From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #92 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, March 20 2002 Volume 07 : Number 092 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question Re: water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question [scribes]: Re: Pigment Stability Re: [scribes]: Water Re: [scribes]: Water Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question Re: water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question [scribes]: scribal symposium ideas Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question [scribes]: 1360 Illuminated MS. for sale on eBay! Re: water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question Re: [scribes]: scribal symposium ideas Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:34:32 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question Cystennin, Despina, M. Katarina, M. Eibhlin, M. RanthulfR and anyone else who I may have forgotten that gave me valued advise, OK, I tried over binding with a very thin layer of gum. And guess what - it worked! I very delicately touched a spot which had dried to test for smearing, and it didn't! It also left a nice matte finish instead of the anticipated glossy, sticky finish I had feared. Next batch of paint gets more binder, period. THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart. You guys are the best! :-) It's so nice to have this list as a resource for when stuff like this happens. I can't tell you how wonderful it is to be able to pick so many brains for advise, information, ideas and problem solving issues! I don't know what I would do without you all! Isn't technology wonderful!!! :-) ~Saradwen, happy scribe Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:31:06 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question > OK, I tried over binding with a very thin layer of gum. And guess what - it > worked! I very delicately touched a spot which had dried to test for > smearing, and it didn't! It also left a nice matte finish instead of the > anticipated glossy, sticky finish I had feared. OK, I take that back. Upon closer examination, there are some glossy spots after all. I waited until it was totally dry and checked it and there are a few spots where I must've laid on the gum too heavily. So how do I solve this problem? I tried very lightly brushing with some distilled water, but it didn't do much. Maybe this scroll is just not meant to be after all...........................(sigh) ~Saradwen the mildly frustrated, but patient scribe =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:26:15 EST From: PDRUSS@aol.com Subject: water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question - --part1_d7.14aa0831.29c95b57_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/18/02 5:36:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenstone@microsoft.com writes: > > If you have already painted with this paint, try going over it very > carefully with some gum water, probably about in a mix of one part gum > to 10 parts distilled water. This will keep the smearing from getting > worse, but may change the color's tonal value it smidge. > Question 1 I see you use the word distilled in your answer. Does that make a difference from tap water. Mostly I use the gouche paint with no trouble. But some times have a little trouble with a few colors. Is it the water? Question 2: Right now I'm painting a scroll that is giving me a terrible time. The paper is very slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it. Tube Gouche Paint I've used many times with no trouble. It is very spotty and I have to use several coats to get a total coverage on all the colors. But the red is especially bad. It has become very sheer, no matter how much color I have put into the paint. I've had to do several coats of the red and it seems the more I do, the spotty-er and darkly spotted it becomes. I ended up scrapping as much red off as I can, thinking to start over, but I don't know where to go now. Change the dress color from red to black? Paint white over the red and re-paint the red? Is this the paper? or something else? I've really been knocking myself out over this scroll. Tamara - --part1_d7.14aa0831.29c95b57_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/18/02 5:36:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenstone@microsoft.com writes:



If you have already painted with this paint, try going over it very
carefully with some gum water, probably about in a mix of one part gum
to 10 parts distilled water. This will keep the smearing from getting
worse, but may change the color's tonal value it smidge.



Question 1
I see you use the word distilled in your answer. Does that make a difference from tap water.

Mostly I use the gouche paint with no trouble. But some times have a little trouble with a few colors. Is it the water?

Question 2:
Right now I'm painting a scroll that is giving me a terrible time. The paper is very slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it. Tube Gouche Paint I've used many times with no trouble.

It is very spotty and I have to use several coats to get a total coverage on all the colors. But the red is especially bad. It has become very sheer, no matter how much color I have put into the paint. I've had to do several coats of the red and it seems the more I do, the spotty-er and darkly spotted it becomes.

I ended up scrapping as much red off as I can, thinking to start over, but I don't know where to go now.

Change the dress color from red to black?
Paint white over the red and re-paint the red?

Is this the paper? or something else?

