Re: Belt Book/Girdle Book

From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V8 #6 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, June 24 2002 Volume 08 : Number 006 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. RE: [scribes]: Re: Final price Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price [scribes]: Re: Belt Book/Girdle Book Re: [scribes]: Ink from irises? Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Re: [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price [scribes]: instruction for framing was Re: Final price Re: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:58:23 -0400 From: "Christopher Bogs" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: Final price >Is this thread talking about charging for scrolls in the SCA? I think it is referring more to scrolls that are done on a "commission" basis, rather than done in the normal course of an SCA award. I don't see anything wrong with this-- I wouldn't expect to ask a smith to forge a sword for me without charging me for it, and I wouldn't expect to ask a scribe to make a scroll for me without paying for it, either. Giving our work away for free (as virtually all of us do!) is a wonderful service, but I often wish the general populace would understand that it's a special and extraordinary "perk" they're getting, not something to take for granted! Christoph (whose own AoA scroll is a xerox, from the days when Atenveldt barely ever had real scrolls) Bhakail, East Kingdom - ---------------------- Virtual Scriptorium: http://pobox.upenn.edu/~cbogs/scriptorium.html =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:46:04 EDT From: BessdeNevell@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price - --part1_13e.10506362.2a4898bc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/24/2002 10:29:36 AM Central Daylight Time, melaena1@telusplanet.net writes: > Is this thread talking about charging for scrolls in the SCA? Not for the scrolls per se, I'm in the Middle and love that all the scrolls are original pieces of art. I think that it's a wonderful custom that we have, and we're blessed to have *many* talented artists who get the work done. I can't speak for the other Kingdoms. What is it like in the places where totally original art for every award isn't the norm? Or where there are *HUGE* backlogs? Do scribes charge for scrolls in these places? However, When someone commissions a piece for say, a wedding, a bithday gift, a scroll redone because they don't like what they were given, or even just because they want something nice to hang on their wall. These are things that should be charged for or bartered for, and finding a fair price for one's work can be difficult if a scribe isn't used to doing this. If a scribe is uncomfortable asking for cash for a piece then I think that bartering is a wonderful way to be compensated for your work. Despina has good suggestions for doing so too. I'm *always* willing to paint for people who will sew for me, I am totally inept with a needle and thread. Cheers! ~Bess - --part1_13e.10506362.2a4898bc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/24/2002 10:29:36 AM Central Daylight Time, melaena1@telusplanet.net writes:

Is this thread talking about charging for scrolls in the SCA?

Not for the scrolls per se, I'm in the Middle and love that all the scrolls are original pieces of art. I think that it's a wonderful custom that we have, and we're blessed to have *many* talented artists who get the work done.

I can't speak for the other Kingdoms. What is it like in the places where totally original art for every award isn't the norm? Or where there are *HUGE* backlogs? Do scribes charge for scrolls in these places?

However, When someone commissions a piece for say, a wedding, a bithday gift, a scroll redone because they don't like what they were given, or even just because they want something nice to hang on their wall. These are things that should be charged for or bartered for, and finding a fair price for one's work can be difficult if a scribe isn't used to doing this.

If a scribe is uncomfortable asking for cash for a piece then I think that bartering is a wonderful way to be compensated for your work. Despina has good suggestions for doing so too. I'm *always* willing to paint for people who will sew for me, I am totally inept with a needle and thread.

Cheers!

