From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #7 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, June 24 2002 Volume 08 : Number 007 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price Re: [scribes]: instruction for framing was Re: Final price [scribes]: Comfort grip paint brushes [scribes]: re: final price [scribes]: Matting & Framing Re: [scribes]: Matting & Framing RE: [scribes]: Matting & Framing [scribes]: Barter & Time [scribes]: illuminated music sheets [scribes]: treaty images Re: [scribes]: Barter & Time Re: [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price Re: [scribes]: Ink from irises? Re: [scribes]: Announcing www.ScribalArts.org ! Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:34:58 EDT From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price - --part1_13f.10563f47.2a48dc72_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Ranthulf's assessment of the pricing for commissioned work, with one small caveat. If the artist is a skilled craftsperson with fine art training & works quickly & precisely then the per hour rate could be up to $50 or even $75/hour. It is not unheard of for master calligraphers & painters to get significantly more than that. Though I don't know too many personally who earn that kind of cash. As was so eloquently pointed out it takes a serious collector to give such work it's deserved value & be willing to pay for it. For the novice or untrained scribe then $10/hour is probably not too bad. Though you need to keep in mind how much time is spent in learning and decide if that should be charged for. In my case I tend to only charge for the time I actually spend on a final piece, not on practice work. (This includes the work I have done in non SCA or scribal work. My degree is in jewelry/metalworking.) But if you are commissioned to work in a style that you are unaccustomed to it may be in your best interest to be upfront with the client and tell them. You can charge them for the extra hours that it will take to learn the new calligraphic hand, but it would be honorable to advise them of that in advance. I look at all of the time I spend making award scrolls as a chance to experiment with the styles I like, hopefully the recipients will like them as well. I do mostly backlogs, so I rarely have any deadlines. Since I have the luxury no deadlines I have the time to experiment & time to enjoy expressing myself. Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_13f.10563f47.2a48dc72_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Ranthulf's assessment of the pricing for commissioned work, with one small caveat.

If the artist is a skilled craftsperson with fine art training & works quickly & precisely then the per hour rate could be up to $50 or even $75/hour.  It is not unheard of for master calligraphers & painters to get significantly more than that.  Though I don't know too many personally who earn that kind of cash.  As was so eloquently pointed out it takes a serious collector to give such work it's deserved value & be willing to pay for it.

For the novice or untrained scribe then $10/hour is probably not too bad.  Though you need to keep in mind how much time is spent in learning and decide if that should be charged for. 

In my case I tend to only charge for the time I actually spend on a final piece, not on practice work.  (This includes the work I have done in non SCA or scribal work.  My degree is in jewelry/metalworking.)  But if you are commissioned to work in a style that you are unaccustomed to it may be in your best interest to be upfront with the client and tell them.  You can charge them for the extra hours that it will take to learn the new calligraphic hand, but it would be honorable to advise them of that in advance.

I look at all of the time I spend making award scrolls as a chance to experiment with the styles I like, hopefully the recipients will like them as well.  I do mostly backlogs, so I rarely have any deadlines.  Since I have the luxury no deadlines I have the time to experiment & time to enjoy expressing myself.

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
 - --part1_13f.10563f47.2a48dc72_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:30:07 -0700 From: Shelly Taranoff Subject: Re: [scribes]: instruction for framing was Re: Final price - --=====================_24570795==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:10 PM 6/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 6/24/02 11:29:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >melaena1@telusplanet.net writes: > > >> >>Here is a contentious issue: Who feels that the scribe should have some >>sort of control over the matting and framing process? I would never >>knowingly make a scroll for someone who had no intention of putting it on a >>wall ever. I've seen this happen a lot and it really steams me. Forty >>hours for a trinket that sits in a drawer. Argh! I would love to be able >>to say to the recipient: Okay, I will do you a scroll as long as you >>realize that you are honour-bound to get it hung in an appropriate manner! >>That will probably never happen but it's a nice fantasy. When I take on >>commissions for people I try to remember if they have scrolls hanging up in >>their house already. If they do then I generally say yes. > > > > >I have long thought that with every scroll given out in court, someone >from the scribes guild should be standing to one side and also hand out an >instruction sheet on the value of the art work (just one paragraph on the >time and talent that goes into scrolls) and the proper manner for framing >and displaying it. > >"Congratulation on your award and here is the instructions for caring for >your new work of art" > > > > >Tamara Alexandria and I do just this. We provide some research notes so that the recipient can look at what we based the scroll on and then we tell them how many hours went into each part of their scroll and what materials were used and how to take care of it and the best way to frame it. We have gotten some very positive feedback on this from people. Lady Tegan of Conwy Dragons Mist Pale Horse mka Shelly Taranoff Canby, Oregon - --=====================_24570795==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 03:10 PM 6/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
In a message dated 6/24/02 11:29:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, melaena1@telusplanet.net writes:



Here is a contentious issue:  Who feels that the scribe should have some
sort of control over the matting and framing process?  I would never
knowingly make a scroll for someone who had no intention of putting it on a
wall ever.  I've seen this happen a lot and it really steams me.  Forty
hours for a trinket that sits in a drawer.  Argh!  I would love to be able
to say to the recipient:  Okay, I will do you a scroll as long as you
realize that you are honour-bound to get it hung in an appropriate manner!
That will probably never happen but it's a nice fantasy.  When I take on
commissions for people I try to remember if they have scrolls hanging up in
their house already.  If they do then I generally say yes.




I have long thought that with every scroll given out in court, someone from the scribes guild should be standing to one side and also hand out an instruction sheet on the value of the art work  (just one paragraph on the time and talent that goes into scrolls) and the proper manner for framing and displaying it.

"Congratulation on your award and here is the instructions for caring for your new work of art"

<snip>


Tamara

Alexandria and I do just this. We provide some research notes so that the recipient can look at what we based the scroll on and then we tell them how many hours went into each part of their scroll and what materials were used and how to take care of it and the best way to frame it.

We have gotten some very positive feedback on this from people.

Lady Tegan of Conwy
Dragons Mist
Pale Horse

mka Shelly Taranoff
Canby, Oregon
 - --=====================_24570795==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:40:57 -0400 From: "K. Z." Subject: [scribes]: Comfort grip paint brushes Hello group, I have been looking for brushes for people with arthritis and carpal tunnel syndrom. My hands go numb when painting because I tend to grip the skinny little brushes tightly. I found some brushes that are FABU to say the least. Here are two websites for information and a good deal on them. Just thought I would pass this along. No I do not own stock in the company. :) Loew-Cornell Company: Comfort grip brushes http://www.loew-cornell.com/ The Artist Club suppliers: http://www.artistsclub.com/lobby.asp In Service, Lady Collys Bythesea Only a Pirates life for me. Mutiny is only a difference in opinions. Terra Marique Potens (Powerful by land and sea). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:06:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Allen Freeman Subject: [scribes]: re: final price >Of course we would like to think everyone knows all >this but they don't. There is nothing quite like >visiting someone house and seeing a scroll you spend >umpteen hours on hanging on the wall naked with only >a thumbtack holding it up and the scroll is folded >and mutilated. :( *scream* i hope this hasn't happened to you. I'm a very new scribe so I have yet to actually see any of my work hanging in someone's home, but I have to say where I to find myself in the above situation it may not be the scroll that was left folded & pinned to the wall, that's horrific. - -phaedrus. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:24:42 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: [scribes]: Matting & Framing If more scribes would plan their pieces around store-bought matting and framing, things would be much easier for the recipient. I mean, planning your piece to fit within the pre-cut matting for an 11" x 14" frame shouldn't be all that difficult. And, if you REALLY have to work larger, plan on a 14" x 18" frame. Personally, I was lucky enough to scarf up a really large bunch of matt pieces (some large some small) in an auction when Grissom AFB realigned to a Reserve Base... I will often, as a minimum, matt the piece for the recipient... not often enough, though . Store-bought, pre-cut matts are not all that expensive, folks. Think about it. It will also ensure some stability to limper papers and real vellum. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schönborn (KHvS), OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:39:06 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Matting & Framing If you go with the precut mat option on a scroll, double check to make sure that the mat is acid free. A lot of them aren't. If you use a non-acid free mat, you're kind of defeating the purpose of using acid free paper. And after about 5 years, a non-acid free mat will create foxing around the image area (that's that dark stain you see around the rim of a lot of artwork that wasn't framed with acid free mats). Earlier this year I bought a print of bird from the Salvation Army. It was in a cheap frame, and had some rather nasty foxing (that brown acid induced stain) round the mat edges. But the print was pretty and it looked hand-tinted to me. I took it out of the frame and discovered it had been cut from Martinet's "Birds of the World", printed in about 1780. It was very poorly framed and matted for something that age. I resold the print, unframed and unmatted, on Ebay, but it probably would have brought a little more money if the paper in the image area hadn't been browned by acid staining of the mat. This affected the entire print, lighter towards the center, darker towards the mat. It really doesn't take long for that stain to start appearing, so be cautious in buying precut mats. I currently have a *ton* of mat board scraps that I need to use or get rid of. Would people on this list be interested in some of them? I might be able to make up a list of approximate sizes and colors sometime later in July. I'd be willing to mail them for postage cost. They are all acid free mats - that's all I use. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:50:31 -0600 From: "Crystal Olsen" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Matting & Framing Ooh! Ooh! I'm in! Lady Jaquelinne de Radonvilliers Shire of Gryphon's Lair, Artemisia - -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com [mailto:Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com] Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 4:39 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Matting & Framing If you go with the precut mat option on a scroll, double check to make sure that the mat is acid free. A lot of them aren't. If you use a non-acid free mat, you're kind of defeating the purpose of using acid free paper. And after about 5 years, a non-acid free mat will create foxing around the image area (that's that dark stain you see around the rim of a lot of artwork that wasn't framed with acid free mats). Earlier this year I bought a print of bird from the Salvation Army. It was in a cheap frame, and had some rather nasty foxing (that brown acid induced stain) round the mat edges. But the print was pretty and it looked hand-tinted to me. I took it out of the frame and discovered it had been cut from Martinet's "Birds of the World", printed in about 1780. It was very poorly framed and matted for something that age. I resold the print, unframed and unmatted, on Ebay, but it probably would have brought a little more money if the paper in the image area hadn't been browned by acid staining of the mat. This affected the entire print, lighter towards the center, darker towards the mat. It really doesn't take long for that stain to start appearing, so be cautious in buying precut mats. I currently have a *ton* of mat board scraps that I need to use or get rid of. Would people on this list be interested in some of them? I might be able to make up a list of approximate sizes and colors sometime later in July. I'd be willing to mail them for postage cost. They are all acid free mats - that's all I use. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:07:48 EDT From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Barter & Time - --part1_bf.22430bb2.2a490e54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bringing to mind that 65 1/2 hr backlog scroll I worked on... The recipient's reaction is usually how I gauge the value of my work, although I am not opposed to settling for just being satisfied with putting out a really good "doodle". ;) In the case of this particular scroll, it took some nudging (okay, pushing) to get the recipient to stay for court, and on seeing it, I was asked if I wanted anything in exchange for the work I had done, from gypsy to mercenary. This has been the only such occurrence to-date that involved a barter from a non-commissioned piece, and said gypsy happens to make a very fine and tasty cranberry alcoholic beverage otherwise known as "Gypsy Dance", which I requested in turn. Unless I am approached as listed here, I will not out and out ask for anything from the recipient of a non-commissioned scroll in turn for the work I have done. I have listed the number of hours put into a scroll on but *two* of my scrolls, listing the breakdown of the amount of hours (or seconds) poured into each element of the scroll, from concept and design to execution phases like layout, callig, and illumination. There's been just one negative comment regarding this so far, from someone who may not have been aware that I only did this on 2 scrolls, and I know one of the 2 recipients personally enough to know they would never complain. The criticism regarding the listing of hours on the back of the scroll was that "People generally know how much time and effort is put into a scroll by a scribe. In some circles, putting information on how much time it took you to make the scroll could be considered as snobbish." This was certainly not my intent, but apparently the recipient may have said something to the contrary. I did mention the discussions we have had on this list regarding the subject, of which the SCAdian giving the critique was not aware, however, I suppose I could see how some people may misinterpret it. On an informational level, I would find it rather interesting, but that's only because I appreciate the pieces made by other scribes and SCAdian artisans. Skipping back to the barter issue though... The idea of bartering service for service in the SCA is often a good one. Within my own SCAdian household, I wouldn't charge, but at the same time, I would still be wary of those who do not understand the concept of time vs. capability. In other words, as much as I love my Art, I am not willing to book up all available daylight hours to stay indoors and work on something so elaborate and fancy that it dictates my life for months at a shot. I do that style on an "if I feel like it" basis if it's an award scroll. On a non-commissioned one, I would make sure in advance that the recipient understands I will take breaks when I need them, and may not always be available for contact for the sake of "sanity breaks". ;) I have had one commissioned piece to-date, not a scroll, for which I have requested something I desperately need for Pennsic -- a waterskin. Sounds silly, considering I asked that of someone known to be a brewer, but considering the discomfort of dehydration at War, one can never be too careful. Better to have health and a full wallet, than pass out while doing "marathon shopping" at Pennsic. :) - --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, "Mercenary Scribe" (An Dubhaigheainn, East) Elizabeth Frank, Long Island NY - --part1_bf.22430bb2.2a490e54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bringing to mind that 65 1/2 hr backlog scroll I worked on...

