From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #12 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, June 26 2002 Volume 08 : Number 012 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Post-Court display (was: stipend) Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Honorarium (was RE: [scribes]: stipend) [scribes]: database? was: signing scrolls Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls [scribes]: expectations [scribes]: Re: Final price [scribes]: Scribal Mark Database Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls [scribes]: Introduction and question RE: [scribes]: signing scrolls Re: [scribes]: Introduction and question [scribes]: Need Guinea-Pigs for ScribalArts.org free email accounts Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price [scribes]: Re: Final price ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:23:17 -0400 From: Lucianadi@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Post-Court display (was: stipend) Greetings! We present original scrolls at court at Coronations, 12th Night, and Festival of the Rose (an arts event in honor of the Queen). Although our Crowns are generally very supportive and show the scrolls to the populace, they are too far away to really see - and then they go away forever. We've just recently started displaying them for the day after the court presentation so the populace has a chance to view them up close. They are each mounted in a "folio" which allows them to be displayed vertically, like a standing open book. Folios are made from black matte board and hinged with gaffers tape. We note the illuminator's and calligrapher's names on a little recognition card in the bottom corner of each folio. The award reccipients pick up their scrolls at the end of the day, and may use the folios for safe transport. The empty folios are returned to the Kingdom College of Scribes at a later date to be used again. This has been very popular. In Service, Luciana Scribe Armarius Caidis =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:48:05 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price > Not to be fussy, but an earlier post from me on this topic must have been > missed . When was the last time you asked the Queen or Princess or King, > etc. who made their garb? Who do you think made the Great Cloaks for your > royalty? From where do you think the Thrones for your kingdom come? Do > you think that your current King made them? Do you think that the people > who made these things presented a bill or were given funds for these > things? In some instances, yes, they were; however, in *many* more > instances, they were not, as the work was a labor of love for the > craftsperson's Crown and Kingdom. Hmm, perhaps I need to clarify myself a bit.............what I was basically trying to say is that we are, in a sense, *expected* to use our craft to serve, thereby creating a kind of dichotomy between being artisans and servants. A costumer, a woodworker or anyone else that creates regalia isn't expected to do so, they do so more out of wanting to do something for the Crown and they are thereby given more deference as true artisans compared to us. No one writes them a letter or calls them and says, Oh, by the way, we need you to make crowns, thrones, cloaks, garb, banners, sceptres, etc. and not charge one penny to do so. People make those things because they want to. And so do we, but there isn't the expectation that if you're a costumer, a woodworker or whatever, that you will use your craft to make things for the Crown. On the other hand, scribes (those who actively create scrolls) are *expected* to use their talents (and materials and time), pro bono, for the good of the Kingdom and the Crown. It's kind of the nature of the beast, as they say. A costumer, a woodworker, a leatherworker, an armourer or whatever could just as well become a merchant and use their ability to sell their work. We can't really do that, at least not in the SCA. If we started charging money for our scrolls, there would be quite the hue and cry about it. Does that make sense? I think if people knew the market value of what we make, they'd certainly think twice about throwing that scroll in their feast gear basket or in the armour bag or whatever. I am quite sure we all have our share of "scroll horror stories" (I sure do!) about things that happened to our work when the recipient got it (I had one, for example, fold up the scroll I made and stash it in his pouch!!!! Oh, you talk about being speechless with rage!!!!). Sometimes I am tempted to put a price value on the back of scrolls I have done, but having no idea what I would charge for labour, well, needless to say, I don't do that. But I wonder if people would think twice about defiling our work if we did something like that. It's a thought..................... ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:37:18 EDT From: BessdeNevell@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price - --part1_158.ffc0b1d.2a4b9c1e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/26/2002 5:31:02 PM Central Daylight Time, sburnell@raex.com writes: > No one writes them a letter or calls them and says, Oh, by the way, we > need you to make crowns, thrones, cloaks, garb, banners, sceptres, etc. and > not charge one penny to do so. I dunno about that sis, I seem to remember a call going out not too long ago for embroiderers for a regalia project. Some sort of cloak I think. Granted, they had a little more time to complete the project than us scribes usually get. But, they do still get asked to work, for free even. Cheers! ~Bess - --part1_158.ffc0b1d.2a4b9c1e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/26/2002 5:31:02 PM Central Daylight Time, sburnell@raex.com writes:


No one writes them a letter or calls them and says, Oh, by the way, we
need you to make crowns, thrones, cloaks, garb, banners, sceptres, etc. and
not charge one penny to do so.