~Bess
- --part1_13e.10506362.2a4898bc_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:57:14 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price At 09:26 AM 6/24/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I'm a little confused here. > >Is this thread talking about charging for scrolls in the SCA? To me that's >a very debatable issue. No. The issue is helping people to understand the value of the scroll. The option offered is to barter. If a scribe is approached to do a particular scroll by a person (wanting to replace a promissory, being elevated to a peerage, etc.) it is an option for the scribe to request barter. Your Duc de Berrie laurel scroll will take me: 10 hours to research 65 hours to go from blank to illuminated and calligraphed and cost me: $12 in pigments and binder $3 in quills $negligible in ink $45 in gold leaf and gesso $45 in vellum I'm willing to do your scroll at the above listed invoice for a German foldestool made out of red oak. Will the time spent be equal or close enough that you are willing to make such a trade? If not, what item would you be willing to produce for the same trade? If our monetary costs don't equal, the person who spent more will be compensated in dollars for that which the other person went over. (stool materials cost $85, scroll materials cost $105, the stool person gives the scribe $20 in addition to the stool or they agree to forget about the $20). This is the proposal. Not money for scrolls within the SCA. I will not touch that subject. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:04:45 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price Dear folks, Bess asks a number of questions: > Are we as SCA scribes (many without formal art training) just conditioned to be busy little worker bees who give without any regard? Is this tendency different for those who have been through formal art schools? As to the first, yes. We as SCA scribes are indoctrinated to serve. In and of itself, nothing wrong. The problem is that, coupled with our fascination for royalty and fealty, service becomes *subservience*. This is very different from fine-arts school training (such as I had) where self-promotion in the business end was as important as developing artistic vision -- neither of which gets mentioned much among SCA scribes. > How much is your time worth? For most folks in the SCA, this is hobby time away from real-life, a guilty pleasure and time not spent seriously. They judge a scribe's time according to that standard. > Do you have more commissions under your belt? Experience counts. Commissions. What a fne idea. > Another of my girlfriends who is a scribe keeps telling me that she has > "sucker" written across her forehead. She did a backlog scroll, got it > sealed and presented it to the recipient. He then dug out the promissory > that he had been given years ago and asked her to redo it in a different > style with the original words. People may not know art, but they know what they like. That won't change. It would have been nice had someone passed word from recipient to scribe ahead of time, concerning style. Awards and backlogs shouldn't be surprizes. > Yet, for all my questioning, I am still a devoted "service scribe". I live > for seeing my scrolls given out in court and watching the people who've been > honored show them off to their friends. I love the knowledge that my art > proudly hangs in homes across the nation. These things make it worth while, I > wouldn't give it up, I paint because it is my passion. But, I also believe > that somewhere out there is a way to make SCAdians realize the true value of > their pieces of art. Perhaps a grand auction on Ebay, of made-for-Ebay SCA-style work? Let the market speak, and see if anyone listens. - -- Johannes v.n. "Those who don't read ... have no advantage over those who can't" -- Mark Twain =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:33:28 -0400 From: Elizabeth Blatt Subject: [scribes]: Re: Belt Book/Girdle Book - --============_-1187186085==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 8:52 AM -0100 6/24/02, Alienor wrote: >Lady Elianora Matthewes of AEthelmearc has done extensive research >on both girdle books and belt books. (Perhaps she's vacationing at >the moment, because I haven't noticed her popping in on recent >discussions.) The girdle book is as described in earlier posts. >The belt book (I'm not sure it's real name is known--if it had one) >is a different animal. It hangs from the belt and in shape reminds >me of the packs of color strips you get from Sherman Williams--long >and skinny. At the class that Lady Elianora gave on this type of >book, she told us that it was frequently used by doctors to carry >around such things as urine charts or by traveling friars to carry >around the calendar and lectionary. When we made them, we took a >sheet of 8 1/2 by 11 paper and folded it in thirds lengthwise and >then in half. At the top, where it was folded we notched the pages >and then sewed it together, so that you could open the book and then >open out the pages to 8 1/2 by 5 inch individual sheets. Sorry this >isn't a great explanation. Hopefully Lady Elianora is teaching this >class again at Pennsic???? I missed the preceding posts, so I'm not sure if the original question was a how-to or a descriptive inquiry (I've been having a fairly exhaustive