From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #17 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, July 1 2002 Volume 08 : Number 017 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Irish Manuscript [scribes]: Irish Manuscript [scribes]: Irish Manuscript [scribes]: Monthly Administrivia Mailing [scribes]: loose leaf gold Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold [scribes]: Color Query Re: [scribes]: More on Iris green Re: [scribes]: Color Query Re: [scribes]: Color Query [scribes]: An Tir scribes - possible commission Re: [scribes]: RE:not by scrolls alone Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold Re: [Fwd: [scribes]: More on Iris green] Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:05:09 -1000 From: "Tara Vaughn" Subject: [scribes]: Irish Manuscript This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2203F.252363E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! I am looking for a reference for a 10th/11th Century Irish Scroll. Can anyone tell me where I can find (preferrably online) a manuscript that would show the illumination and calligraphy for that time period? YIS, Duibheasa Western Seas, Caid - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2203F.252363E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings!

I am looking for a reference = for a=20 10th/11th Century Irish Scroll. Can anyone tell me where I can = find=20 (preferrably online) a manuscript that would show the illumination and=20 calligraphy for that time period?

YIS,

Duibheasa

Western Seas, Caid

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C2203F.252363E0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:04:31 -1000 From: "Tara Vaughn" Subject: [scribes]: Irish Manuscript This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2203F.0E84AE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! I am looking for a reference for a 10th/11th Century Irish Scroll. Can anyone tell me where I can find (preferrably online) a manuscript that would show the illumination and calligraphy for that time period? YIS, Duibheasa Western Seas, Caid - ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2203F.0E84AE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings!

YIS,

Duibheasa

Western Seas, Caid

- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2203F.0E84AE00-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:05:44 -1000 From: "Dubheasa" Subject: [scribes]: Irish Manuscript This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2203F.39A2E340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! I am looking for a reference for a 10th/11th Century Irish Scroll. Can anyone tell me where I can find (preferrably online) a manuscript that would show the illumination and calligraphy for that time period? YIS, Duibheasa Western Seas, Caid - ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2203F.39A2E340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings!