I've really been knocking myself out over this scroll.
Tamara
 - --part1_d7.14aa0831.29c95b57_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:56:10 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question Question 1 I see you use the word distilled in your answer. Does that make a difference from tap water. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- I can answer that. Simply, yes. Tap water has chemicals in it that change the chemical composition of the paint. Thus distilled water is your best bet. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mostly I use the gouche paint with no trouble. But some times have a little trouble with a few colors. Is it the water? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Possibly. Not sure which colours are giving you grief, but I am willing to bet that this is what's going on. Question 2: Right now I'm painting a scroll that is giving me a terrible time. The paper is very slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it. Tube Gouche Paint I've used many times with no trouble. It is very spotty and I have to use several coats to get a total coverage on all the colors. But the red is especially bad. It has become very sheer, no matter how much color I have put into the paint. I've had to do several coats of the red and it seems the more I do, the spotty-er and darkly spotted it becomes. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - Yeah, I hear ya there. Red can be a real bear, believe me. I've experienced similar problems, but only when I am using powdered pigments mixed that I've mixed with binding agents. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I ended up scrapping as much red off as I can, thinking to start over, but I don't know where to go now. Change the dress color from red to black? Paint white over the red and re-paint the red? - ---------------------------------------------- Hmmm, not sure what to tell you there. Maybe try a different kind of paint, like a nice opaque water colour instead of a gouache. - ------------------------------------------------------ Is this the paper? or something else? - ------------------------------------------------------- What kind of paper are you using? This could be part of your problem. Sympathetically, ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:16:36 -0800 From: Doug Brownell / Thomas Brownwell Subject: [scribes]: Re: Pigment Stability - --------------000907090904000704010504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dearest Saradwen, You wrote: - --------- So in other words, Cystennin, I should use, say, 1 drop of gum to about 10 drops of distilled water, yes? Isn't that going to be too little gum, and too wet over all? Seems to me that the lack of enough binder is what got me in hot water in the first place. [:-(] . . . Would a 50/50 ratio of water and gum work? Say, 5 drops of gum to 5 drops water? That way, you wouldn't have too much binder and a risk of cracking, it seems to me, and the water would prevent the stickiness or glossiness that I would worry about with straight over binding. - ------------- Your concerns are insightful but there is no need to worry. When you first add gum to pigment, the pigment needs a minimum amount of gum compared to the particles of pigment in order to glue them together and to the page. When you later paint on just diluted gum, there is no pigment to worry about except the stuff already on the page -- you're laying down only "glue". All you need to make sure is that the gum which you paint on has the right viscosity / stickiness so that it flows and doesn't pick up too much of the pigment already laid down. So... diluting it does the job there. When the water evaporates, the pigment will now have about double the gum binding it that it had before, and that should be *all* you need to keep it from smearing. Much more and you will definitely have the glossy look that you don't want :-) As Ranthulfr and Cystennin suggested, if a single layer isn't enough, you can always add a second -- but you probably won't have to. It's better to be conservative and add a little at first and then more as needed, than to add too much from the start and end up with a mess. Yours, Thomas - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Douglas Brownell AKA Thomas Brownwell, Calligrapher, brownell@san.rr.com Dancer,Silversmith,Singer,Cobbler,... San Diego, California Barony of Calafia, Caid The 4 elements = good physics:: Or, a fountain, a chief rayonny gules. Goutte enough herald:: (Fieldless) A goutte barry wavy azure and argent. - --------------000907090904000704010504-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 02:05:35 -0500 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Water - --------------486DB0D4CA2E2AB5787CCEEB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tamara, You wrote: > I see you use the word distilled in your answer. Does that make a difference from tap > water. > Mostly I use the gouche paint with no trouble. But some times have a little trouble with > a few colors. Is it the water? The contents of tap water vary widely, depending on where you live, and what happens to be dissolved in your local water supply. Distilled water is better able to hold pigments and binders in suspension - for the simple reason that it doesn't already contain other chemicals. This does matter. It doesn't always matter a great deal. > Question 2: > Right now I'm painting a scroll that is giving me a terrible time. The paper is very > slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it. Tube Gouche Paint I've used many times > with no trouble. > > It is very spotty and I have to use several coats to get a total coverage on all the > colors. But the red is especially bad. It has become very sheer, no matter how much > color I have put into the paint. I've had to do several coats of the red and it seems > the more I do, the spotty-er and darkly spotted it becomes. > > I ended up scrapping as much red off as I can, thinking to start over, but I don't know > where to go now. > > Change the dress color from red to black? > Paint white over the red and re-paint the red? > > Is this the paper? or something else? You've answered your own question. "The paper is very slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it." If you're in a position to start over, get rid of the slick paper and buy a sheet of Arches 140lb. Hot Press watercolour paper. If you must continue working with the paper you have, try adding a drop of Winsor & Newton Ox Gall Liquid to your gouache. Ox Gall is a surfactant, which will reduce the surface tension of the water in paint to which it's added. That will make the paint more likely to stay where you place it, instead of gathering in droplets on the surface of the paper. Some papers are totally unsuitable for watercolour. You may save yourself a lot of hassle by throwing out the slick paper sooner, rather than later. (I know......that's easy for me to say. I'm not the one who's been working on the scroll.) :-/ Peace, Peter - --------------486DB0D4CA2E2AB5787CCEEB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tamara,

