From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #15 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, June 28 2002 Volume 08 : Number 015 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: red as Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess [scribes]: Scribalarts.org down tomorrow periodically [scribes]: [medieval-leather] The Maciejowski Bible / Old Testament Miniatures is now online (fwd) Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Marketing Strategy Re: [scribes]: Introduction and question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:54:44 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Hillary Greenslade wrote: > snip > > I can see how logic would seem that way, however generally the scroll would > not be considered the 'gift', so much as the title that goes with it is the > gift... but by tradition (and if something is done twice or three times, it > becomes a tradition in the SCA!!), the scrolls go with the title as a 'gift' > from the crown. > > As for coronets being 'gifts' from the Crown, in Ansteorra, the Crown has a > cache of simple inexpensive brass fillets of 1.5-2 inch sizes, that they > present, which is oft replaced later when the recipient commissions > something of their own from an artisan. In this case, the coronet is indeed > a 'gift' from the Crown. These two items together form what I see as both problem and solution > Traditions of more-or-less real scrolls developed in most kingdoms. In some kingdoms, expectations of the uniquesness and quality of those awards went up (oh, you want real paint, not paint-pens? Oh, you want a border as well as a capitol? Oh you want it to look like the work of a master illuminator page in a documentable book of hours? - I started just post magic markers as 'real' scrolls...) Well, as I saw in Atlantia and Northshield, traditions can be changed, and maybe the Ansteorra cononets are a good model to aim for... Sure, we can keep making more-or-less real scrolls for court, (where that is done): A simple one that looks nice enough to hand on a wall and has the pertinent information as part of the court procedings (maybe some preprints in some cases, if the designs are not over-used); and let the recipient or a friend of the recipient commission the fancy ones, if they are interested. Or scribes can give fancier ones as personal gifts, just as I once saw a warchest engraved with the laurel 'scroll' text given to the friend of a woodworker. (Now wouldn't THAT be a nice tradition! I'm sure we have as many woodworkers as scribes, and some kingdoms are willing to help pay for supplies...) Yes, its nice that we are nice people and donate our work; but if our generosity is so taken for granted that it devalues our efforts, I fear we do ourselves and other artists a great disservice. > > enid > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:44:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess - --- Saradwen wrote: > I have a real problem with my powdered alizarin crimson pigment being > excessively grainy. Yup, I just checked my paints, and it's the W&N 'alizarin crimson' that gets grainy for me, too. Like I noted before, it's usually just a matter of mashing it back into shape with a blunt instrument. I haven't noticed any improvement from adding gum arabic. I still like the alizarin better than the "primary red", though. Unlike the latter, it doesn't turn a violent magenta or fuschia as soon as you add white. And I've never had coverage problems with it, again unlike the primary red. But this brings up a question for anyone who has done white vine: what specific colors/paints/pigments do you use for the red/pink areas? I mix the alizarin with zinc white and a touch of spectrum yellow, trying to keep in mind that most reds dry darker than they look when wet. For that matter, do you prefer red or pink for white vine? Personally, I like an off-red, if that's a color; several shades away from fire engine, but definitely not pink, either. (As far as period practice, I've seen examples in pretty much every shade between palest pink and not-quite-fire-engine, inclusive. And on the light-pink exemplars, the ink and the other colors tend to look faded, so my suspicion is that they were at least somewhat darker when originally painted.) Márti Darach, Caid __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:47:17 -0500 From: "Dawn" Subject: Re: red as Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - --MS_Mac_OE_3108066437_193231_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I usually use Holbein gouache when I can (they can be costly), and have a ton of Talens and Pebeo (they were inexpensive, so....) I have had NO problems with the Holbein Alizarin Crimson, but the Talens did get gritty on me when I went to re-use what was in the palette. I just kept working the paint with the brush until it decided to play nice ;-) Overall, I've been fairly satisfied with the Talens and the Pebeo, considering their price. I did use the French School stuff once and was not happy with it. So... if anyone is looking for reasonably priced paints that are decent, I'd recommend them. Madeleine (who just went through her scribes' box and discovered sixty tubes of paint - in addition to the powdered metallic gouaches that are in there... Is there a twelve-step program for this???) - ---------- From: PDRUSS@aol.com To: scribes@castle.org Subject: red as Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Date: Thu, Jun 27, 2002, 9:37 PM In a message dated 6/27/02 6:42:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meisterin@comteck.com writes: A couple people have mentioned problems with graininess in their W&N reds... I've not experienced this myself... what reds are you working with?? I like to use their Spectrum Red for most French illuminations, as the shade is very close to the one used in manuscripts. I like to use their Cadmium Red Deep for rubication, and sometimes, in rare instances, I like to use Permanent Red. Now, I ran into graininess with their Cobalt Blue... nearly drove me nuts, until I switched to Cobalt Blue Hue... same color, no graininess. Would there by any chance be a web site somewhere with this information on problems with certain colors of paints. Reds have always been my big bugaboo also. I've read several scribal web sites but have never seen this problem listed on them. Of course I still have some sites to go, to read them all. But if some of the more experienced scribes had this info in a print or web form I would really like a copy of it. I thought I done something wrong to the paints. I had one scroll where the reds just refused to stay on the paper. They were streaky and blotchy and just ugly. The other colors had no problem. I didn't know if it was the paper, me or the paint. Tamara - --MS_Mac_OE_3108066437_193231_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: red   as Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess
I usually use Holbein gouache when I can (they can be costly), and have a t= on of Talens and Pebeo (they were inexpensive, so....)  I have had NO p= roblems with the Holbein Alizarin Crimson, but the Talens did get gritty on = me when I went to re-use what was in the palette.  I just kept working = the paint with the brush until it decided to play nice ;-)