The recipient's reaction is usually how I gauge the value of my work, although I am not opposed to settling for just being satisfied with putting out a really good "doodle". ;) In the case of this particular scroll, it took some nudging (okay, pushing) to get the recipient to stay for court, and on seeing it, I was asked if I wanted anything in exchange for the work I had done, from gypsy to mercenary.

This has been the only such occurrence to-date that involved a barter from a non-commissioned piece, and said gypsy happens to make a very fine and tasty cranberry alcoholic beverage otherwise known as "Gypsy Dance", which I requested in turn. Unless I am approached as listed here, I will not out and out ask for anything from the recipient of a non-commissioned scroll in turn for the work I have done.

I have listed the number of hours put into a scroll on but *two* of my scrolls, listing the breakdown of the amount of hours (or seconds) poured into each element of the scroll, from concept and design to execution phases like layout, callig, and illumination. There's been just one negative comment regarding this so far, from someone who may not have been aware that I only did this on 2 scrolls, and I know one of the 2 recipients personally enough to know they would never complain. The criticism regarding the listing of hours on the back of the scroll was that "People generally know how much time and effort is put into a scroll by a scribe. In some circles, putting information on how much time it took you to make the scroll could be considered as snobbish." This was certainly not my intent, but apparently the recipient may have said something to the contrary. I did mention the discussions we have had on this list regarding the subject, of which the SCAdian giving the critique was not aware, however, I suppose I could see how some people may misinterpret it.

On an informational level, I would find it rather interesting, but that's only because I appreciate the pieces made by other scribes and SCAdian artisans.

Skipping back to the barter issue though... The idea of bartering service for service in the SCA is often a good one. Within my own SCAdian household, I wouldn't charge, but at the same time, I would still be wary of those who do not understand the concept of time vs. capability. In other words, as much as I love my Art, I am not willing to book up all available daylight hours to stay indoors and work on something so elaborate and fancy that it dictates my life for months at a shot. I do that style on an "if I feel like it" basis if it's an award scroll. On a non-commissioned one, I would make sure in advance that the recipient understands I will take breaks when I need them, and may not always be available for contact for the sake of "sanity breaks". ;)

I have had one commissioned piece to-date, not a scroll, for which I have requested something I desperately need for Pennsic -- a waterskin. Sounds silly, considering I asked that of someone known to be a brewer, but considering the discomfort of dehydration at War, one can never be too careful.

Better to have health and a full wallet, than pass out while doing "marathon shopping" at Pennsic. :)

--Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, "Mercenary Scribe" (An Dubhaigheainn, East)
Elizabeth Frank, Long Island NY - --part1_bf.22430bb2.2a490e54_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:35:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Allen Freeman Subject: [scribes]: illuminated music sheets phaidon press's a history of Illuminated Manuscripts isbn 0-7148-3452-1 has several examples of illuminated music, and doubles as a great reference book on illumination in general. - -phaedrus __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:48:27 +1000 From: "Annette Wilson" Subject: [scribes]: treaty images Greetings everyone, I need to produce a White Scarf (fencing) treaty in quick order. Are there any images of existing White Scarf treaties on the web that someone can point me to?? I already have the wording, but I would like to see how others have approached the layout etc. Failing that, can anyone point me to images of extant treaties from the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, preferably showing the signatures and seals. Thank you all in advance Leonie de Grey in Lochac (advancing to Kingdom status in less than 2 weeks) _________________ Annette Wilson Editor, Flora ABRS GPO Box 787 CANBERRA ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA (Street address - Franklin Building Australian National Botanical Gardens Clunies Ross St, ACTON, ACT, 2600) ph: +61 (0)2 6250 9417 fax: +61 (0)2 6250 9448 email: annette.wilson@ea.gov.au =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:57:24 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Barter & Time At 08:07 PM 6/24/2002 -0400, KMcWhyte@aol.com wrote: >The criticism regarding the listing of hours on the back of the scroll was >that "People generally know how much time and effort is put into a scroll >by a scribe. In some circles, putting information on how much time it took >you to make the scroll could be considered as snobbish." This was >certainly not my intent, but apparently the recipient may have said >something to the contrary. I know several scribes who keep track of how long a scroll takes them on the scroll in some manner (tic marks, etc.) and I have never heard anyone say anything about it. A vast majority of people really have no idea how long these things can take unless they have tried it. Personally, I think it's good to keep track of how long a work takes you. That way, you can gauge your time better the next time you do a scroll/work of that type. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:06:07 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price You know, it's interesting that this subject should come up for discussion on this list. I can't tell you how many times at demos, when I have my portfolio out for display, people ask me how much I charge for my work. I usually shrug and tell them that in the SCA, we don't charge for doing award scrolls, that hours upon hours of work are done for free, that we virtually donate our time, labour and materials for the creation of scrolls. Whereupon I am usually met with a puzzled look and a questioning, "What, you GIVE THESE AWAY????" An affirmative answer brings a look of utter astonishment from the folks perusing my work. Then they ask me how much I would charge if they wanted me to do something for them. I am usually speechless at that point, because frankly, I have no idea. I mean, I am an experienced, albeit self-taught, scribe. I usually tell them that I have absolutely no idea how much I would charge, because frankly, I've never sold a single piece of my work. Well, no, I take that back. Some years ago now, I got a call from a woman wanting calligraphed invitations to some social affair. I suppose we should've discussed rate before I got started, but she seemed eager enough and did not seem to think that money was an object, since she was from the wealthier part of town. So I did the work, it was a very large commission with a lot of invitations to be done, and if memory serves, I think I charged her $250 when it was all said and done. She was................well, let us just say not amused. But it took a very long time to do the work and do it right, and I charged what people at the museum where I worked at the time told me my work was worth. Needless to say, her reaction to my pricing of my work caused me to cease taking paid commissions. I've been very leary of people at demos asking me these questions about how much I would charge, because if I told them how much a fully illuminated page would cost them, they'd probably march off in a huff. Heck, even if I only paid myself $5 an hour, not even minimum wage these days, and I put 25 hours into a piece of work I did, which is about average for a fairly simple piece, that would come out to $125. Now, if I charged more like $10 an hour, it would cost them $250. And that isn't even factoring in materials. I don't know as most average folks would want to plunk down that kind of cash for an original piece of artwork. So I tend to avoid talking commissions from people who seem interested in wanting my work, because I don't want them to think that I am even thinking of gouging them by what I could potentially charge for my work. And yet, my brother, who in recent years has started his own contracting business specialising in dry stone masonry and historic masonry restoration, used to, at the beginning, pay himself an absurdly low rate. I yelled at him that his workmanship was worth twice, if not more, than what he charged. His excuse was that he wanted to build a client base, then he would up his rate once he had steady customers and a certification on top of it. Now he's a certified stonemason, the business is up and running full tilt, and he charges good money for his work. The business is actually beginning to turn a modest profit now. I look at him and I think, well, gee, his business is only several years old, and he's making a steady income doing his craft, I