I dunno about that sis, I seem to remember a call going out not too long ago for embroiderers for a regalia project.   Some sort of cloak I think.  Granted, they had a little more time to complete the project than us scribes usually get.  But, they do still get asked to work, for free even.

Cheers!

~Bess - --part1_158.ffc0b1d.2a4b9c1e_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:04:01 -0400 From: "Linda Pancrazio" Subject: Honorarium (was RE: [scribes]: stipend) Minor corrections. :) We have two separate funds - my part of the policy isn't quite in place for that so I havne't talked about it much yet. The fund Countess Brigit mentioned pays a $25 dollar honorarium for each patent level scroll requested by the Crown to be produced for court. That fund is topped off at $250 yearly and honoraria are paid on a first-come first-served basis (so we could run out if we get more than 10 requests for honoraria - but we don't get to spend the leftovers). This honorarium is intended as an attempt to partially reimburse for materials - it is not in any way intended to imply anything about the actual value of the scroll or to "pay" a scribe for their time and gift. (so please quit calling it a "stipend" - 'kay? ) The other fund is supported completly by donations - started with donations made to the first fund before we got the leftover thing ironed out. I will use that fund to make a yearly or so purchase of *stuff* to distribute amongst the college. :) Donated scribey shoppin' money - weeee! Yours, Genevieve Atlantian Signet > Atlantia has entered into law that a stipend will be paid for Peerage > scrolls requested by the Crown at $25 per scroll up to $250 per reign. If > the $250 is not utilized entirely for reimbursements then the rest (per > reign) is used to purchase materials for up and coming scribes and > scriptoriums. This is new here and has greatly helped to raise awareness. > > > > Countess Brigit > http://scribe.atlantia.sca.org/gallery/Brigit/index.html > "Honor servire est" =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:38:03 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: database? was: signing scrolls - --part1_d2.1a246d04.2a4baa5b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/26/02 5:34:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 dpotucek@wiktel.com writes: >=20 > Sorry Eva, didn't mean to direct this just to you. Meant for it to be for= =20 > all on the board. > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > The only problem I have with having a database is how do you qualify using= =20 > the mark time wise. I am very new to the scribal arts in the SCA, heck=20 > I've only been in the SCA 7 months, but I have used a mark for my poetry=20 > and drawings since high school 18+ yrs. Having a data base would be nice=20 > but I will not change my mark now. I will do as stated and put my name on= =20 > the back besides. > =20 > Langry Boucl=E9s des Cheveux > "Dying is easy, it's what you do while living that counts." >=20 Personally I don't think anyone should change their mark at all. I would jus= t=20 like to see what other people are using, so if I should see one of your=20 scrolls I will know who did it.=20 An artist's mark is just that something, that means something to each=20 individual artist. You can't tell an artist to "chose something else to mea= n=20 something to you." It doesn't matter if 10 people are using dragonflies or whatever. They will=20 not be drawn or look the same.=20 Is there an area in the castle.org site for files? Like on Yahoo? Each perso= n=20 could just upload a copy of their mark there. Of course, using your name on=20 the photo/scan of the mark. Tamara - --part1_d2.1a246d04.2a4baa5b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 6/26/02 5= :34:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dpotucek@wiktel.com writes:



Sorry Eva, didn't mean to direct this just to you.  Meant for it to be=20= for all on the board.




The only problem I have with= having a database is how do you qualify using the mark time wise.  I a= m very new to the scribal arts in the SCA, heck I've only been in the SCA 7=20= months, but I have used a mark for my poetry and drawings since high school=20= 18+ yrs.  Having a data base would be nice but I will not change my mar= k now.  I will do as stated and put my name on the back besides.=

Langry Boucl=E9s des Cheveux=
"Dying is easy, it's what you do while living that counts."