streak of ill fortune recently, which has included a flooded apartment and a dead computer; due to both of these, I've not been reading email much--I deleted a ton of messages rather than download them to the new computer, and I've been AFK quite a bit as it is, moving books out of my apartment so my landlord can re-carpet, hopefully sooner than later, and shopping for new bookcases to replace the ones which got damaged by the water). Annnnnyway, assuming a question of description and terminology, I'll summarize what I know about these. Terminology can be confusing, because there are basically two different types of books both referred to as girdle books. One is the "stereotypical" girdle book (with the big knot in a dangling length of cover-material); the other is, as Alienor described above, characterized by folded pages (sometimes called a girdle book, but sometimes called a belt book, which is how I'll refer to it here). Of the former, visual documentation in paintings is not difficult to come across; and there are about thirty surviving girdle books in collections across the world. You can see a picture of one here; it's in Yale's Beinecke Library, and dates to the 15th century. Generally, these are depicted being worn by monks, made out of leather that hasn't been bejeweled or gilded. The binding style is practical; of the surviving manuscripts, all but the one in the Beinecke collection are devotional texts: something referred to on a daily basis. The binding style, with the exception of the cover, is fairly typical: a block of pages collected into gatherings and sewn over cords laced into wooden boards. When hanging from the belt, the text is upside-down; the tail extends from the bottom of the book. This allows one to open and read the book without loosening it from the girdle. Clasps might be single, as in the Beinecke example, or double; they might hook onto the edge of the boards, or the front of the board, which is the method used for the Beinecke manuscript. The size of these books is seldom larger than about five inches--not much larger than the palm of a hand. The second type, the belt book, is more compact than this in size when closed. The primary characteristic is that the pages--which might be as long as 13" or 14" in the largest example for which I have details--are folded, several times. Some of these are made with quires sewn together like a standard medieval book, the pages of which are then folded again (these tend to have higher page counts); but the style I have studied most closely is formed by stacking individual sheets of paper and folding them: first in half towards the spine of the book, then again into thirds or quarters. This turns a sheet of paper that, unfolded, might measure 4 inches wide and 8 inches long, into a book the width of two fingers and the thickness of a single finger. You can see an image of an unfolded sheet here from the Rosenbach Museum; the crease at the top of the image is that half-way horizontal fold. Because the sheets are stacked, there aren't a lot of pages: 8 to 12 individual sheets or thereabouts. As with the girdle books, the text is written upside down so that the pages may be unfolded and read without removing the book from one's belt (from where it dangled by a thong, or loop of cord). The text of surviving belt books--there are about twenty which still exist (dating primarily from the 15th century)--is always professional in nature. As with the Rosenbach example, the pocket books might contain medical information and diagrams for doctors to take with them when visiting a patient; others contain calendars used by priests to figure out feast days and such. The covers on surviving examples of these are more varied: leather, cloth, and decorated cloth (brocade, tablet-woven cloth, I'm not yet sure which); the boards were stiff parchment (and possibly wood; I haven't run into anything that conclusively indicates the use of wood; it's just a likelihood, under certain circumstances). No particular closures are noticeable on any of the images I've seen of surviving examples; and I have not, unfortunately, been able to find any paintings or such depicting them in use (not unsurprisingly, given that these were most often used by professionals, and not types of people typically given to appear in paintings). These may have had a longer lifespan than the girdle books--there is one early 17th century textual reference to the use of books of folded pages with boards made from pasteboard. One of the surviving belt books had text written by the person who owned it--so, in some cases, the books may have been made by the person using it, or written by them and then sent elsewhere for binding. I was trying to be brief, so I'll stop here; and as my handouts now exist on a cd-rom that's in storage, I can't even dig up my bibliography to offer. But if anyone would like more information, and doesn't mind paper copies of older versions the handouts I have on these, please get in touch with me to make arrangements. As of this morning, I haven't packed my handout masters yet. Pennsic is, I'm afraid, not in the picture for me this year--I've got a couple unavoidable professional commitments which are going to oblige me to be elsewhere. Wah! Elianora Mathewes - --============_-1187186085==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Belt Book/Girdle Book

