the same pages some time ago while hunting and pecking for a list of URLs to eventually stick in a "links" section of my own webpages. Still gorgeous stuff, as always. :) - --Kayleigh > > > > > Annette Wilson wrote: > > > > Greetings all > > A while ago someone was looking for a Black Hours - browsing the web I > > found this site, with practically a whole book scanned page by page. > > > > http://www.dndgalleries.com/bofh2.html > > > > Enjoy > > > > Leonie de Grey > > > > (Annette Wilson) > > > > =================================================================== > > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > > with a blank Subject: line and > > unsubscribe scribes > > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > > the body. > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional > text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:19:39 EDT From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Humanist hand questions - --part1_a8.e6145a2.2a619f0b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am working on a Maunche (East Kingdom A&S award) for someone whose persona is late period Italian. I decided to do a scroll based on that period. So I am working on learning the "Humanist" hand, but I have a few questions that I have not really clarified through my meager calligraphic library. Did they use: the long "s"? conjoined letters? the half "r" ligatures; if so which letter combinations were most common? Thanks for helping. Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_a8.e6145a2.2a619f0b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am working on a Maunche (East Kingdom A&S award) for someone whose persona is late period Italian.  I decided to do a scroll based on that period.  So I am working on learning the "Humanist" hand, but I have a few questions that I have not really clarified through my meager calligraphic library.  

Did they use:
the long "s"?
conjoined letters?
the half "r"         
ligatures; if so which letter combinations were most common?

Thanks for helping.

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_a8.e6145a2.2a619f0b_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:51:49 -0700 From: Subject: [scribes]: Scribal Beads This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C22A85.334A00A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung onto beaded = necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify scribal work, such = as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking through = different catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. I am = running out of time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next = weekend for An Tir's Coronation.=20 Does anyone know of anything that might work for this? I need to make 15 = necklaces, so I need at least one token per necklace. If anyone has any = ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT) quicktel.com Thank you, Baroness Katya in Raudhara An Tir - ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C22A85.334A00A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings,
 
I am desperately searching for scribal = tokens to be=20 strung onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads that would = signify=20 scribal work, such as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been = looking=20 through different catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. = I am=20 running out of time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next = weekend for An=20 Tir's Coronation.
 
Does anyone know of anything that might = work for=20 this? I need to make 15 necklaces, so I need at least one token per = necklace. If=20 anyone has any ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT)=20 quicktel.com
 