Personally I don't think anyone should change their mark at all. I would jus= t like to see what other people are using, so if I should see one of your sc= rolls I will know who did it.

An artist's mark is just that something, that means something to each indivi= dual artist.  You can't tell an artist to "chose something else to mean= something to you."

It doesn't matter if 10 people are using dragonflies or whatever. They will=20= not be drawn or look the same.

Is there an area in the castle.org site for files? Like on Yahoo? Each perso= n could just upload a copy of their mark there. Of course, using your name o= n the photo/scan of the mark.


Tamara - --part1_d2.1a246d04.2a4baa5b_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:48:41 +0930 From: "Kat" Subject: Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls Unofficial was what I was thinking of ....... the website? a good idea, so we can check (and anyone) easily also. Katerina Innilgard > Please, no more paperwork. An unofficial registry on the website is good > enough. It would be, I think, a very useful thing. > > Smiles, > Despina > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:54:38 +0930 From: "Kat" Subject: Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls I am resending this, as I believe it went privately by mistake. I usually have some little thing purple on the scroll as my 'signature thing' but also will sign the scroll with my initials KdB, in flouished Italic, or Katerina me Fecit for earlier scrolls. I am still working on a little pic which is hard to decide on, so the initials it will most likely remain. On the back I put my SCA name, date and what was used in making the scroll. Katerina Innilgard - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Peskett" <2rozakii@attbi.com> To: "Scribes@Castle. Org" Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 12:24 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls > My maker's mark is a tiny Tz, in the bottom left-hand corner of the > illumination. And I usually sign the back of the scroll. It's been > interesting to see what everyone uses to "sign" their scrolls. I'd love to > see a listing of what everyone uses. :-) > > Tzitzakion > > > I've heard them called "maker's marks" as well. > > > > Mine is a small red cross-crosslet, though I've only used it on a couple > of > > my scrolls so far. > > > > Christopher > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:03:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Allen Freeman Subject: [scribes]: expectations what I was basically trying to say is that we are, in a sense, *expected* to use our craft to serve, thereby creating a kind of dichotomy between being artisans and servants. A costumer, a woodworker or anyone else that creates regalia isn't expected to do so, they do so more out of wanting to do something for the Crown and they are thereby given more deference as true artisans compared to us. No one writes them a letter or calls them and says, Oh, by the way, we need you to make crowns, thrones, cloaks, garb, banners, sceptres, etc. and not charge one penny to do so. People make those >things because they >want >to. And so do we, but there isn't the expectation >that if you're a >costumer, >a woodworker or whatever, that you will use your >craft to make things >for >the Crown. On the other hand, scribes (those who >actively create >scrolls) >are *expected* to use their talents (and materials >and time), pro bono, >for >the good of the Kingdom and the Crown. I think there's another way to look at this situation. People don't expect to be charged for something that's being performed as a service to the kingdom. that seems reasonable to me. I'd all but fall out of my armor if the MoL at the next tourney I compete in where to hand me an invoice at the end of the day for his/her services, likewise with the kitchen staff and the people working troll. it's all the same thing really, service. Otherwise, what's the point? - -phaedrus __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 22:59:08 -0400 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Final price > ........what I was basically trying to say is that we are, in a sense, > *expected* to use our craft to serve, thereby creating a kind of > dichotomy between being artisans and servants. Good Lady Saradwen, Indeed....and that dichotomy between "servant" and "artisan" is a -false- dichotomy. "Servant" and "Artisan" are not mutually exclusive terms. Any artisan may choose to serve the Crown, regardless of which craft he practices. I won't stop him...and neither will you. :-) The problem lies in the fact that SCA Scribes are -not- servants. They are serfs. What's the difference? A servant has the right to work for whomever he chooses; and he has every reason to expect payment. A serf has no right to market his goods or services. He works without cost, because he is the property of the Crown. No other group of artisans in the Society is -required- to give away -any- (certainly not -all-) of their work. Scribes are alone in that dubious privilege. (Most artisans -do- give away some of their work to the Crown. This is right, proper, noble and honourable!) A gift which is freely bestowed is also greatly prized; because everyone knows the value of that gift. Who could fail to recognize the cost of the work involved in carving the King's throne? (We have all purchased furniture!) Who could fail to appreciate the time and artistry which were required to sew the Queen's gown? (We have all paid for fine clothing!) Very few people in the Society have ever paid for a hand written leaf. They have never been -asked- to pay for such work (..though most of them would gladly drop $7.95 for a pulp paperback.) Is it any wonder, then, that the Scribal Arts are held in low esteem? As a general rule, Human Beings value things for which they pay money. They also value things which are expensive - but which they cannot afford. They -don't- value things which have no (perceived) financial value. This may be a hard and crass fact of life; but it is also true - almost without exception. Thus, the eight dollar romance novel is likely to be treated with more care than a hand written AoA. The owner of the paperback must count the cost of replacing it. The recipient of a scroll, who has invested nothing in the work, has nothing to lose by damaging it. (Yes, I am exaggerating. Most SCAdians do indeed value their AoA scrolls. But I trust that you see my point.) Sally, the people who appreciate your scrolls are -always- those who understand how much work you put into creating them. Do you suppose that the Noble (and I use the term in its most general sense) who rolled up your work and stuffed it in his pouch would have done such a thing - if he had paid $1,000.00 for your time? I'll bet he wouldn't have done it if he had paid $20.00 for your time! You understood his loss. He didn't have a clue... A paid artisan whose work is damaged by a careless patron may well be shocked; but she will not be -enraged-. The customer has paid a price for his thoughtless action. The artisan has been compensated for her time. No injustice is perceived by either party. I have never heard a complaint from an artisan who -chose- to donate his or her time to the Crown. Have you? I have heard myriad complaints from overworked, unpaid (and largely unappreciated) Scribes. This is a sad state of affairs, when it exists within a subculture which places such high value on Nobility, Honour and Chivalry. Nobility requires that artisans be accorded respect for their work. Honour requires that artisans be paid (or at least offered) a just wage. Chivalry requires that a valuable gift be treated with care and appreciation. With my highest regards, Peter Peter Gwer Rychen von Bern Lapidary and Scribal Arts Barony of The Rhyderrich Hael Kingdom of Aethelmearc (Buffalo, New York, USA) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:08:49 -0300 From: "Rick Gaigneur" Subject: [scribes]: Scribal Mark Database Since several people have suggested a database of scribal marks as used in the SCA, and a few suggestions have been made as to where to host them, let it be known that I will happily put up a page of scribal marks! Any who would like to participate, simply send to my e-mail address gaigneur@fundy.net ) as much of the following information as possible: a) SCA name of scribe b) local group and kingdom c) description of scribal mark (design, location, etc.), and/or d) digital image of said mark (most graphic formats are OK) e) when first used (if you can recall) f) your e-mail address or other contact info Images can be in most any format - between the half dozen or so digital imaging programs I have here, I should be able to find an import filter for it. If not, I'll contact you and let you know. A URL of a web site where such an image could be found would be acceptable as well. THIS IS IN NO WAY AN ATTEMPT TO REGISTER OR CONTROL THE USE OF SUCH MARKS IN THE SCA!!! This will be a fun little page to let us see what others are doing by way of identifying their work. The marks need not be specifically makers marks in the sense that jewellers and smiths make use of them. It could just as easily be a motif, design element, pattern, etc. which you feel uniquely identifies "you". I would also appreciate any information anyone might have on the presence or use of such marks in period works. Might as well make the site educational as well. I will post an URL as soon as I have some examples to put up. It will most likely be found on the www.northernshores.org web site (which has lots of server space free). A link will be available from the Northern Shores index page. Feel free to distribute this message as you will. In service, Aetheric Master Ætheric Lindberende, OL,OP,CSC,CM,QHD,etc. (Rick Gaigneur) gaigneur@fundy.net http://www.ricks-place.ca =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:23:10 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls > My maker's mark is a tiny Tz, in the bottom left-hand corner of the > illumination. And I usually sign the back of the scroll. It's been > interesting to see what everyone uses to "sign" their scrolls. I'd