have 20+ years at my craft, and I am terrified of the very idea of selling anything I work on because I am afraid of what people will think of what I might want to charge for my hard work. So it's something I constantly agonise over. Should I even think about telling people how much I might charge should they commission a piece from me, or should I avoid all talk of selling stuff and just stay a SCA scribe and use my talents to serve the Society? Tell you the truth, I could sure use some spare cash right now, and if someone was willing to plunk down a few hundred for something I did, I could sure use the money to pay off some debts I have incurred (a phone bill last month the size of Manhattan, due to a family illness overseas, for example!). It's a sore subject for me, ever since that debacle when I charged what my calligraphy was actually worth (I know, we should've discussed pricing at the very outset, saving us both a lot of grief!), but man, it would be nice to make a bit of extra income on occasion to be able to pay bills with! Well, thanks for letting me rant! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:14:14 -0700 From: EowynA Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ink from irises? on 6/24/02 10:33 AM, Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com at Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com wrote: > I had no luck trying to make this into clothlets, though. It was very > watery and the silk really didn't seem to absorb much of it at all. That's > why I tried dying whiting with it to add some bulk. I think if it's > allowed to dry some, so that it's not so thin, it might make decent > clothlets at that point. Tetchubah, The thread on the Caid-laurels list at this point about the use of silk as a layer of clothing mentioned something about silk being specifically NOT water absorbent, and NOT wicking away moisture like linen and cotton do. So maybe the solution to the clothlet problem is to use linen instead of silk. Eowyn =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:19:17 -0700 From: "Jane/Bj Tremaine" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Announcing www.ScribalArts.org ! Cool, we were just given a scanner, know I have to figure out how to use it. Jana Subject: [scribes]: Announcing www.ScribalArts.org ! > Greetings to you, the hard working Scribes of the Known World from Lord > Cystennin Ap Gereint > > At last, after many years of dreaming, planning, one aborted attempt, > and more dreaming... I am finally able to host my own web sites, on my > own server, with my own domain, all from my own home. > www.ScribalArts.org is finally a reality! > > Now all I have to do is find content to fill it with. > > ScribalArts.org is capable of being a full service hosting service. I am > offering free web space as well as email accounts to any SCA Scribe that > is interested. The site is completely based upon Microsoft (my employer) > products and is 100% compatible with the Microsoft Office suite of > products, including Word and FrontPage. This means that for many people > the process of creating their own web pages will be very easy, for most > just a matter of starting up FrontPage! For those that like to use more > traditional web technologies, I am able to support FTP updates, Java, > and Java-Script. > > For persons interested in more advanced web content, the site offers the > latest in Microsoft technologies, including SQL Server 2000, Active > Server Pages (ASP), the new .Net Framework (ASP+), and streaming media. > > I have lot's of plans: > - Free web pages for scribes with no advertising and no space > limitations. > - Free email accounts for scribes > - Broadband content including streaming video of Scribal demos, on-line > classes, and broadcast of interesting video's. > - A handy place to host information of interest to all scribes: > * Frequently asked Question List > * Articles by SCA Scribes > * Interesting links including links to suppliers of interest. > > While the site is still brand-new, it is up and can be browsed. Please > take a look around, kick the tires and tell me what you think. To get > things started, I am publishing all of the documentation I used for five > of my projects in the last Kingdom Arts and Sciences Contest for the > Kingdom of An Tir, in Word format, with pictures and everything. > > I also have a tres' cool web cam that on which you might be able to see > the web-sites mascots frolicking around on my floor! > > > HL Cystennin Ap Gereint > Free Email and Web accounts for SCA Scribes! > Kingdom of An Tir > www.ScribalArts.org > > > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:37:37 +1000 From: R & M Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price When I was learning calligraphy, my teacher gave a talk about how much to charge. He said :- "$30 per hour [as a starting out rate] plus the cost of your ingredients [ nib, ink, gouache (1 tube+), gold] and gold is extra. If they want in next week double the price. If they want it tomorrow either refuse or ask 100 times the price. [If they'll pay you 100 times the price you can stay up all night." Mind you that was 15 years ago, and he was charging $60 per hour himself then. M =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:45:21 +1000 From: R & M Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Melaena wrote: >I'm a little confused here. > >Is this thread talking about charging for scrolls in the SCA? > Ah I thought we were talking about the value of our work. I quite happily do my scrolls for the SCA gratis. I also am a mundane calligrapher, and as such do scrolls and things that I charge for. [ie. not for the SCA College of Scribes] Imho we should be aware [and make others aware] of the value of scrolls that we do. Several people have asked me the insurance value they should put on a scroll. This is a legitimate question , think about it M :-) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #7 ***************************