At 8:52 AM -0100 6/24/02, Alienor wrote:

Lady Elianora Matthewes of AEthelmearc has done extensive research on both girdle books and belt books. (Perhaps she's vacationing at the moment, because I haven't noticed her popping in on recent discussions.) The girdle book is as described in earlier posts. The belt book (I'm not sure it's real name is known--if it had one) is a different animal. It hangs from the belt and in shape reminds me of the packs of color strips you get from Sherman Williams--long and skinny. At the class that Lady Elianora gave on this type of book, she told us that it was frequently used by doctors to carry around such things as urine charts or by traveling friars to carry around the calendar and lectionary. When we made them, we took a sheet of 8 1/2 by 11 paper and folded it in thirds lengthwise and then in half. At the top, where it was folded we notched the pages and then sewed it together, so that you could open the book and then open out the pages to 8 1/2 by 5 inch individual sheets. Sorry this isn't a great explanation. Hopefully Lady Elianora is teaching this class again at Pennsic????

I missed the preceding posts, so I'm not sure if the original question was a how-to or a descriptive inquiry (I've been having a fairly exhaustive streak of ill fortune recently, which has included a flooded apartment and a dead computer; due to both of these, I've not been reading email much--I deleted a ton of messages rather than download them to the new computer, and I've been AFK quite a bit as it is, moving books out of my apartment so my landlord can re-carpet, hopefully sooner than later, and shopping for new bookcases to replace the ones which got damaged by the water).

Annnnnyway, assuming a question of description and terminology, I'll summarize what I know about these. Terminology can be confusing, because there are basically two different types of books both referred to as girdle books. One is the "stereotypical" girdle book (with the big knot in a dangling length of cover-material); the other is, as Alienor described above, characterized by folded pages (sometimes called a girdle book, but sometimes called a belt book, which is how I'll refer to it here).

Of the former, visual documentation in paintings is not difficult to come across; and there are about thirty surviving girdle books in collections across the world. You can see a picture of one <a href="http://highway49.library.yale.edu/photonegatives/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002032763444&iid=39002032763444">here</a>; it's in Yale's Beinecke Library, and dates to the 15th century. Generally, these are depicted being worn by monks, made out of leather that hasn't been bejeweled or gilded. The binding style is practical; of the surviving manuscripts, all but the one in the Beinecke collection are devotional texts: something referred to on a daily basis. The binding style, with the exception of the cover, is fairly typical: a block of pages collected into gatherings and sewn over cords laced into wooden boards. When hanging from the belt, the text is upside-down; the tail extends from the bottom of the book. This allows one to open and read the book without loosening it from the girdle. Clasps might be single, as in the Beinecke example, or double; they might hook onto the edge of the boards, or the front of the board, which is the method used for the Beinecke manuscript. The size of these books is seldom larger than about five inches--not much larger than the palm of a hand.

The second type, the belt book, is more compact than this in size when closed. The primary characteristic is that the pages--which might be as long as 13" or 14" in the largest example for which I have details--are folded, several times. Some of these are made with quires sewn together like a standard medieval book, the pages of which are then folded again (these tend to have higher page counts); but the style I have studied most closely is formed by stacking individual sheets of paper and folding them: first in half towards the spine of the book, then again into thirds or quarters. This turns a sheet of paper that, unfolded, might measure 4 inches wide and 8 inches long, into a book the width of two fingers and the thickness of a single finger. You can see an image of an unfolded sheet <a href="http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/biomed/his/immi/rosenbach/rosenbachms1004-29fol8l.html">here</a> from the Rosenbach Museum; the crease at the top of the image is that half-way horizontal fold. Because the sheets are stacked, there aren't a lot of pages: 8 to 12 individual sheets or thereabouts.

As with the girdle books, the text is written upside down so that the pages may be unfolded and read without removing the book from one's belt (from where it dangled by a thong, or loop of cord). The text of surviving belt books--there are about twenty which still exist (dating primarily from the 15th century)--is always professional in nature. As with the Rosenbach example, the pocket books might contain medical information and diagrams for doctors to take with them when visiting a patient; others contain calendars used by priests to figure out feast days and such. The covers on surviving examples of these are more varied: leather, cloth, and decorated cloth (brocade, tablet-woven cloth, I'm not yet sure which); the boards were stiff parchment (and possibly wood; I haven't run into anything that conclusively indicates the use of wood; it's just a likelihood, under certain circumstances). No particular closures are noticeable on any of the images I've seen of surviving examples; and I have not, unfortunately, been able to find any paintings or such depicting them in use (not unsurprisingly, given that these were most often used by professionals, and not types of people typically given to appear in paintings). These may have had a longer lifespan than the girdle books--there is one early 17th century textual reference to the use of books of folded pages with boards made from pasteboard. One of the surviving belt books had text written by the person who owned it--so, in some cases, the books may have been made by the person using it, or written by them and then sent elsewhere for binding.

I was trying to be brief, so I'll stop here; and as my handouts now exist on a cd-rom that's in storage, I can't even dig up my bibliography to offer. But if anyone would like more information, and doesn't mind paper copies of older versions the handouts I have on these, please get in touch with me to make arrangements. As of this morning, I haven't packed my handout masters yet. Pennsic is, I'm afraid, not in the picture for me this year--I've got a couple unavoidable professional commitments which are going to oblige me to be elsewhere. Wah!

