From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #14 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, June 27 2002 Volume 08 : Number 014 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Red reconstituted [scribes]: Re: Handwriting [scribes]: Re: Handwriting (addendum) [scribes]: Marketing Strategy Re: [scribes]: Re: Belt Book/Girdle Book [scribes]: Paint Graininess RE: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: re: final price Re: [scribes]: Introduction and question red as Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:54:33 -0400 From: "D Humberson" Subject: [scribes]: Red reconstituted Try regrinding the red before rewetting - messy but it worked for me. Ragnar Ketilsson >From: Lee Damon >To: scribes@castle.org >Subject: [scribes]: (FWD) more auto-bounced email to scribes list >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:57:22 -0700 > >Please respond to the sender, not to me. > >postmaster@castle.org > >------- Forwarded Message > >Message-ID: <003201c21dfc$5d40ff20$aabead8e@ab.hsia.telus.net> >From: "Melaena" >To: "Scribes' list" >References: <20020627171128.19906.qmail@web14703.mail.yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: [scribes]: Introduction and question >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:01:43 -0500 > > > The one exception to the easy-reconstituting is certain kinds of red, >which > > turn gritty when reconstituted. (At least for the Winsor & Newton >brand.) > > >Is *that* the problem! > >I'm pleased to see this happens to other people too. I use W and N gouache >too and I thought I was losing my mind. Just couldn't keep the red nice >and >smooth. > >Thanks for telling the list! Now I know I am not alone! > >=) > >Margareta vanden Velde >Montengarde-Avacal-An Tir > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > > >=================================================================== >To unsubscribe from this list, send email to >with a blank Subject: line and >unsubscribe scribes >in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in >the body. > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:05:05 -0400 From: Elizabeth Blatt Subject: [scribes]: Re: Handwriting At 6:19 AM -1000 6/27/02, Jan McEwen wrote: > > interest would be learning more of the turn of the 16th century stuff - >> especially the handwriting - but I'll take what I get for now. > >I'd be interested in learning about the handwriting and writs during the >time of the English Civil War (I know, gray period), since that is one of >my sweetheart's time interests. > Here are a few quick comments on handwriting; I've been looking at this in the context of letters, and have been able to see examples (facsimiles, photocopies, not originals) of handwritten documents from the 14th - 17th centuries. * There were several different scripts used for handwriting during this period; the primary ones were Italic, Chancery, Secretary, and Gothic Cursive (specifically in England: Anglicana). * The script used could change from language to language (Sir Thomas More used one script--a Chancery hand, IIRC-- to write marginal notations in his prayer book in English, and used an Italic script to write notations in the same book in Latin). * The script used could change based on the audience (John Dee wrote to a peer, a colleague of his, in a secretary script, and wrote a letter to Queen Elizabeth in Italic; King Maximillian the Somethingth of the Holy Roman Empire wrote, in the 15th c. IIRC, a letter in an italic script to a Bishop, and then wrote a letter to a merchant in a Gothic cursive script). Also, a script like italic might be more heavily flourished when writing to a higher-ranked person--the extra time taken in writing signified the honor accorded to the recipient. * People might mix styles (Queen Elizabeth's handwriting mixes secretary and italic letter-forms). Just like modern handwriting, there was a lot of variety on the individual level. * In the 16th century, it was advocated (in texts published in England, like--again, IIRC--Joan Luis Vives' text on teaching methodologies, or raising women, I forget which) that women be taught italic, because it was more simple and thus easier to learn, and a clear and attractive hand, if they were only going to learn one. Again, all my stuff is packed and such, so I don't have a bibliography at hand to offer, but a couple good books--if you can get your hands on them, as they're all out of print, I think--are Anthony G. Petti's _English Literary Scripts from Chaucer to Dryden_, Dawson and Skipton's _Elizabethan Handwriting 1500-1650_, and _English Handwriting 1400-1650_ by Laetitia Yeandle and Jean F. Preston. The bibliography to the Compleat Anachronist on letter-writing lists a few other texts, I think, which have photocopies of letters and such. This website (http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/scripts/scrindex.htm) also has some images of scripts used for handwriting. Hope some of this information is useful! Elianora Mathewes Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, AE =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:12:36 -0400 From: Elizabeth Blatt Subject: [scribes]: Re: Handwriting (addendum) At 4:05 PM -0400 6/27/02, Elizabeth Blatt wrote: >At 6:19 AM -1000 6/27/02, Jan McEwen wrote: >> > interest would be learning more of the turn of the 16th century stuff - >>> especially the handwriting - but I'll take what I get for now. >> >>I'd be interested in learning about the handwriting and writs during the >>time of the English Civil War (I know, gray period), since that is one of > >my sweetheart's time interests. >> > >Here are a few quick comments on handwriting; I've been looking at this in the context of letters, and have been able to see examples (facsimiles, photocopies, not originals) of handwritten documents from the 14th - 17th centuries. > I should clarify: by 17th century, I meant early 17th; I would struggle to have anything useful to say past 1615 or so. - --Elianora =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:34:26 -0400 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: [scribes]: Marketing Strategy This is an excellent idea, Phaedrus! Renaissance Faires are another good forum in which to market Period C&I. I've seen scribal work sell at professional Ren Faires for prices that would shock most SCAdians! This sort of shock has the potential to effect great good. I daresay that, while the average Scribe has -no- desire to charge $500.00 for an award Scroll, she has a -strong- desire to see her work -treated- as a $500.00 work of Art. Does anyone disagree with my last statement? Respect follows Understanding. Understanding (in 21st Century America) follows the bottom line. I don't -like- that fact; but the fact will not go away simply because I (or we as a Guild, we as a class of artisans, we as individuals) choose to deny it. SCA Scribes have been denying this fact for a very long time - while at the same time complaining about the consequences of our denial. Peter Allen Freeman wrote: > > I applaud this line of reasoning, and have a few ideas > geared to produce options. It's a known thing that > there is a market for calligraphy in the mundane > world. it's also a known thing that there are markets > for illumination and illustration. it's a known thing > that SCAdian scribes possess true talent in both of > these areas. The question is, then, why not cash in? > Instead of having each scribe wander out into the art > market alone and have them struggle to market > themselves, why not form consortiums? There are > several scriptoriums in the known world comprised of > many talented scribes. Why not market the scriptorium > as a whole, then farm work out to the scribes whose > talents match the project contracted? > Another potential angle would be the local and > regional art scenes. Gather portfolios, pound > pavement. Find venues to show work and facilitate > retail sales. Or if that's not your cup of tea, market > yourself to the global art scene. Ebay is a powerful > tool these days for putting sellers in touch with > buyers. A web site geared towards the same goal would > be easy to acomplish and would require a minimum of > upkeep once running. > Also, don't forget your local, regional, and > national marketing agencies, book companies, > newspapers, graphic arts studios, etc. All of these > are potential markets for what we do. Ever see > illumination in a novel? I have, and someone got paid > to do it, why not us? I know of at least one young > lady who managed to support herself through college > illuminating poetry and selling it in various places. > I suppose it comes down to the same bottom line no > matter what the situation: you dictate your own level > of involvement. If the scribes in the society are > tired of working for free or are just looking to > branch out, well ladies and gentlement, the market's > just waiting. Go seize it. > > -phaedrus =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:41:01 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Belt Book/Girdle Book We seem to have gotten a bit off-topic without knowing it... (Not that that's bad, but I don't want people thinking that the instructions I have are for any sort of book or binding process). What I described earlier was a kind of book COVER for very normal books, which is not a permanent part of the book at all, though the different styles may be more or less effective depending on the way the book is bound. (One version requires that the cover boards fold fully back to slightly more than 180 degrees from their fully closed position, or that the sewing be completed after the book is tucked in place.) Most of the covers that were shown in the class I attended were quite obviously cloth covers, more or less loosely wrapped around the permanent binding of the book. The instructor also had some information and at least one picture that I recall (I don't have the handout in front of me at the moment) of a version that could be slipped through the belt to hang like a favor, with the book cover tied in place around the book with a cord. Enid Elizabeth Blatt wrote: > > At 8:52 AM -0100 6/24/02, Alienor wrote: > > > Lady Elianora Matthewes of AEthelmearc has done extensive research > > on both girdle books and belt books. (Perhaps she's vacationing at > > the moment, because I haven't noticed her popping in on recent > > discussions.) The girdle book is as described in earlier posts. > > The belt book (I'm not sure it's real name is known--if it had one) > > is a different animal. It hangs from the belt and in shape reminds > > me of the packs of color strips you get from Sherman Williams--long > > and skinny. At the class that Lady Elianora gave on this type of > > book, she told us that it was frequently used by doctors to carry > > around such things as urine charts or by traveling friars to carry > > around the calendar and lectionary. When we made them, we took a > > sheet of 8 1/2 by 11 paper and folded it in thirds lengthwise and > > then in half. At the top, where it was folded we notched the pages > > and then sewed it together, so that you could open the book and then > > open out the pages to 8 1/2 by 5 inch individual sheets. Sorry this > > isn't a great explanation. Hopefully Lady Elianora is teaching this > > class again at Pennsic???? > > > I missed the preceding posts, so I'm not sure if the original question > was a how-to or a descriptive inquiry (I've been having a fairly > exhaustive streak of ill fortune recently, which has included a > flooded apartment and a dead computer; due to both of these, I've not > been reading email much--I deleted a ton of messages rather than > download them to the new computer, and I've been AFK quite a bit as it > is, moving books out of my apartment so my landlord can re-carpet, > hopefully sooner than later, and shopping for new bookcases to replace > the ones which got damaged by the water). > > Annnnnyway, assuming a question of description and terminology, I'll > summarize what I know about these. Terminology can be confusing, > because there are basically two different types of books both referred > to as girdle books. One is the "stereotypical" girdle book (with the > big knot in a dangling length of cover-material); the other is, as > Alienor described above, characterized by folded pages (sometimes > called a girdle book, but sometimes called a belt book, which is how > I'll refer to it here). > > Of the former, visual documentation in paintings is not difficult to > come across; and there are about thirty surviving girdle books in > collections across the world. You can see a picture of one href="http://highway49.library.yale.edu/photonegatives/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002032763444&iid=39002032763444">here; > it's in Yale's Beinecke Library, and dates to the 15th century. > Generally, these are depicted being worn by monks, made out of leather > that hasn't been bejeweled or gilded. The binding style is practical; > of the surviving manuscripts, all but the one in the Beinecke > collection are devotional texts: something referred to on a daily > basis. The binding style, with the exception of the cover, is fairly > typical: a block of pages collected into gatherings and sewn over > cords laced into wooden boards. When hanging from the belt, the text > is upside-down; the tail extends from the bottom of the book. This > allows one to open and read the book without loosening it from the > girdle. Clasps might be single, as in the Beinecke example, or > double; they might hook onto the edge of the boards, or the front of > the board, which is the method used for the Beinecke manuscript. The > size of these books is seldom larger than about five inches--not much > larger than the palm of a hand. > > The second type, the belt book, is more compact than this in size when > closed. The primary characteristic is that the pages--which might be > as long as 13" or 14" in the largest example for which I have > details--are folded, several times. Some of these are made with > quires sewn together like a standard medieval book, the pages of which > are then folded again (these tend to have higher page counts); but the > style I have studied most closely is formed by stacking individual > sheets of paper and folding them: first in half towards the spine of > the book, then again into thirds or quarters. This turns a sheet of > paper that, unfolded, might measure 4 inches wide and 8 inches long, > into a book the width of two fingers and the thickness of a single > finger. You can see an image of an unfolded sheet href="http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/immi/rosenbach/rosenbachms1004-29fol8l.html">here > from the Rosenbach Museum; the crease at the top of the image is that > half-way horizontal fold. Because the sheets are stacked, there > aren't a lot of pages: 8 to 12 individual sheets or thereabouts. > > As with the girdle books, the text is written upside down so that the > pages may be unfolded and read without removing the book from one's > belt (from where it dangled by a thong, or loop of cord). The text of > surviving belt books--there are about twenty which still exist (dating > primarily from the 15th century)--is always professional