Overall, I've been fairly satisfied with the Talens and the Pebeo, consider= ing their price.  I did use the French School stuff once and was not ha= ppy with it.  So... if anyone is looking for reasonably priced paints t= hat are decent, I'd recommend them.  

Madeleine (who just went through her scribes' box and discovered sixty tube= s of paint - in addition to the powdered metallic gouaches that are in there= ...  Is there a twelve-step program for this???)

- ----------
From: PDRUSS@aol.com
To: scribes@castle.org
Subject: red   as Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess
Date: Thu, Jun 27, 2002, 9:37 PM


In a message dated 6/27/02 6:42:49 PM Easter= n Daylight Time, meisterin@comteck.com w= rites:




A couple people have mentioned problems with graininess in their W&N re= ds...
I've not experienced this myself... what reds are you working with??  = I like to
use their Spectrum Red for most French illuminations, as the shade is very = close
to the one used in manuscripts.  I like to use their Cadmium Red Deep = for
rubication, and sometimes, in rare instances, I like to use Permanent Red. =  Now,
I ran into graininess with their Cobalt Blue... nearly drove me nuts, until= I
switched to Cobalt Blue Hue... same color, no graininess.




Would there by any chance be a web site somewhere with this information on = problems with certain colors of paints. Reds have always been my big bugaboo= also. I've read several scribal web sites but have never seen this problem = listed on them. Of course I still have some sites to go, to read them all. <= BR>
But if some of the more experienced scribes had this info in a print or web= form I would really like a copy of it.

I thought I done something wrong to the paints.

I had one scroll where the reds just refused to stay on the paper. They wer= e streaky and blotchy and just ugly. The other colors had no problem. I didn= 't know if it was the paper, me or the paint.