You wrote:

I see you use the word distilled in your answer. Does that make a difference from tap water.
Mostly I use the gouche paint with no trouble. But some times have a little trouble with a few colors. Is it the water?


The contents of tap water vary widely, depending on where you live, and what happens to be dissolved in your local water supply.  Distilled water is better able to hold pigments and binders in suspension - for the simple reason that it doesn't already contain other chemicals.  This does matter.  It doesn't always matter a great deal.
 

Question 2:
Right now I'm painting a scroll that is giving me a terrible time. The paper is very slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it. Tube Gouche Paint I've used many times with no trouble.

It is very spotty and I have to use several coats to get a total coverage on all the colors. But the red is especially bad. It has become very sheer, no matter how much color I have put into the paint. I've had to do several coats of the red and it seems the more I do, the spotty-er and darkly spotted it becomes.

I ended up scrapping as much red off as I can, thinking to start over, but I don't know where to go now.

Change the dress color from red to black?
Paint white over the red and re-paint the red?

Is this the paper? or something else?


You've answered your own question.   "The paper is very slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it."

If you're in a position to start over, get rid of the slick paper and buy a sheet of Arches 140lb. Hot Press watercolour paper.  If you must continue working with the paper you have, try adding a drop of Winsor & Newton Ox Gall Liquid to your gouache.  Ox Gall is a surfactant, which will reduce the surface tension of the water in paint to which it's added.  That will make the paint more likely to stay where you place it, instead of gathering in droplets on the surface of the paper.

Some papers are totally unsuitable for watercolour.  You may save yourself a lot of hassle by throwing out the slick paper sooner, rather than later.  (I know......that's easy for me to say.  I'm not the one who's been working on the scroll.)   :-/

Peace,

Peter
  - --------------486DB0D4CA2E2AB5787CCEEB-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:26:22 EST From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Water - --part1_153.abe9f5f.29c9f60e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While we are on the topic of water... I have a well which has a high iron count & we filter it with a charcoal & a salination (salt) tank. I use distilled water to hydrate my paints, but I use tap water to rinse my brushes. Does anyone have some insights as to the possible effects of this amount of tap water on my colors? Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_153.abe9f5f.29c9f60e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While we are on the topic of water...  I have a well which has a high iron count & we filter it with a charcoal & a salination (salt) tank.  I use distilled water to hydrate my paints, but I use tap water to rinse my brushes.  Does anyone have some insights as to the possible effects of this amount of tap water on my colors?  