YIS,

Duibheasa

Western Seas, Caid

- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2203F.39A2E340-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 00:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: Monthly Administrivia Mailing This is the monthly mailing of the administrivia information for the scribes mailing list. [Last updated on: Thu Jul 8 21:26:10 PDT 1999] This is the scribes mailing list. It is open for discussion of scribal arts including illumination, calligraphy, paper making, etc. The posting address for scribes is "scribes@castle.org". To unsubscribe, send email to "majordomo@castle.org" with "unsubscribe scribes" in the body of the message. If you want to receive a digest version of this list, unsubscribe from scribes (see the instructions, above) and subscribe to scribes-digest instead. Problems and questions should be addressed to "scribes-owner@castle.org" as the list maintainer may or may not actually read the scribes mailing list. This mailing list is not an official list of the Society for Creative Anachronism, any College of Scribes, or the Barony of Calafia. No spam is allowed on this list. Spammers will be deleted without warning. TECHNICAL NOTE: This mailing list is set up to retain the original author's email address in the From: line. Most email programs will reply directly to the author unless you select the equivalent of "reply to all". This is done to reduce the likelihood of the embarrassing "me too" that happens all too often on mailing lists these days. There are other SCA-related mailing lists hosted @castle.org. scribes@castle.org antir_apprentices@castle.org antir_scribes@castle.org cal_cooking@castle.org caid_scribes@castle.org caid_heralds@castle.org caid_bluefeather@castle.org tanwayour@castle.org You can subscribe to them the same way you subscribed to this list. If you get this far in this message, there are two requests the list maintainer would make: 1. Please send a note of introduction to the scribes list. Say who you are, where you are, and what your scribal interests are. and 2. Please sign your notes to this list with your society name and branch, along with your mundane name and location. Enjoy! Your list maintainer is: Lord Christopher Thomas mka Lee Damon Calafia, Caid San Diego, CA =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 9:10:18 -0400 From: Subject: [scribes]: loose leaf gold Howdy, all, Last night I started using loose leaf gold for the first time. I have always used patent in the past, and have been happy with the results. Somewhere along the way, however, I decided that I should "graduate" to loose leaf. As it happens, I used the last of my patent on a scroll I am finishing, and needed gold for a new piece I am starting. So voila! The time presented itself. This stuff is making me nuts! Can you give me any tips to make it easier? The patent is a piece of cake compared to this. Let me tell you what I am doing, so you will know where I am starting. I have a piece of leather with an unfinished side that I am using for suede. I have exacto blades, both pointy and rounded. I have laid the gold leaf on the suede, and cut it by rocking the curved blade across it. Even so, sometimes it tears and I get a completely random size. I tried moving it onto a piece of the paper the patent gold came on (figured if that isn't glassine, it would probably work about the same) and using that to move it to where I want to place it on the page. Sometimes this worked okay, but sometimes even moving it those few inches got it all wrinkled and folded over. I have also tried picking it up with the tip of my finger-- nearly all of what I am doing is gold ivy leaves, so I need small pieces anyway. This has worked about as well as the glassine. I have heard people talking about using a brush to move it. What kind of brush? Does it have to be natural hair, like sable? I think I remember someone mentioning rubbing it through their hair to make it staticky so it will pick up the leaf-- is that correct? Do you use that to move it to the page itself, or only to the glassine? By the time I get the gesso covered, it is usually sort of mooshed on-- certainly not a neat little tiny sheet of gold laid carefully on the surface. Fortunately, it burnishes up beautifully anyway. I suspect that the gesso will absorb enough moisture from the air that it won't *keep* this nice mirror finish, but I don't know any way to prevent that. Does anyone else? I mean, I'm good, but I can't control the atmosphere!! Lucia, who vows to go back to patent gold =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 08:36:05 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold Lucia, A brush for moving loose leaf is called a gilder's tip. Personally, I often use a large, flat sable hair brush. If you give the brush a tich of static (I don't have very hairy arms, but if I stroke the brush over the back of my arm a few times it's usually enough static) it will 'attract' the gold very well. You can use this method (the brush) to move the gold anywhere you wish - I usually take it directly to it's final home. *grin* Be *sure* that your knives are *clean*!!! No oils or such on them. Wipe the knife blade on a clean piece of soft cloth before you begin to use it. If there are *any* oils on the knife blade, it will often cause the tearing you describe. Some people use a brand new, wipe it off and put it in the knife, blade every time they begin cutting gold then at the end of the session, relegate the blade to other uses in their scribal kit, just to insure a clean blade when working with gold. Loose leaf takes only the lightest hint of a possible movement of air to fold back on itself. You just have to move really slowly in transferring the gold from the gilding cushion to the gesso until you get the hang of it. Patience is a requirement for loose leaf. *grin* I hope this helps. Smiles, Despina - ---------- We are all faced with great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. cited in Bits and Pieces =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:03:45 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold At 08:36 AM 7/1/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I often use a large, flat sable hair brush. This meaning a flat style paintbrush made of hair (fur) gathered from the animal known as a sable. Evidently the message didn't come out as clearly as I intended. Sorry. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:10:45 -0600 From: Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth Subject: [scribes]: Color Query Greetings to the list, and a question. What color of green most closely resembles verdigris? I have no idea what the shade of green is, and I need to mimic the color in a healthy, non-toxic manner. Thanks for your help. Ainesleah ***************************************************************************** Mistress Hermina Matilda de Ainesleah of Meredene, OL Member # 19216 HL Robin Arthur Kyrke, Esq., Forester and Sargent Member # 28653 Barony of Castel Rouge Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Jocelyn Wirth and Greg Young excalibr@gatewest.net ****************************************************************************** =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 11:45:15 -0600 From: Juanita Subject: Re: [scribes]: More on Iris green > escapes me at the moment) was talking about this process and mentioned a > different way to make Iris Green by adding something else which I can't > remember now, "and possibly alum". I know I got the juice to change last > year by using ammonia so maybe he was talking about boiling the juice with > lye (I know one of the things I read last night involved that). He also > speculated that if an acid was added to the iris green, it would probably > change back to purple. Again, not being a chemist I'm not sure that would > work all the time since some chemical reactions can't be reversed that way. anyone tackle this one yet? Just wanting to know before I think about digging in on (shudder) an organic chem question (said the inorganic geochemist) ttfn Therasia (STILL trying to catch up with last week's email...) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 14:15:42 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Color Query There is no 100% good answer to that, so if anyone tells you a definitive answer, they are wrong. However, there are colors that come close. The problems are that A) Verdigris was made from slightly different recipes in different places, so it varied a bit, B) because modern colors with the same names vary a fair bit, and C) because colors will vary when bound in different media. I tend to use chromium oxide green dry pigment from Bocour when I want to imitate verdigris. It could possibly be improved by a hint of added viridian or even phthalo green, but I don't bother. Think grass green. If you see a picture of a Celtic MS like the book of Durrow that actually has decent color reproduction, then you "might" get a hint. It can be spotted in books like that because it has corroded through the parchment and made holes. RanthulfR Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth wrote: > > Greetings to the list, and a question. > > What color of green most closely resembles verdigris? I have no idea what > the shade of green is, and I need to mimic the color in a healthy, > non-toxic manner. > > Thanks for your help. > > Ainesleah > > ***************************************************************************** > Mistress Hermina Matilda de Ainesleah of Meredene, OL Member # 19216 > HL Robin Arthur Kyrke, Esq., Forester and Sargent Member # 28653 > Barony of Castel Rouge Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada > > Jocelyn Wirth and Greg Young excalibr@gatewest.net > ****************************************************************************** > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:45:36 EDT From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Color Query - --part1_36.29c3ca4c.2a51fd50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The answer to this question depends in part on what paints you are working with. The only paints I happen to have right now are W&N gouache, so that is what I will address. Verdigris is the result of natural chemical changes on the surface of copper & bronze. As the weathering is not uniform neither is the color of verdigris when created naturally. Depending on the pollutants in the air there can be a range from yellowish greens to bluish greens. I don't think there are any single greens that are an exact match. I have the color chart in front of me & the Windsor Emerald it not *too* bad, but not perfect. When I am mixing that color I use a variety of colors depending on the effect I want. I tend to use Brilliant green & white & a bit of olive green until I get the color range I want. Good luck. Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_36.29c3ca4c.2a51fd50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The answer to this question depends in part on what paints you are working with. The only paints I happen to have right now are W&N gouache, so that is what I will address.