Tamara
- --MS_Mac_OE_3108066437_193231_MIME_Part-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:01:46 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Yeah, sap from plum and cherry trees also works. Read your Thompson!!! Randy/RanthulfR Helen Schultz wrote: > > Jaquelinne: > > No question on this list is EVER a dumb one!!! Get that into your head right > now, hear??? > > Gum arabic is one of several binders that can be used to make pigments stick > together on the page (on a canvas or panel, for that matter). Also used were > glair (egg whites) and egg yolks. I keep thinking that there were more > binders... Randy??? Help...... > > Gum arabic is made from grinding up the dried sap from a Persian Acacia tree > until it is in powder form and then dissolving it in water. Gum Ammoniac is > also from tree sap (not positive of type, though) but it is distilled rather > than ground up. Gum Ammoniac is used mostly as a gilding base, but I think > (again, Randy???) it might also be used as a binder for paints. Don't quote me > on that part, though. > > Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn (KHvS), OL > Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) > Middle Kingdom > http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Crystal Olsen" > To: "Scribe's List" > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 5:47 PM > Subject: RE: [scribes]: Paint Graininess > > > Okay, really dumb question... what exactly is gum arabic, and what does it do? > > > > Jaquelinne > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:06:50 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess In a message dated 06/27/02 8:03:07 PM, Saradwen inquired: << Now here's my question to all of you: Can anyone point me to a good source to document the use of Oxgall in period? >> I don't know about use of oxgall in painting; I think oxgall in marbling can be documented to period or just past in Europe and western Asia. They had to have some kind of surfactent for some of the effects they got -- give me a few days to check sources Luighseach =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:30:48 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess - --part1_134.1071457a.2a4d4e88_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 11:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sburnell@raex.com writes: > > Tamara queries: > My question is, what is the difference between gum arabic and ox gall? > What is each used for? > ---------------------------------------- > > Gum arabic is a binding agent. It is made from ther resin from the gum > acacia tree. It basically helps the paint to stick to the page. > > Oxgall is a wetting agent. I understand it's one of the things that they > use > in paper marbling. I add one or two drops to my paint wash water (the stuff > you clean your brushes with, and make sure you always use distilled water, > not tap water!), then add that water, via the brush, to the powdered > pigment > and gum arabic mixture. This will make your pigment go on very smooth and > easy. > > Oxgall is made from the bile fluid from the gall bladder of an ox. I bought > my bottle of it kind of by accident. I happen to live a half block from a > very good art store (Kent State University has a pretty good art > department, > and I live across the street from the University), and one day I was over > at > the art store buying some scribey stuff and when I was casually perusing > the > other stuff that the store had, I saw this section of stuff like linseed > oil, oxgall, gum arabic and other paint needs. Curiosity being one of my > attributes, I picked up the bottle of oxgall, and having no idea whatsoever > what it was or what it was used for (but hey, it sure sounded Mediaeval!), > I > bought it and took it home. > > Boy, am I ever glad I did! > > I hope that answers your question, Tamara! > > Now here's my question to all of you: Can anyone point me to a good source > to document the use of Oxgall in period? > > Thanks! > > ~Saradwen > Midrealm > > Thank you, I'm printing this out. Tamara - --part1_134.1071457a.2a4d4e88_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 11:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sburnell@raex.com writes:



Tamara queries:
My question is, what is the difference between gum arabic and ox gall?
What is each used for?
- ----------------------------------------

Gum arabic is a binding agent. It is made from ther resin from the gum
acacia tree. It basically helps the paint to stick to the page.

Oxgall is a wetting agent. I understand it's one of the things that they use
in paper marbling. I add one or two drops to my paint wash water (the stuff
you clean your brushes with, and make sure you always use distilled water,
not tap water!), then add that water, via the brush, to the powdered pigment
and gum arabic mixture. This will make your pigment go on very smooth and
easy.

Oxgall is made from the bile fluid from the gall bladder of an ox. I bought
my bottle of it kind of by accident. I happen to live a half block from a
very good art store (Kent State University has a pretty good art department,
and I live across the street from the University), and one day I was over at
the art store buying some scribey stuff and when I was casually perusing the
other stuff that the store had, I saw this section of stuff like linseed
oil, oxgall, gum arabic and other paint needs. Curiosity being one of my
attributes, I picked up the bottle of oxgall, and having no idea whatsoever
what it was or what it was used for (but hey, it sure sounded Mediaeval!), I
bought it and took it home.

Boy, am I ever glad I did!

I hope that answers your question, Tamara!

Now here's my question to all of you: Can anyone point me to a good source
to document the use of Oxgall in period?

Thanks!

~Saradwen
  Midrealm






Thank you, I'm printing this out.