in nature. > As with the Rosenbach example, the pocket books might contain medical > information and diagrams for doctors to take with them when visiting a > patient; others contain calendars used by priests to figure out feast > days and such. The covers on surviving examples of these are more > varied: leather, cloth, and decorated cloth (brocade, tablet-woven > cloth, I'm not yet sure which); the boards were stiff parchment (and > possibly wood; I haven't run into anything that conclusively indicates > the use of wood; it's just a likelihood, under certain > circumstances). No particular closures are noticeable on any of the > images I've seen of surviving examples; and I have not, unfortunately, > been able to find any paintings or such depicting them in use (not > unsurprisingly, given that these were most often used by > professionals, and not types of people typically given to appear in > paintings). These may have had a longer lifespan than the girdle > books--there is one early 17th century textual reference to the use of > books of folded pages with boards made from pasteboard. One of the > surviving belt books had text written by the person who owned it--so, > in some cases, the books may have been made by the person using it, or > written by them and then sent elsewhere for binding. > > I was trying to be brief, so I'll stop here; and as my handouts now > exist on a cd-rom that's in storage, I can't even dig up my > bibliography to offer. But if anyone would like more information, and > doesn't mind paper copies of older versions the handouts I have on > these, please get in touch with me to make arrangements. As of this > morning, I haven't packed my handout masters yet. Pennsic is, I'm > afraid, not in the picture for me this year--I've got a couple > unavoidable professional commitments which are going to oblige me to > be elsewhere. Wah! > > Elianora Mathewes =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:50:56 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: [scribes]: Paint Graininess A couple people have mentioned problems with graininess in their W&N reds... I've not experienced this myself... what reds are you working with?? I like to use their Spectrum Red for most French illuminations, as the shade is very close to the one used in manuscripts. I like to use their Cadmium Red Deep for rubication, and sometimes, in rare instances, I like to use Permanent Red. Now, I ran into graininess with their Cobalt Blue... nearly drove me nuts, until I switched to Cobalt Blue Hue... same color, no graininess. Now, the graininess I had with the Cobalt Blue was before I learned about putting a drop of gum arabic into my paint well... I may have to try it again to see if putting in the gum helps. I always do put it in for my reds... I wonder if that is why I don't seem to experience the graininess??? Hmmmm. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn (KHvS), OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:47:15 -0600 From: "Crystal Olsen" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Okay, really dumb question... what exactly is gum arabic, and what does it do? Jaquelinne =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:11:14 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Jaquelinne: No question on this list is EVER a dumb one!!! Get that into your head right now, hear??? Gum arabic is one of several binders that can be used to make pigments stick together on the page (on a canvas or panel, for that matter). Also used were glair (egg whites) and egg yolks. I keep thinking that there were more binders... Randy??? Help...... Gum arabic is made from grinding up the dried sap from a Persian Acacia tree until it is in powder form and then dissolving it in water. Gum Ammoniac is also from tree sap (not positive of type, though) but it is distilled rather than ground up. Gum Ammoniac is used mostly as a gilding base, but I think (again, Randy???) it might also be used as a binder for paints. Don't quote me on that part, though. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn (KHvS), OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Crystal Olsen" To: "Scribe's List" Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [scribes]: Paint Graininess > Okay, really dumb question... what exactly is gum arabic, and what does it do? > > Jaquelinne =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:19:14 -0400 From: "Laura Peskett" <2rozakii@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess I, too had not found any problems with W&N reds. Then I was working on a scroll today and as I was searching through my dry pots for a color, I realized that any reds that I had made up using alizarin were a bit grainy. But that was it. :-) Who knows, maybe I've gotten lucky. :-) Tzitzakion Barony Beyond the Mountain East Kingdom - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Schultz" A couple people have mentioned problems with graininess in their W&N reds... I've not experienced this myself... what reds are you working with?? I like to use their Spectrum Red for most French illuminations, as the shade is very close to the one used in manuscripts. I like to use their Cadmium Red Deep for rubication, and sometimes, in rare instances, I like to use Permanent Red. Now, I ran into graininess with their Cobalt Blue... nearly drove me nuts, until I switched to Cobalt Blue Hue... same color, no graininess. Now, the graininess I had with the Cobalt Blue was before I learned about putting a drop of gum arabic into my paint well... I may have to try it again to see if putting in the gum helps. I always do put it in for my reds... I wonder if that is why I don't seem to experience the graininess??? Hmmmm. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn (KHvS), OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:09:44 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: re: final price I wasn't in that exact position (thank the Lord) but I was once asked to replace a 'real' scroll done by another scribe, on the grounds that it didn't match his persona). I told him that he got one freeby by tradition, but wasn't going to get two when so many don't get a scroll at all, and that I would have to charge a commission. He didn't ask a price or ask me to do it, but seemed surprised when I told him he was the exception in getting a real scroll at all, so maybe he started to appreciate the rare gift he had received... If anyone asked me to replace one of my own, I would probably ask for it back (to join my portfolio/demo collection), decline to make another in any style what-so-ever, and pass the word to my fellow scribes. My attitiude is that I will supply them free so long as I can design it as I see fit, although I will take their interests into account, since I do want the recipient to like it. If they want something special, they have to commission it. I would happily barter but have rarely found anyone (seamstress, woodworker, smith) who considered my time worth as much as their own, even when I offered to pay for the materials. The closest I've gotten is a woman who offered to help me make myself a dress, as if I wanted a lesson... I wonder what she would have said if I had offered to help her make herself a scroll...?) enid Allen Freeman wrote: > > >Of course we would like to think everyone knows all > >this but they don't. There is nothing quite like > >visiting someone house and seeing a scroll you spend > >umpteen hours on hanging on the wall naked with only > >a thumbtack holding it up and the scroll is folded > >and mutilated. :( > > *scream* i hope this hasn't happened to you. I'm a > very new scribe so I have yet to actually see any of > my work hanging in someone's home, but I have to say > where I to find myself in the above situation it may > not be the scroll that was left folded & pinned to the > wall, that's horrific. > > -phaedrus. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:22:04 -0400 From: "Kara Westfall" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Introduction and question > Savoir Faire (The French School) gouache Just Does Not Rehydrate. I've seen this, but never thought to look at the label for ingredients-- I suspect it may actually be an acrylic. There are some acrylic paints that either call themselves gouache, or use the term in their description. I think they use "gouache" to mean "paint has a creamy consistency and dries to a matte finish" . Chiara =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:37:06 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: red as Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess - --part1_152.1004e432.2a4d25d2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 6:42:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meisterin@comteck.com writes: > > > A couple people have mentioned problems with graininess in their W&N > reds... > I've not experienced this myself... what reds are you working with?? I > like to > use their Spectrum Red for most French illuminations, as the shade is very > close > to the one used in manuscripts. I like to use their Cadmium Red Deep for > rubication, and sometimes, in rare instances, I like to use Permanent Red. > Now, > I ran into graininess with their Cobalt Blue... nearly drove me nuts, until > I > switched to Cobalt Blue Hue... same color, no graininess. > Would there by any chance be a web site somewhere with this information on problems with certain colors of paints. Reds have always been my big bugaboo also. I've read several scribal web sites but have never seen this problem listed on them. Of course I still have some sites to go, to read them all. But if some of the more experienced scribes had this info in a print or web form I would really like a copy of it. I thought I done something wrong to the paints. I had one scroll where the reds just refused to stay on the paper. They were streaky and blotchy and just ugly. The other colors had no problem. I didn't know if it was the paper, me or the paint. Tamara - --part1_152.1004e432.2a4d25d2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 6:42:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meisterin@comteck.com writes:




A couple people have mentioned problems with graininess in their W&N reds...
I've not experienced this myself... what reds are you working with??  I like to
use their Spectrum Red for most French illuminations, as the shade is very close
to the one used in manuscripts.  I like to use their Cadmium Red Deep for
rubication, and sometimes, in rare instances, I like to use Permanent Red.  Now,
I ran into graininess with their Cobalt Blue... nearly drove me nuts, until I
switched to Cobalt Blue Hue... same color, no graininess.




Would there by any chance be a web site somewhere with this information on problems with certain colors of paints. Reds have always been my big bugaboo also. I've read several scribal web sites but have never seen this problem listed on them. Of course I still have some sites to go, to read them all.

But if some of the more experienced scribes had this info in a print or web form I would really like a copy of it.

I thought I done something wrong to the paints.

I had one scroll where the reds just refused to stay on the paper. They were streaky and blotchy and just ugly. The other colors had no problem. I didn't know if it was the paper, me or the paint.


Tamara - --part1_152.1004e432.2a4d25d2_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:40:45 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess I have a real problem with my powdered alizarin crimson pigment being excessively grainy. What I've tried to do before using it is that once I put a wee bit in my palette, I then add the gum arabic and water that has had a tiny bit of oxgall introduced into it, then I take a thin glass mulling rod and stir like mad until it's not so grainy, but even then, when I paint it on a scroll, it's still a bit grainier than I would like. I suppose the best solution to this would be to pour it out on to a slab of marble and use a glass muller to mull it down really fine before I use it. Last time I used my powdered ultramarine pigment, it, too, turned out a bit grainy. I was disappointed that this happened and used my glass mulling rod to try to grind it down in my palette before painting with it, but then, if you will recall, this was the same stuff that I had a stability problem with a few months ago and came to all of you for help with. (remember the thread about pigment stability? That was when I had that problem with a scroll I was doing back in March!) What I guess I will just need to do is to get myself a good glass muller (since I have a good flat slab of marble given to me by a scribal friend), either that or a mortar and pestle to use exclusively for pigments. Frustrating problems, to say the least! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:38:50 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess - --part1_186.9deca99.2a4d263a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 6:48:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CrystalO@fairbankscapital.com writes: > > Okay, really dumb question... what exactly is gum arabic, and what does it > do? > > My question is, what is the difference between gum arabic and ox gall? What is each used for? Tamara - --part1_186.9deca99.2a4d263a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 6:48:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CrystalO@fairbankscapital.com writes:



Okay, really dumb question... what exactly is gum arabic, and what does it do?






My question is, what is the difference between gum arabic and ox gall?
What is each used for?


Tamara - --part1_186.9deca99.2a4d263a_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:41:38 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess - --part1_4b.1f6095a6.2a4d26e2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 7:20:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 2rozakii@attbi.com writes: > > I, too had not found any problems with W&N reds. Then I was working on a > scroll today and as I was searching through my dry pots for a color, I > realized that any reds that I had made up using alizarin were a bit grainy. > But that was it. :-) Who knows, maybe I've gotten lucky. :-) > > Tzitzakion > Barony Beyond the Mountain > East Kingdom > Would the heat and humidity in different place make a difference? Tamara Trimaris where it is very hot and damp most the time. We are not called the "Swamp Lords" for nothing . :) - --part1_4b.1f6095a6.2a4d26e2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 7:20:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 2rozakii@attbi.com writes:



I, too had not found any problems with W&N reds.  Then I was working on a
scroll today and as I was searching through my dry pots for a color, I
realized that any reds that I had made up using alizarin were a bit grainy.
But that was it.  :-)  Who knows, maybe I've gotten lucky. :-)

Tzitzakion
Barony Beyond the Mountain
East Kingdom




Would the heat and humidity in different place make a difference?

Tamara
Trimaris where it is very hot and damp most the time.
We are not called the "Swamp Lords" for nothing  .    :)


 - --part1_4b.1f6095a6.2a4d26e2_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:03:53 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Paint Graininess Tamara queries: My question is, what is the difference between gum arabic and ox gall? What is each used for? - ---------------------------------------- Gum arabic is a binding agent. It is made from ther resin from the gum acacia tree. It basically helps the paint to stick to the page. Oxgall is a wetting agent. I understand it's one of the things that they use in paper marbling. I add one or two drops to my paint wash water (the stuff you clean your brushes with, and make sure you always use distilled water, not tap water!), then add that water, via the brush, to the powdered pigment and gum arabic mixture. This will make your pigment go on very smooth and easy. Oxgall is made from the bile fluid from the gall bladder of an ox. I bought my bottle of it kind of by accident. I happen to live a half block from a very good art store (Kent State University has a pretty good art department, and I live across the street from the University), and one day I was over at the art store buying some scribey stuff and when I was casually perusing the other stuff that the store had, I saw this section of stuff like linseed oil, oxgall, gum arabic and other paint needs. Curiosity being one of my attributes, I picked up the bottle of oxgall, and having no idea whatsoever what it was or what it was used for (but hey, it sure sounded Mediaeval!), I bought it and took it home. Boy, am I ever glad I did! I hope that answers your question, Tamara! Now here's my question to all of you: Can anyone point me to a good source to document the use of Oxgall in period? Thanks! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #14 ****************************