Verdigris is the result of natural chemical changes on the surface of copper & bronze. As the weathering is not uniform neither is the color of verdigris when created naturally. Depending on the pollutants in the air there can be a range from yellowish greens to bluish greens.

I don't think there are any single greens that are an exact match. I have the color chart in front of me & the Windsor Emerald it not *too* bad, but not perfect. When I am mixing that color I use a variety of colors depending on the effect I want. I tend to use Brilliant green & white & a bit of olive green until I get the color range I want.

Good luck.

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_36.29c3ca4c.2a51fd50_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:57:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: [scribes]: An Tir scribes - possible commission Hello everyone, A month ago, I got a request to make some wedding vows into a scroll. I could not make the time to complete the request, so I had to decline. The bride still wants a scroll, and she's hoping somebody on this list will be interested. She is in An Tir, which is why I'm directing this to scribes in that area, but everyone is welcome to reply. (After all, I'm in Caid, and the original request came from the bride's mother, at an event in the East.) This is a "mundane" project; the bride has SCA connections, but the scroll doesn't have to be in any period style. Naturally, this is a paying commission, but I never mentioned any specific prices, and I'm not sure if she knows what the fair market price would be for her request. In any case, I would suggest anyone who wants this commission to discuss pricing first thing. The wedding, i.e. deadline, is August 18th. If anyone is interested, please reply to me (off-list) ASAP so I can send you the contact information. Thank you, and I apologize for cluttering this list with what is essentially a commercial advertisement. Martha Pennsic-on-the-mind in Darach, Caid __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:27:48 -0400 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: Re: [scribes]: RE:not by scrolls alone This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C22113.DB57BA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>In short: The people interested in commissioning scribework get what = they want,=20 >>even if it's not what their local scribes happen to do best...we = scribes hear=20 >>about more opportunities to do the types of pieces we each enjoy...no = one scribe=20 >>gets burned out. Everybody wins! (But pity the poor schmuck who has = to=20 >>coordinate it all.)=20 >I like this idea. But maybe, instead of one person coordinating it, = perhaps it could be set up so that customers post a job they want done = and >scribes reply with a bid if they want to do it. Then the customer = decides who they are going to pay to do the job. Scribes could also = advertise >themselves on it to solicit jobs. Is that something that = could be set up to work? Sort of like a classified add section for = scribes/artists.=20 May I offer another suggestion--set a minimum price for any work done. = This way, the customer has an idea of price range,and the scribe will be = less likely to undersell their work. The scribes are free to set prices = higher as the demands of the particular commission require, but no less. Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, EK - ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C22113.DB57BA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>>In short: = The people=20 interested in commissioning scribework get what they want, =
>>even if=20 it's not what their local scribes happen to do best...we scribes hear=20
>>about more opportunities to do the types of pieces we each=20 enjoy...no one scribe
>>gets burned out. Everybody wins! = (But pity the poor schmuck who has to
>>coordinate it = all.)=20

>I like this idea. But maybe, instead of one = person=20 coordinating it, perhaps it could be set up so that customers post a job = they=20 want done and >scribes reply with a bid if they want to do it. Then = the=20 customer decides who they are going to pay to do the job. Scribes could = also=20 advertise >themselves on it to solicit jobs. Is that something that = could be=20 set up to work? Sort of like a classified add section for = scribes/artists.=20

May I offer another suggestion--set a minimum price = for any=20 work done. This way, the customer has an idea of price = range,and the = scribe will be less=20 likely to undersell their work. The scribes are free to set prices = higher as the=20 demands of the particular commission require, but no=20 less.