Tamara - --part1_134.1071457a.2a4d4e88_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:03:32 -0700 From: Juanita Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess >Try regrinding the red before rewetting - >messy but it worked for me. I'm just trying to catch up with all of the email that landed in my box today...is there a digest form of this list? Anyway, I read through this whole thread from start to finish and I noticed something interesting and puzzling. Now, I realise that I may be about to rock the boat a little, so please, remember to be nice to the poor, hot, overworked geologist just in from a long hot day in the desert... Ragnar's comment above is an example that a whole bunch of folks are working their paints up from pigment powders mulled into gum arabic solution. If I recall correctly, one post indicated that alizarin was being worked up from powdered pigment.... ...at which point, my tired brain came screeching to a halt, and the thought bubbled up: why????? Alizarin is a coal tar derivative. It's the height of 19th century science! It's very pretty stuff, but it isn't anything like a period pigment. You can jump, bind and gag me when you can catch up with me, and stuff me into the closet for the rest of time, but until then, I have to wonder: why bother for a non-period pigment powder when the stuff that WN makes out of a tube is a lot quicker and easier to use, and doesn't have the graininess problem if you remember a drop of ox gall or a pinch of salt in your brush water???? As far as the tube pigments go, if you restrict yourself to WN permanency A or better, you should have no problems with graininess with the exception of viridian. If you're using powdered pigments, ones gotten from a colorman should already meet ASTM fineness standards if sold in the USA - assuming your pigment vendor isn't cheating. All ground pigments should pass an ASTM 423 mesh paint sieve, and anything that fine shouldn't be grainy. It should not be too surprising that dried and then rewetted paint from powdered pigments may be grainy - because you destroyed the uniformity of the particle size of the pigment by binding it with the aglutenant (in this case, I'll assume gum arabic). Having bound some particles together into bigger ones with the aglutenant, I don't find it surprising that graininess can be introduced in the rewetted paint. I've run into it myself, and after a little thought, I realised the graininess was the simple consequence of the physics of glue. Destroy the dried aglutenant, and the graininess will go away. When I make paint worked up from powdered pigment, if I don't use it all the first time around, I always soak the dried leftovers to destroy, dilute and then drench away any gum arabic, and upon redrying and a quick "regrind" I'm back to essentially my original powdered pigment (azurite and malachite are the exceptions - NEVER regrind them!!!). I admit though that I don't use factory powdered pigments - I hunt down and kill my own rocks for paint, or I use good old WN gouache. If it wasn't a pigment used in period, I don't bother to work it up from a store-bought powder. It just doesn't make sense to me. I admit I may be missing something here, but I really am kinda confused. Why all the trouble for a non-period pigment? ttfn Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:17:57 -0400 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Good Therasia, > Now, I realise that I may be about to rock the boat a > little, so please, remember to be nice to the poor, hot, > overworked geologist just in from a long hot day in the > desert... Rocking the boat is a delightful pastime, don't you think? You are a geologist? I'd very much enjoy talking with you about rocks, minerals & the like - offlist. I'm a lapidary as well as a mineral pigment junkie. > If I recall correctly, one post indicated that alizarin was being > worked up from powdered pigment.... > > ...at which point, my tired brain came screeching > to a halt, and the thought bubbled up: > > why????? > > Alizarin is a coal tar derivative. It's the height of > 19th century science! It's very pretty stuff, but it > isn't anything like a period pigment. There is a simple explanation for this. Alizarin is indeed a coal tar derivative....but the pigment was not -discovered- in synthetic form. Alizarin has been used as a dyestuff (and, when bound in "lake" form, as a pigment) for thousands of years. The colour occurs naturally in the root of the "Madder" plant. (Perhaps you have seen W&N's "Genuine Rose Madder" watercolour?) Synthetic Alizarin is more concentrated, and more vibrant in colour, than the plant derivative. Unfortunately, as you are no doubt aware, Alizarin colours are not lightfast. They survive rather well when protected from direct exposure to sunlight; but they fade quickly in unprotected works of art. (W&N has recently released a lightfast substitute, called "Quinacridone Red". I highly recommend this product to anyone who prefers the gentle hues of Alizarin to the more opaque and powerful Cadmium and Mercury reds.) > When I make paint worked up from powdered pigment, if I > don't use it all the first time around, I always soak the > dried leftovers to destroy, dilute and then drench away any > gum arabic, and upon redrying and a quick "regrind" I'm back > to essentially my original powdered pigment (azurite and > malachite are the exceptions - NEVER regrind them!!!). I agree that malachite and