love to > see a listing of what everyone uses. :-) For years, I used to pen a teeny tiny triquetra (think a three cornered Celtic knot, the primary charge on my arms) someplace on the scrolls I did. Haven't done that in a number of years, but heck, this discussion kinda makes me want to resume that tradition! Gee, maybe I'll do that on my next scroll, due out next week, for an event that, rather unfortunately, I will not be able to attend due to work. :-( I hate missing a good Royal court, especially with our current Royalty, who are just a hoot during courts. They are quite a wonderful set of Royals! (Valharic and Alys, TRM's of the Midrealm). I also like being anywhere that one of my scrolls is being given. And this one coming up is for someone I know, too! (well, anymore it's a rarity that I don't actually know the award recipient, unless they live out in Timbuktu!) ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 03:47:43 +0000 From: "Costanca Daguiar" Subject: [scribes]: Introduction and question Greetings! My name is Costanca Daguiar, usually from the Barony of Black Diamond in Atlantia - but for the summer I'm out in Barony of Western Seas, Caid. I've been doing illumination and calligraphy for about a year and a half now. Of the two scrolls that I've completed, one was 1300's from the Macejowski Bible (I know that because that's the one I just completed!), and the other was some other awfully detailed picture and border combination - awfully detailed for really learning how to paint and draw with it. My main interest would be learning more of the turn of the 16th century stuff - especially the handwriting - but I'll take what I get for now. And does anyone have any suggestions on how to not get your paints to dry out as quickly when you're painting? I'm using gauche, and I like the way that it looks, but I usually end up mixing a lot more than what I need (okay, the pictures are small in addition to being detailed) just so that it will hopefully still be wet by the time that I get to another part. ~ Costanca Daguiar Barony of Black Diamond, Atlantia mka Jennifer Beard Blacksburg, VA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:49:30 -0700 From: "Kenneth A. Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: signing scrolls This would be very easy to do on ScribalArts.org, if there is interest. - -----Original Message----- From: Rick Gaigneur [mailto:gaigneur@fundy.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:16 AM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: signing scrolls I, too, have always marked my scrolls, on the front, with a symbol, as well as including name and contact info on the backs. I use a small stylized "ae", which I've been told looks like a bit like a dagger, or perhaps a little stick-figure man, usually in the bottom right corner of the illumination. I can't remember when I first used it, or on what, but it does appear on the earliest SCA award scroll I produced ( http://www.ricks-place.ca/aoa1.htm ), so its been around for a while. I agree - a registry of scribal makers-marks would be great fun. Not in any attempt to regulate them, but certainly for the fun of seeing what other people use, as well as to serve as a resource, example, and inspiration for new scribes. Aetheric Master Aetheric Lindeberende, Shire of Lyndhaven, East Kingdom http://www.ricks-place.ca gaigneur@fundy.net =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:11:40 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Introduction and question Greetings, back, Costanca. Don't worry about your gouaches drying out... they will reconstitute with more water. If they evaporate a bit while you are working, add another drop of water. You only have to be sure you don't reconstitute them with too much water, so that the paint becomes more transparent than what you started out with. this was also done in period. Might I suggest that you also add just one drop of gum arabic to your paint the first time you mix it up in your paint well (or whatever you use to hold your paints). So, don't throw it out or worry about it drying up... even if hard as a rock, it will come back to paint quality with water. And, welcome to the list. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn (KHvS), OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:03:26 -0700 From: "Kenneth A. Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: Need Guinea-Pigs for ScribalArts.org free email accounts So, I believe that I have most of the bugs worked out of the e-mail system, at least enough that I believe that I can start offering a few email-only accounts to scribes interested in having a ScribalArts.org email address. My email server supports all of the common mail delivery protocols including IMAP and POP3. I also host a web-service which allows you to access your account from the WWW from any machine that is connected. I.E. If you have web access at work, you can access your scribalarts.org email. Or from the coffee shop, or from 33,000 ft in an airliner. :-) If you are interested in a free email account, please respond. I am interested in testing on a small group of web-savvy people first, so that I can trouble-shoot my processes, etc. If you consider yourself web savvy, and would like to have an email address like GeorgeTheScribe@ScribalArts.org , let me know! Cystennin. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:09:23 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price > Indeed....and that dichotomy between "servant" and "artisan" is a -false- > dichotomy. "Servant" and "Artisan" are not mutually exclusive terms. > Any artisan may choose to serve the Crown, regardless of which craft he > practices. I won't stop him...and neither will you. :-) Ah, OK, I see where you are basically coming from. I guess the perspective I was coming at it from was that there are basically three tracks that many of us work from, the service track, the martial track and the A&S track, basically mirroring the three Peerages. The point I guess I was attempting to make was that I was wondering whether scribes do their craft to propagate their art or as a way to serve their Crown and Kingdom, or both? Since we are largely unpaid, most of us are, in effect, "servants", i.e. expected to use our craft, if we so choose, to serve the Crown. And as you say, anyone can use their craft to serve, regardless of what it is. But, an example I give is that recently new thrones were made for the King and Queen of the Middle. The artisan who crafted them charged $12,000 for them. Yes, you saw that right. $12,000. That's $6,000 each. He got paid for his work out of Kingdom funds. I grant you, they are astonishing pieces of craftsmanship and beautiful artistry. I know the tools and materials were quite costly. I need to stress here that I am NOT complaining. Not in the slightest. I do what I do out of the love of both service and love of my art. I'll continue doing what I do because I just love it, I love the reactions to my work, I pray for the safe journey of each of my scrolls, and I breathe a sigh of relief if I get a nice note from the recipients telling me that they had it nicely framed and that it's hanging in a place of honour in their homes. Still, at times when I hear that certain Kingdoms renumerate their scribes for materials, a wee tinge of envy creeps in. Stuff's gotten more expensive since I started this, but it's not near to breaking me financially. I haven't replaced any pens or brushes in a goodly while now, I've had to buy more paper and ink recently, not a princely sum of money, my paints are nearly used up and will need replacement soon, and they can, depending on what you buy and from whom, get a tad expensive. But bargain hunter me, I am always hunting for the best price on everything. > I have never heard a complaint from an artisan who -chose- to donate > his or her time to the Crown. Have you? Nope. Never in my experience. > I have heard myriad complaints from overworked, unpaid (and largely > unappreciated) Scribes. This is a sad state of affairs, when it exists > within a subculture which places such high value on Nobility, Honour and > Chivalry. Well, my main point of contention for a goodly while now has been lead time, lead time, lead time. You can't expect a scribe to create beautiful work AND have a Real Life(tm) on short notice. It means putting your Real Life(tm) on the back burner, something many of us cannot do. I can't tell you how many times I've had to do that, but I think it all depends on who the currently sitting Royalty is and how they perceive scribes. Our current Monarchs hold scribes in quite high esteem, as have many of our recent Crowned Heads. So we've come a long way in the respect we've gained, but there's still room for improvement! Given time and greater awareness of what we do, I think things can only get better. It's up to us, the Scribes of the Knowne World, to let people know what we do, how long it takes us to do it, and to let them know its value, since they get our work for free. If we don't start doing something to better the awareness of value, then we have only ourselves to blame if people do stuff like scrunch up one of our scrolls into their pouch without realising what it is worth. My 2 bezants.................. ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:24:12 -0400 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Final price Sally Burnell wrote: > Ah, OK, I see where you are basically coming from. I guess the perspective I > was coming at it from was that there are basically three tracks that many of > us work from, the service track, the martial track and the A&S track, > basically mirroring the three Peerages. The point I guess I was attempting > to make was that I was wondering whether scribes do their craft to propagate > their art or as a way to serve their Crown and Kingdom, or both? Since we > are largely unpaid, most of us are, in effect, "servants", i.e. expected to > use our craft, if we so choose, to serve the Crown. And as you say, anyone > can use their craft to serve, regardless of what it is. Good Lady, I'm beginning to suspect that you and I agree on this topic. Scribing -is- an