Chiara da Ravenna

Stonemarche, EK

- ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01C22113.DB57BA10-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:34:06 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold - --part1_9c.22324a11.2a5208ae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/1/02 9:12:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, susanart@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Howdy, all, > > Last night I started using loose leaf gold for the first time. I have > always used patent in the past, and have been happy with the results. > Somewhere along the way, however, I decided that I should "graduate" to > loose leaf. As it happens, I used the last of my patent on a scroll I am > finishing, and needed gold for a new piece I am starting. So voila! The > time presented itself. > > This stuff is making me nuts! Can you give me any tips to make it easier? > The patent is a piece of cake compared to this. > > Let me tell you what I am doing, so you will know where I am starting. I > have a piece of leather with an unfinished side that I am using for suede. > I have exacto blades, both pointy and rounded. I have laid the gold leaf on > the suede, and cut it by rocking the curved blade across it. Even so, > sometimes it tears and I get a completely random size. I tried moving it > onto a piece of the paper the patent gold came on (figured if that isn't > glassine, it would probably work about the same) and using that to move it > to where I want to place it on the page. Sometimes this worked okay, but > sometimes even moving it those few inches got it all wrinkled and folded > over. I have also tried picking it up with the tip of my finger-- nearly > all of what I am doing is gold ivy leaves, so I need small pieces anyway. > This has worked about as well as the glassine. I have heard people talking > about using a brush to move it. What kind of brush? Does it have to be > natural hair, like sable? I think ! > I remember someone mentioning rubbing it through their hair to make it > staticky so it will pick up the leaf-- is that correct? Do you use that to > move it to the page itself, or only to the glassine? > > By the time I get the gesso covered, it is usually sort of mooshed on-- > certainly not a neat little tiny sheet of gold laid carefully on the > surface. Fortunately, it burnishes up beautifully anyway. I suspect that > the gesso will absorb enough moisture from the air that it won't *keep* > this nice mirror finish, but I don't know any way to prevent that. Does > anyone else? I mean, I'm good, but I can't control the atmosphere!! > > Lucia, who vows to go back to patent gold Boy, that sounds like what I used on my very first gold leaf project, just last month. I hated it. I was pulling my hair out trying to get the stuff to transfer and lay flat on the page. It wrinkled every time. I though the finished project was ugly, not the oh so pretty stuff I've other folks do. Tamara - --part1_9c.22324a11.2a5208ae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/1/02 9:12:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, susanart@bellsouth.net writes:

Howdy, all,

Last night I started using loose leaf gold for the first time. I have always used patent in the past, and have been happy with the results. Somewhere along the way, however, I decided that I should "graduate" to loose leaf. As it happens, I used the last of my patent on a scroll I am finishing, and needed gold for a new piece I am starting. So voila! The time presented itself.

This stuff is making me nuts! Can you give me any tips to make it easier? The patent is a piece of cake compared to this.

Let me tell you what I am doing, so you will know where I am starting. I have a piece of leather with an unfinished side that I am using for suede. I have exacto blades, both pointy and rounded. I have laid the gold leaf on the suede, and cut it by rocking the curved blade across it. Even so, sometimes it tears and I get a completely random size. I tried moving it onto a piece of the paper the patent gold came on (figured if that isn't glassine, it would probably work about the same) and using that to move it to where I want to place it on the page. Sometimes this worked okay, but sometimes even moving it those few inches got it all wrinkled and folded over. I have also tried picking it up with the tip of my finger-- nearly all of what I am doing is gold ivy leaves, so I need small pieces anyway. This has worked about as well as the glassine. I have heard people talking about using a brush to move it. What kind of brush? Does it have to be natural hair, like sable? I think !
I remember someone mentioning rubbing it through their hair to make it staticky so it will pick up the leaf-- is that correct? Do you use that to move it to the page itself, or only to the glassine?