azurite should never be reground. Both copper carbonate minerals tend to become paler as the particle size is reduced. Do you know of any reason not to soak, wash and reuse them -without- regrinding? I'm very curious about this... > I admit though that I don't use factory powdered pigments - I > hunt down and kill my own rocks for paint... Yes! Another gem slayer! Welcome! > If it wasn't a pigment used in period, I don't > bother to work it up from a store-bought powder. It just > doesn't make sense to me. Agreed. Even though the pigment (Alizarin) -is- Period in this case, it isn't lightfast enough for use in Scrolls. (I'll probably get some horrified responses to -that- statement. ) "Genuine Rose Madder" is a remarkable pigment...and it deserves a place on the Scribal palette. For some reason, the plant derivative is more resistant to light than the synthetic. Despite this, I would reserve it for paintings which will be protected from direct sunlight. > I admit I may be missing something here, but I really am kinda confused. > Why all the trouble for a non-period pigment? No good reason, in this case - unless the artist wants to have more control over the pigment/binder ratio, or if the artist wishes to use a Period binder other than gum arabic. Take care! I look forward to hearing from you... YIS, Peter Peter Gwer Rychen von Bern Lapidary and Scribal Arts Barony of The Rhyderrich Hael Aethelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:18:20 -0700 From: "Kenneth A. Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: Scribalarts.org down tomorrow periodically My electric utility is doing some line work in my neighborhood. This means that once or twice tomorrow the power will be shut-off to my home. This means that the scribalarts.org web server and email server will be down for a short while tomorrow. Unfortunately the power company cannot tell me exactly when the power will go down. :-( The outage is only scheduled to last for 30 minutes while they transfer the load to a different transmission system. This is embarassing to me because I was hoping to be able to boast of no down-time for the month of June. :-( Keeping ScribalArts up and available is important to me... But my UPS won't last for a half hour, and I don't own a generator. Please forgive the service outage. CASTLE.ORG and the scribes list are NOT affected by this outage, as they are on CT's servers, and he lives in a different part of the city than I do. Cystennin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:11:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: [scribes]: [medieval-leather] The Maciejowski Bible / Old Testament Miniatures is now online (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:39:15 -0500 (CDT) From: J. Patrick Hughes To: Cecelia Mary Hughes Sr Subject: [medieval-leather] The Maciejowski Bible / Old Testament Miniatures is now online (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:13:41 -0400 From: rmhowe Reply-To: medieval-leather@yahoogroups.com To: - Atlantia , - Regia Anglorum - North America Subject: [medieval-leather] The Maciejowski Bible / Old Testament Miniatures is now online http://www.keesn.nl/mac/mac_en.htm - ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/sK9olB/TM - ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:49:44 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess >I don't know about use of oxgall in painting; I think oxgall in marbling can >be documented to period or just past in Europe and western Asia. They had to >have some kind of surfactent for some of the effects they got -- give me a >few days to check sources I haven't time to look through my stuff for the oxgall references in painting but I am currently researching a couple of different types of marbling and yes, it is used in the Turkish style of marbling, as well as the English type. SMiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 06:57:54 -0700 From: "Mary Edenfield" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C21E71.205FC440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My question is, what is the difference between gum arabic and ox gall? What is each used for? Gum arabic is sticky, it's a binder, meaning it binds the pigment = particles together and to the ground they are painted out on. Ox gall = is used as a [mmm insert specific word here which escapes my memory this = early in the morning] it makes the dry pigment take up liquid. Otherwise = some pigments would not absorb water or gum arabic. My usually procedure = when mixing these pigments {and synthetic alizarin is one of the worst} = I put one or two drops of ox gall into the paint well with the pigment = and stir them together, then a couple of drops of plain water, until I = have a thick paste, without any dry bits. Then I add about as much gum = arabic as I did water, until I have a smooth creamy paint, then paint = out a test patch to check that it is enough binder. Mairi, in Atenveldt, where the whole kingdom is making it self felt in = the mundane world in an awesome way, donating and volunteering with the = releif effort for the victims of the Rodeo-Chedeski fire. Mary Edenfield Canyon Keep Enterprises www.canyonkeep.com period pigments, natural dyes, books - ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C21E71.205FC440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My question is, what is the difference between gum arabic and = ox=20 gall?
What is each used for?
 