Thank you,
 
Baroness Katya in Raudhara
An Tir
- ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C22A85.334A00A0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 18:01:35 -0500 From: "D & L Potucek" Subject: [scribes]: Monks Hello all, I am learning why MONKS did all the writing. Currently I am trying to scribe a poem that I wrote as a little fun thing for the Royal's visit but it isn't going well. I have been halfway through only to have someone bump the table, bump my arm, talk to me. That was the funny one, I was writing day and instead wrote dad. My daughter was going "dad, dad, dad" to get my attention. She got it LOL. Maybe I should become a monk. Langry Bouclés d'Cheveux "Dying is easy, it's what you do while living that counts." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:03:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: Humanist hand questions - --- Floriligeum@aol.com wrote: > I am working on a Maunche (East Kingdom A&S award) for someone > whose persona is late period Italian. I decided to do a scroll > based on that period. So I am working on learning the "Humanist" > hand, but I have a few questions that I have not really clarified > through my meager calligraphic library. > > Did they use: > the long "s"? Yes. Randomly alternating with the short s, it seems. :) Here's an example from a 15th century Florentine edition of Livius Titus' "Historiarum decades", volume I (history of Rome from its founding to 293 A.D.). I've used 's' to denote the short s, '$' to denote the long one. FACTVRVS NESIM OPERE PRECIVM. Si á primordio urbis, res populi romani per$crip$erim nec $atis $cio nec $i $ciam dicê au$im: Quippe qui tum ueterê tum uulgatam, esse rem uideam, dum noui $emper $criptores, aut in rebus certius aliquid allaturos $e; aut $cribendi arte rudem uetu$ tatem $uperaturos credunt. > conjoined letters? Some of the more casual italics look almost like modern handwriting, so I'd have to say yes. However, as you move away from the secretary hands towards the more formal romans, the conjoining decreases. In the example quoted above, some of the serifs touch the next letter, but each letter is well-defined on its own. > the half "r" I can't seem to find any. > ligatures; if so which letter combinations were most common? Ampersands are used freely, and a close look will reveal some 'ae' ligatures. Latin texts will also use something that looks like a q with a small 3 tacked on its side, which I think stands for 'que'. They also use various abbreviations, which I'm not experienced enough to decode. (In the example quoted above, I've used ê to denote both the squiggle above the e in 'dice', and the dash above the last e in 'uetere'.) Modern printing was based on the late Humanist hands, so a nice serif font (Perpetua is one of my favorites) can give you a good idea of what letter shapes to use. Humanist calligraphy and illumination is my favorite. Good luck with your project! Márti Is it Pennsic yet? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:45:51 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads - --part1_e6.2ae7450f.2a6215af_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/13/02 6:53:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, raudhara@quicktel.com writes: > Greetings, > > I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung onto beaded > necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify scribal work, such as > scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking through different > catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. I am running out of > time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's > Coronation. > > Does anyone know of anything that might work for this? I need to make 15 > necklaces, so I need at least one token per necklace. If anyone has any > ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT) quicktel.com > > Thank you, > > Baroness Katya in Raudhara > An Tir > Try looking for charms or stampings. You can buy feather charm (southwest designs) for a quill. Sometimes you can find a scroll charm (mainly used for graduation). I've seen a paint palette. Michael's craft store sometimes has collections of charms for a certain themes. try: http://www.easternfindings.com/ http://www.fancifulsinc.com/ http://www.findings-net.com/index.htm http://www.archpro.com/stamping1.htm or you could makes some out of polymer clay. Tamara - --part1_e6.2ae7450f.2a6215af_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/13/02 6:53:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, raudhara@quicktel.com writes:


Greetings,

I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify scribal work, such as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking through different catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. I am running out of time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's Coronation.

Does anyone know of anything that might work for this? I need to make 15 necklaces, so I need at least one token per necklace. If anyone has any ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT) quicktel.com

Thank you,

Baroness Katya in Raudhara
An Tir



Try looking for charms or stampings.

You can buy feather charm (southwest designs) for a quill. Sometimes you can find a scroll charm (mainly used for graduation).  I've seen a paint palette. Michael's craft store sometimes has collections of charms for a certain themes.

try:
http://www.easternfindings.com/
http://www.fancifulsinc.com/
http://www.findings-net.com/index.htm
http://www.archpro.com/stamping1.htm

or you could makes some out of polymer clay.