By the time I get the gesso covered, it is usually sort of mooshed on-- certainly not a neat little tiny sheet of gold laid carefully on the surface. Fortunately, it burnishes up beautifully anyway. I suspect that the gesso will absorb enough moisture from the air that it won't *keep* this nice mirror finish, but I don't know any way to prevent that. Does anyone else? I mean, I'm good, but I can't control the atmosphere!! <G>

Lucia, who vows to go back to patent gold

Boy, that sounds like what I used on my very first gold leaf project, just last month. I hated it. I was pulling my hair out trying to get the stuff to transfer and lay flat on the page. It wrinkled every time. I though the finished project was ugly, not the oh so pretty stuff I've other folks do.

Tamara - --part1_9c.22324a11.2a5208ae_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 13:55:44 -0600 From: Juanita Subject: Re: [Fwd: [scribes]: More on Iris green] El Hermoso Dormido wrote: > At 11:42 am, you wrote: > > any thoughts? It's in the back of my head that certain pH shifts > > do things to fix organic colors > > Yup - that's how all of those chemical dropper pH indicators work. > Different chemicals work differently, but there are a lot of them > out there in the Organic world that change shape when the pH hits > a certain point, which changes the color of the solution. If you've > ever done titration with phenolphthalein you've seen it (turning > from colorless to pink when the pH hits a certain point). actually, phenolphthalein was what I used as the flourite/CaOOH boundary indicator in the Chlorine Triflouride waste neutralization system at UCDavis. Better living through alchemy strikes again... > So, yes, I suspect adding an acid to the green probably WOULD change > the color back. > > (If someone were really bored, they could probably also do some simple > "paper chromatography" with some coffee filter paper, putting drops of > extracts from the different flows on to the center and seeing how many > different dye chemicals separate out on each one...) could be fun...maybe for next year's kingdom A&S competition ;-) Now that I think about it, there's a bunch of similar reactions described in the Plictho, the early 16th C. Italian dye recipe book I have checked out from ISU's library - most of which are controlled by the addition or either urine or alum, with acetic acid as a fixative if my memory isn't broke So perhaps this suggests that some of the period organic pigments might be fixable, though I wonder if the paper or vellum/parchemnt used would stand up to such drastic pH yanks. Considering some of the problems in musuem conservation with the tannic and gallic acid based inks, I suspect that this would be the case. So now this leaves me wondering then, about the stability of verdigris, which Cennini suggests be worked up with acetic acid. Do you remember what the National Gallery's Artists' Pigments (vol 2?) article said about stability and whether the deliberate oxidation of the verdigris made a difference? =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:07:43 -0400 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: Re: [scribes]: loose leaf gold This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0125_01C22119.6E84A140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I first used loose gold, I put the sheet in a folded piece of = tracine paper, then cut it into little squares. Works great, but leaves you with lots = of confetti to sort through.=20 I took a class with the lady who wrote The Gilded Page (Kathleen = Whitley, ska Caitlin Fitzhenry). She takes the book of leaf in her "off" hand, = pulling back the=20 top page(s) until just about a half inch or so of the first sheet of = gold is exposed, dangles it, edge down, so the one sheet of gold is loose enough to slip = small (and Very Clean) scissors under, and snips off the desired size chunks, which = fall onto the gilder's pad just below. I hope this makes sense, it's hard to = describe.=20 To move them, you can use any soft, clean brush, doensn't have to be = sable, but natural bristles are best, and either get static from your hair, or = brush it gently on your face or nose, to pick up just a touch of oil, then pick up the = gold. This has=20 worked well for me, YMMV.=20 Good luck! Chiara - ------=_NextPart_000_0125_01C22119.6E84A140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When I first used loose gold, I put the = sheet in a=20 folded piece of tracine paper,

then cut it into little squares. Works = great, but=20 leaves you with lots of confetti

to sort through.

I took a class with the lady who wrote = The Gilded=20 Page (Kathleen Whitley, ska

Caitlin Fitzhenry). She takes the book = of leaf in=20 her "off" hand, pulling back the

top page(s) until just about a half = inch or so of=20 the first sheet of gold is exposed,

dangles it, edge down, so the one sheet = of gold is=20 loose enough to slip small (and

Very Clean) scissors under, and snips = off the=20 desired size chunks, which fall onto

the gilder's pad just below. I hope = this makes=20 sense, it's hard to describe.

To move them, you can use any soft, = clean brush,=20 doensn't have to be sable, but

natural bristles are best, and either = get static=20 from your hair, or brush it gently on

your face or nose, to pick up just a = touch of oil,=20 then pick up the gold. This has

worked well for me, YMMV.

Good luck!

Chiara

- ------=_NextPart_000_0125_01C22119.6E84A140-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #17 ****************************