Gum arabic is sticky, it's a binder, meaning it = binds the=20 pigment particles together and to the ground they are painted out on. Ox = gall  is used as a [mmm insert specific word here which escapes my = memory=20 this early in the morning] it makes the dry pigment take up liquid. = Otherwise=20 some pigments would not absorb water or gum arabic. My usually procedure = when=20 mixing these pigments {and synthetic alizarin is one of the worst} I put = one or=20 two drops of ox gall into the paint well with the pigment and stir them=20 together, then a couple of drops of plain water, until I have a thick = paste,=20 without any dry bits. Then I add about as much gum arabic as I did = water, until=20 I have a smooth creamy paint, then paint out a test patch to check that = it is=20 enough binder.
 
Mairi, in Atenveldt, where the whole kingdom is = making it self=20 felt in the mundane world in an awesome way, donating and volunteering = with the=20 releif effort for the victims of the Rodeo-Chedeski = fire.
 
Mary Edenfield
Canyon Keep Enterprises
www.canyonkeep.com
period pigments, natural dyes, books

 - ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01C21E71.205FC440-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:00:45 -0400 From: "Danielle Scott" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Marketing Strategy >I daresay that, while the average Scribe has -no- desire >to charge $500.00 for an award Scroll, she has a -strong- >desire to see her work -treated- as a $500.00 work of Art. I agree wholeheartedly with this and have horror stories of the person recieving the scroll throughing it in the trunk with his shield and armor for it to be mangled. ::shuddering over the thought even now:: When I sell an original piece of work or my graphic work I know its appreciated because people are willing to pay the price without a second thought. >Renaissance Faires are another good forum in which to >market Period C&I. I've seen scribal work sell at >professional Ren Faires for prices that would shock >most SCAdians! I wish you a lot of luck in that department. Some faires charge a great deal for the sales space. (thinking perhaps you may be able to set up like an art show demo) I spoke with the management at the local renn faire last year about the possibility of Demoing C&I and doing a tournament scroll because our faire hosted the national jousting tournament. Unfortunately it just wasn't early enough to set anything up, so I suggest contact the manager extremely early. Good Luck and now that I think of it I need to call ours today. Back to the studio, Best of C&I, Daniela Barony of Bright Hills, Atlantia _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:31:02 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Introduction and question - --part1_f8.1d965097.2a4e3da6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/2002 10:24:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kara_westfall@hotmail.com writes: > > > Savoir Faire (The French School) gouache Just Does Not Rehydrate. > > I've seen this, but never thought to look at the label for ingredients-- > I suspect it may actually be an acrylic. There are some acrylic paints > that either call themselves gouache, or use the term in their description. > I think they use "gouache" to mean "paint has a creamy consistency and > dries to a matte finish" . > > > Chiara > I believe you are right, Chiara. There are two types of gouache: water-based and acrylic-based. There should be something on the tube that indicates the difference. You really want to use the water-based gouache for SCA scrolls, since it is closer to what was actually used in period. Plus you can rehydrate it, which is, in my opinion, the main redeeming quality of gouache. (Sorry folks, I am just not overly fond of this type of paint because it dries so quickly. Actual period pigments are easier to work with than gouache.) Unfortunately, most of the gouache you see in art stores is the acrylic kind. You really have to look for the water-based kind. The only brand I have found around my area in the water-based is by Windsor-Newton. Of course, that means it is a quality paint - and you pay for it! But it is worth the expense and one tube should last you eons. Brandy - --part1_f8.1d965097.2a4e3da6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/2002 10:24:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kara_westfall@hotmail.com writes:



> Savoir Faire (The French School) gouache Just Does Not Rehydrate.

I've seen this, but never thought to look at the label for ingredients--
I suspect it may actually be an acrylic. There are some acrylic paints
that either call themselves gouache, or use the term in their description.
I think they use "gouache" to mean "paint has a creamy consistency and
dries to a matte finish" .


Chiara


I believe you are right, Chiara. There are two types of gouache: water-based and acrylic-based. There should be something on the tube that indicates the difference. You really want to use the water-based gouache for SCA scrolls, since it is closer to what was actually used in period. Plus you can rehydrate it, which is, in my opinion, the main redeeming quality of gouache. (Sorry folks, I am just not overly fond of this type of paint because it dries so quickly. Actual period pigments are easier to work with than gouache.)

Unfortunately, most of the gouache you see in art stores is the acrylic kind. You really have to look for the water-based kind. The only brand I have found around my area in the water-based is by Windsor-Newton. Of course, that means it is a quality paint - and you pay for it! But it is worth the expense and one tube should last you eons.

Brandy - --part1_f8.1d965097.2a4e3da6_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #15 ****************************