Elianora Mathewes

- --============_-1187186085==_ma============-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:33:16 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ink from irises? >>You said that the purple is also light fast--does that mean that the juice can be used by itself as well?<< Probably. By light fast I meant that I had painted some of it onto some paper, and put it into my window for about 2 months. It didn't seem to fade it much, if any. I had no luck trying to make this into clothlets, though. It was very watery and the silk really didn't seem to absorb much of it at all. That's why I tried dying whiting with it to add some bulk. I think if it's allowed to dry some, so that it's not so thin, it might make decent clothlets at that point. Cystennin, how thick/thin was the stuff you made clothlets from? Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:37:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Michelle -TJ- King Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price > And this sounds sappy, but I love knowing that all > across the Known World, > little bits of Margareta's art are sitting happily > on other people's walls. Or will get onto the walls eventually... ;) Cheers, Violante ...who's own little bit of 'Margareta Art' is waiting on the spare $$ for matting and framing... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:45:53 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Realizing value: Final price Interesting how we can vary in price and even by the value of materials. I was just looking at Despina's list, and the items are all for a first class piece of art. However, I would hate to see anybody take ANY such list as a solid guide for pricing (I understand that isn't what you meant, but there will always be people who are desperately trying to "figure out their worth" as artists and will grasp at any such suggestion.) Therefore, just to show that figuring value on art is a totally personal thing that needs to consider many factors about the artist and their materials, consider this: Despina's estimate of materials (good listing) totals at: $90 materials Her labor is estimated at: 75 hours, so if you were to charge $15/hr as a skilled craftsman you end up with $1,125.00 in labor. Add the materials cost for $1,215.00 which means that even the cost of materials is only about 7.4% of the total job. ** Now if I were doing it I would have adifferent cost list. Check this out: Labor: about 50 hours, but I would charge by the half day ($80) and that would be charged at 6.5 days, which is $1.040. My "research" is built into that. Now we get to add materials: Goatskin parchmaent 8x10 $15 (My actual cost is about $7.50 but this is for retail) Gold: $5 based on typical prices I get, and I am pretty economical with my use) Paint & inks: about $1.00 Painting & Writing tools incl. $0 Gilding gesso: $0.5 So my total on materials is only about: $ 21.50, which is 2% of my total investent. Of course the labor and materials actually vary quite a bit with each job, so all of this is pretty meaningless. Each job needs to be figured by its complexity. FYI, I don't charge for an initial award scroll, but I do charge for private whim art and for replacememnts of scrolls that have already been given once. **** But what if it were bristol paper with gold colored ink and the artist was less skilled? Might it even take longer? Is it fair to charge so much per hour if your skills are not so ....uh.... precise, or if it takes you twice as long to do the same work? The bottom line is that it is very hard to get good enough to do this fast enough and with the appropriate amount of skill that you will get paid a reasonable amount for your efforts. Art can be like that. People seldom appreciate the effort of education and developement of skill, let alone consider the time the labor takes. When confronted with this reality most people suddenly go from "Wow! That's so cool! Can you make one for me???" to "Wow, that's so cool, but I can't afford that." In otherwords, they like what they see, wish they could own it, but don't often like it enough to justify the expense. That's why it takes a passion for collection to get a fair price on original art. A clever artist learns to get more visual impact for less investment of time and money. This way they can still get paid what they are worth without it costing too much. You learn to work fast, get the job done with little waste of materials, and to use visual impact to get the client to love it enough for what it DOES cost. RanthulfR "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" wrote: > > At 09:26 AM 6/24/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm a little confused here. > > > >Is this thread talking about charging for scrolls in the SCA? To me that's > >a very debatable issue. > > No. The issue is helping people to understand the value of the > scroll. The option offered is to barter. > > If a scribe is approached to do a particular scroll by a person (wanting to > replace a promissory, being elevated to a peerage, etc.) it is an option > for the scribe to request barter. > > Your Duc de Berrie laurel scroll will take me: > 10 hours to research > 65 hours to go from blank to illuminated and calligraphed > and cost me: > $12 in pigments and binder > $3 in quills > $negligible in ink > $45 in gold leaf and gesso > $45 in vellum > > I'm willing to do your scroll at the above listed invoice for a German > foldestool made out of red oak. Will the time spent be equal or close > enough that you are willing to make such a trade? If not, what item would > you be willing to produce for the same trade? > > If our monetary costs don't equal, the person who spent more will be > compensated in dollars for that which the other person went over. (stool > materials cost $85, scroll materials cost $105, the stool person gives the > scribe $20 in addition to the stool or they agree to forget about the $20). > > This is the proposal. Not money for scrolls within the SCA. I will not > touch that subject. > > Smiles, > Despina > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michelle -TJ- King Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price > However, When someone commissions a piece for say, a > wedding, a bithday gift, > a scroll redone because they don't like what they > were given, or even just > because they want something nice to hang on their > wall. These are things > that should be charged for or bartered for Touche! These are the exact situations where I will charge or work out a barter. I would never seek recompense for a backlogged scroll (the Atlantian backlog is HUGE and I only do backlogs anymore) that the recipient had never recieved. Well, maybe if they wanted something exorbitant... ;) Cheers, Violante __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:10:57 EDT From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: instruction for framing was Re: Final price - --part1_e5.19d638c9.2a48c8c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/24/02 11:29:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, melaena1@telusplanet.net writes: > > Here is a contentious issue: Who feels that the scribe should have some > sort of control over the matting and framing process? I would never > knowingly make a scroll for someone who had no intention of putting it on a > wall ever. I've seen this happen a lot and it really steams me. Forty > hours for a trinket that sits in a drawer. Argh! I would love to be able > to say to the recipient: Okay, I will do you a scroll as long as you > realize that you are honour-bound to get it hung in an appropriate manner! > That will probably never happen but it's a nice fantasy. When I take on > commissions for people I try to remember if they have scrolls hanging up in > their house already. If they do then I generally say yes. > > I have long thought that with every scroll given out in court, someone from the scribes guild should be standing to one side and also hand out an instruction sheet on the value of the art work (just one paragraph on the time and talent that goes into scrolls) and the proper manner for framing and displaying it. "Congratulation on your award and here is the instructions for caring for your new work of art" Of course we would like to think everyone knows all this but they don't. There is nothing quite like visiting someone house and seeing a scroll you spend umpteen hours on hanging on the wall naked with only a thumbtack holding it up and the scroll is folded and mutilated. :( Of course there is nothing like visiting a home and seeing your scrolls beautiful framed and matted and hanging in a place of honor. Tamara - --part1_e5.19d638c9.2a48c8c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/24/02 11:29:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, melaena1@telusplanet.net writes:

Here is a contentious issue: Who feels that the scribe should have some
sort of control over the matting and framing process? I would never
knowingly make a scroll for someone who had no intention of putting it on a
wall ever. I've seen this happen a lot and it really steams me. Forty
hours for a trinket that sits in a drawer. Argh! I would love to be able
to say to the recipient: Okay, I will do you a scroll as long as you
realize that you are honour-bound to get it hung in an appropriate manner!
That will probably never happen but it's a nice fantasy. When I take on
commissions for people I try to remember if they have scrolls hanging up in
their house already. If they do then I generally say yes.

I have long thought that with every scroll given out in court, someone from the scribes guild should be standing to one side and also hand out an instruction sheet on the value of the art work (just one paragraph on the time and talent that goes into scrolls) and the proper manner for framing and displaying it.

"Congratulation on your award and here is the instructions for caring for your new work of art"

Of course we would like to think everyone knows all this but they don't. There is nothing quite like visiting someone house and seeing a scroll you spend umpteen hours on hanging on the wall naked with only a thumbtack holding it up and the scroll is folded and mutilated. :(

Of course there is nothing like visiting a home and seeing your scrolls beautiful framed and matted and hanging in a place of honor.

Tamara - --part1_e5.19d638c9.2a48c8c1_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:22:02 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Re: [scribes]: Re: Final price > Here is a contentious issue: Who feels that the scribe should have some > sort of control over the matting and framing process? I have seen people actually mat and frame the work before giving it! Cool, when you can afford to do it, and do it right. One thing I *have* done is to include a separate sheet of paper with info about materials used (ie, is the paper acid free?) and recommendations about matting, framing, and good locations for display. The first time I did that I was very nervous since it was a Laurel scroll for a fellow who does works of art, but he works in a different medium and appreciated the information. Whew! Lucia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V8 #6 ***************************