Tamara

 - --part1_e6.2ae7450f.2a6215af_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:02:26 -0700 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: Humanist hand questions Martha Palotay wrote: > > > Did they use: > > the long "s"? > > Yes. Randomly alternating with the short s, it seems. :) A rough rule of thumb I've noticed is that the short s is used at the end of words, while the long s is used in the middle. This isn't hard and fast, but it happens more often than it doesn't. Branwen ferch Emrys The Mists, the West - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 20:33:16 -0400 From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Humanist hand questions Greetings-- > ligatures; if so which letter combinations were most common? Ampersands are used freely, and a close look will reveal some 'ae' ligatures. Latin texts will also use something that looks like a q with a small 3 tacked on its side, which I think stands for 'que'. That's correct. > They also use various abbreviations, which I'm not experienced enough to decode. (In the example quoted above, I've used ê to denote both the squiggle above the e in 'dice', and the dash above the last e in 'uetere'.) The squiggle (in this context) denotes a dropped re, making "dicere." The straight line is always a dropped n or m, usually the latter; in this case it's "ueterem". Nicolaa =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:56:08 -0700 From: Zodlee Subject: [scribes]: Re: [antir_scribes]: Scribal Beads - --------------3A42EFAB3016F9A4BF8D6023 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You could always use fimo or super sculpy, and make your own fairly easily. It can be found at any craft store or art store, its a bake-able clay that turns rock hard hope this helps Sergeant ~ Squire Lord Rembroes Scribe ~ Barony Terra Pomaria raudhara@quicktel.com wrote: > Greetings, I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung > onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify > scribal work, such as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have > been looking through different catalogs, both print and online, and > have had no luck. I am running out of time, as I need to have the > necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's Coronation. Does anyone > know of anything that might work for this? I need to make 15 > necklaces, so I need at least one token per necklace. If anyone has > any ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT) > quicktel.com Thank you, Baroness Katya in RaudharaAn Tir - --------------3A42EFAB3016F9A4BF8D6023 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You could always use fimo or super sculpy, and make your own fairly easily.  It can be found at any craft store or art store,  its a bake-able clay that turns rock hard
hope this helps
Sergeant ~ Squire
Lord Rembroes
Scribe ~ Barony Terra Pomaria
raudhara@quicktel.com wrote:
Greetings, I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify scribal work, such as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking through different catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. I am running out of time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's Coronation. Does anyone know of anything that might work for this? I need to make 15 necklaces, so I need at least one token per necklace. If anyone has any ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT) quicktel.com Thank you, Baroness Katya in RaudharaAn Tir
- --------------3A42EFAB3016F9A4BF8D6023-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 23:42:47 -0700 From: ren.touch@juno.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [An Tir _scribes]: Scribal Beads There was a good article in the TI not too long ago .( unless it Was an old one i was reading ) On making period appearing beads from fimo.. if you use it beware that it gasses off an that you want to use a cookie tin that you will not use for food again. I can try to relate the various techniques if needed .if interested ,contact me off list . service Johann F dabbler at large in Wyewood, An Tir On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:56:08 -0700 Zodlee writes: > You could always use fimo or super sculpy, and make your own fairly> easily. It can be found at any craft store or art store, its a> bake-able clay that turns rock hard > hope this helps> Sergeant ~ Squire> Lord Rembroes > Scribe ~ Barony Terra Pomaria > raudhara@quicktel.com wrote: > > > Greetings, I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be > strung > > onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify > > scribal work, such as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have > > been looking through different catalogs, both print and online, > and > > have had no luck. I am running out of time, as I need to have the > > necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's Coronation. Does > anyone > > know of anything that might work for this? I need to make 15 > > necklaces, so I need at least one token per necklace. If anyone > has > > any ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT) > > quicktel.com Thank you, Baroness Katya in RaudharaAn Tir ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:09:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Anna Troy Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads How about those little eagle feathers in tin you can get for "indian" work? Anna de Byxe - --- raudhara@quicktel.com wrote: > Greetings, > > I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be > strung onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads > that would signify scribal work, such as scroll > shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking > through different catalogs, both print and online, > and have had no luck. I am running out of time, as I > need to have the necklaces done by next weekend for > An Tir's Coronation. > > Does anyone know of anything that might work for > this? I need to make 15 necklaces, so I need at > least one token per necklace. If anyone has any > ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara > (AT) quicktel.com > > Thank you, > > Baroness Katya in Raudhara > An Tir > ===== "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" has MOVED to: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/crafts __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:40:07 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads - --part1_7d.2a2aa3e9.2a631f87_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/13/2002 6:53:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, raudhara@quicktel.com writes: > I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung onto beaded > necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify scribal work, such as > scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking through different > catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. I am running out of > time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's > Coronation. > > Does anyone know of anything that might work for this? > You might try using the real thing: I did a necklace for a scribe using a dip pen nib tied inside a half a small clam shell. The shell had a hole drilled in the hinge part for a string. The shell was used by many illuminators in the middle ages to hold their paint. Any clam, scallop or oyster shell could work, but you would want a small one. Brandy - --part1_7d.2a2aa3e9.2a631f87_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/13/2002 6:53:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, raudhara@quicktel.com writes:


I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify scribal work, such as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking through different catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. I am running out of time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's Coronation.