Art; and therefore Scribes can surely lay claim to the A&S track. Scribes also offer their services for free, in the production of award scrolls - which places much scribal work within the Service track. I don't expect the latter to change (nor would I want to see it change!) Most of our peers cannot afford to pay the true value of a Scroll. An original AoA Scroll is the most costly "recreated" artifact that most of us will ever own. I just wish that more folks understood the cost (in time, sweat, practice, materials and scholarship) of that little piece of paper. :-) I know of no better way to build such understanding than through the creation (and sale) of Period style manuscripts. I would save my allowance, give up chewing gum, beg on the street corner and barter like a fiend in order to afford a 20 page Book of Hours! (Tell me I'm the only one, and I'll quietly retire to the corner of the room...) > But, an example I give is that recently new thrones were made for the King > and Queen of the Middle. The artisan who crafted them charged $12,000 for > them. Yes, you saw that right. $12,000. That's $6,000 each. He got paid for > his work out of Kingdom funds. I grant you, they are astonishing pieces of > craftsmanship and beautiful artistry. I know the tools and materials were > quite costly. I'm not at all surprised by the cost; and I applaud the Middle Kingdom's exchequer for having the wisdom to open the purse strings! :-) To quote a late Period source, "...the labourer is worthy of his hire." > I'll continue doing what I do because I just love it, I love the reactions > to my work, I pray for the safe journey of each of my scrolls, and I breathe > a sigh of relief if I get a nice note from the recipients telling me that > they had it nicely framed and that it's hanging in a place of honour in their > homes. A note like that should be the standard, grateful, honourable response to any gift! :-) (While I agree that the -Award- is a gift from the Crown, I must contend that the -Scroll- is a gift from the Scribe. To say otherwise demeans the value of the artist's work - which is precisely what we all wish to avoid. Given a case...were there such a case...where the Crown or Kingdom had -paid- for the Scroll, I would hold a -very- different opinion.) > Still, at times when I hear that certain Kingdoms renumerate their scribes > for materials, a wee tinge of envy creeps in. Stuff's gotten more expensive > since I started this, but it's not near to breaking me financially. I > haven't replaced any pens or brushes in a goodly while now, I've had to buy > more paper and ink recently, not a princely sum of money, my paints are > nearly used up and will need replacement soon, and they can, depending on > what you buy and from whom, get a tad expensive. But bargain hunter me, I am > always hunting for the best price on everything. There -is- a silver lining! I've yet to meet a Scribe who's not adept in the art of bartering for supplies. > > I have never heard a complaint from an artisan who -chose- to donate > > his or her time to the Crown. Have you? > > Nope. Never in my experience. > > > I have heard myriad complaints from overworked, unpaid (and largely > > unappreciated) Scribes. This is a sad state of affairs, when it exists > > within a subculture which places such high value on Nobility, Honour and > > Chivalry. > > Well, my main point of contention for a goodly while now has been lead time, > lead time, lead time. You can't expect a scribe to create beautiful work AND > have a Real Life(tm) on short notice. It means putting your Real Life(tm) on > the back burner, something many of us cannot do. ...all of which comes back to the intertwined issues of Value and Respect. I fear that the absence of perceived value undermines the self-respect of some very talented Scribes. We (not just you and I) need to change that state of affairs. > I can't tell you how many times I've had to do that, but I think it all > depends on who the currently sitting Royalty is and how they perceive > scribes. Our current Monarchs hold scribes in quite high esteem, as have > many of our recent Crowned Heads. So we've come a long way in the respect > we've gained, but there's still room for improvement! Here in the Rhyderrich Hael, we've been blessed with a Baron and Baroness who are both Scribes! Maybe the Pen -is- mightier than the Sword? > Given time and greater awareness of what we do, I think things can only get > better. It's up to us, the Scribes of the Knowne World, to let people know > what we do, how long it takes us to do it, and to let them know its value, > since they get our work for free. If we don't start doing something to > better the awareness of value, then we have only ourselves to blame if > people do stuff like scrunch up one of our scrolls into their pouch without > realising what it is worth. Huzzah! > My 2 bezants.................. .......and a bargain at that price. I'll give you two pfennigs for your pair of bezants. :-) Peace & Friendship, Peter =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #12 ****************************