Does anyone know of anything that might work for this?


You might try using the real thing: I did a necklace for a scribe using a dip pen nib tied inside a half a small clam shell. The shell had a hole drilled in the hinge part for a string.

The shell was used by many illuminators in the middle ages to hold their paint. Any clam, scallop or oyster shell could work, but you would want a small one.

Brandy - --part1_7d.2a2aa3e9.2a631f87_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:45:44 -0400 From: Della Hutchison Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black hours Two pages (f. 32v and 33) from the Black Prayer Book (Das Schwarze Gebetbuch) on view at http://www.dndgalleries.com/bofh2.html also appear in the book, _Codices Illustres, the world's most famous illuminated manuscripts, 400 to 1600 _ on pp. 362-363. The text mentions a facsimile published in 1982 by Insel Verlag, Franfurt am Main. (Has anyone seen it?) The book also includes three pages (folios 14v and 18v/19r) and a miniature (folio 76v) from The Black Hours located in the Pierpont Morgan Library in New York (M. 493). A facsimile of this was published in 2001 by Faksimile-Verlag Luzern, Lucerne. (Or this one?) The text also mentions that there are _seven_ existing black manuscripts, not four as stated on the webpage: Only four all black vellum horae are known: 1. Vienna, 1856. 2. Pierpont Morgan Library, from the Hoe sale. 3. Hispanic Society, New York, New York. 4. The Vatican, Rome, Italy. Unfortunately, the book does not indicate where they are currently located! Anyone have any leads on the others? Alicia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:45:38 -0400 From: Della Hutchison Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black hours I wrote: > > I sent the website address to the Special Collections > > Librarian at my local University (with whom I am on good > > terms, as she was my fifth grade English teacher some > > while ago ...) ; alas, it was even beyond their budget! > > > > Hmmm.... I wonder .... if everyone on this list contributed, > > could we pony up enough money to buy this one? Peter replied, >I'd be willing to bet that we could...but where would we put it for >safe keeping? :-\ > >I -did- take time to save all 63 of the large JPEG files. We may >never see a copy of that manuscript again....and the sample pictures >are quite detailed. :-) I was thinking a good solution -- if we pulled this off -- would be to donate it to a library. If it was donated with the stipulation that it be allowed to be requested through interlibrary loan -- or, barring that, that digital pictures be made available on-line -- then it would be accessible by all who contributed. Worth pursuing? Alicia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 07:25:13 -0400 From: Dorinda.E.Courtine-White@Cummins.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Scribal Beads The best I have found is to look in the South-West/Native American section and get little metal feathers which can at least sort of represent quills. It is a stretch, but they are the closest I have ever found, and in a pinch they can often be found in your neighborhood craft store. (And certainly at Fire Mt. Gems.) Depending on what you are doing, you might also use a non-scribal symbol. When I was queen and wanted to recognize the scribes I used a symbol from my and my husband's personal heraldry because there just wasn't much scribal stuff out there. On the other hand, if you find something, let me know where you found it!! Dorinda, AEthelmearc raudhara@quickte l.com To: SCA - AnTir Scribes , SCA - Scribes List Sent by: owner-scribes@ca cc: stle.org Subject: [scribes]: Scribal Beads 07/13/02 06:51 PM Greetings, I am desperately searching for scribal tokens to be strung onto beaded necklaces. I am looking for beads that would signify scribal work, such as scroll shapes, quill pen shapes, etc. I have been looking through different catalogs, both print and online, and have had no luck. I am running out of time, as I need to have the necklaces done by next weekend for An Tir's Coronation. Does anyone know of anything that might work for this? I need to make 15 necklaces, so I need at least one token per necklace. If anyone has any ideas that might help, please email me at raudhara (AT) quicktel.com Thank you, Baroness Katya in Raudhara An Tir =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #26 ****************************