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_153.abe9f5f.29c9f60e_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:36:19 +0000 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question There are two possible culprits. Either you have too much gum that settled or pooled in that spot (which might even cause it to be brittle there) OR, if you added a tiny touch of honey for flexibility it might be due to the honey. In De Arte Illuminandi it talks about removing the extra from the binding solution WHILE IT IS STILL IN THE WELL/ SHELL/ JAR by pouring water over it, letting the water leach out some of the excess, and then removing that water. Obviously this same thing can't be done on the scroll, but it might be possible to lift out the area with a damp brush and then repaint with the same color that has been properly tempered. Just lightly brushing it with a wet brush won't change the pigment/binder/sugar ratio. It will just move what is there around and pull it equally off onto the brush. Good luck! RanthulfR Sally Burnell wrote: > > > OK, I tried over binding with a very thin layer of gum. And guess what - > it > > worked! I very delicately touched a spot which had dried to test for > > smearing, and it didn't! It also left a nice matte finish instead of the > > anticipated glossy, sticky finish I had feared. > > OK, I take that back. Upon closer examination, there are some glossy spots > after all. I waited until it was totally dry and checked it and there are a > few spots where I must've laid on the gum too heavily. > > So how do I solve this problem? I tried very lightly brushing with some > distilled water, but it didn't do much. > > Maybe this scroll is just not meant to be after > all...........................(sigh) > > ~Saradwen the mildly frustrated, but patient scribe > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:22:59 +0000 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question Just a few comments real quick. First, the opacity of a color is dependent on a few different things. It depends on what kind of red pigment you were using, and it depends on how well ground the color is (some manufacturers vary a LITTLE in grade), and it depends on whether you put in any other colors like WHITE, and it depends on whether the paint has a lot of binder or a little, or on whether it is gouache or water color. For example, you will never get a staining color like alizarin crimson to be 100% opaque. The thicker the coat the darker it gets. True cadmium red will naturally go on very opaquely. Adding a touch of white will allow a color like alizarin red to go on more opaquely and keep it light in mass tone. GOUACHE is watercolor that has had a material called blanc fix added to make it more opaque. Not the other way around. It is ALWAYS more opaque than regular watercolor. One last thing, a really slippery paper that resists the penetration of colors in fluid will allow colors to be pushed around on the surface. This increases spottiness because you are actually pushing waves of paint into minute dense areas at the expense of the areas that you wiped it over from. Those areas end up being wiped clean to feed the little thicker areas. Your paper is not absorbent enough. Go get a paper that is designed to be painted on. RanthulfR Sally Burnell wrote: > > Question 1 > I see you use the word distilled in your answer. Does that make a difference > from tap water. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I can answer that. Simply, yes. Tap water has chemicals in it that change > the chemical composition of the paint. Thus distilled water is your best > bet. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mostly I use the gouche paint with no trouble. But some times have a little > trouble with a few colors. Is it the water? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Possibly. Not sure which colours are giving you grief, but I am willing to > bet that this is what's going on. > > Question 2: > Right now I'm painting a scroll that is giving me a terrible time. The paper > is very slick, and the paint doesn't want to cover it. Tube Gouche Paint > I've used many times with no trouble. > > It is very spotty and I have to use several coats to get a total coverage on > all the colors. But the red is especially bad. It has become very sheer, no > matter how much color I have put into the paint. I've had to do several > coats of the red and it seems the more I do, the spotty-er and darkly > spotted it becomes. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Yeah, I hear ya there. Red can be a real bear, believe me. I've experienced > similar problems, but only when I am using powdered pigments mixed that I've > mixed with binding agents. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I ended up scrapping as much red off as I can, thinking to start over, but I > don't know where to go now. > > Change the dress color from red to black? > Paint white over the red and re-paint the red? > ---------------------------------------------- > Hmmm, not sure what to tell you there. Maybe try a different kind of paint, > like a nice opaque water colour instead of a gouache. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Is this the paper? or something else? > ------------------------------------------------------- > What kind of paper are you using? This could be part of your problem. > > Sympathetically, > ~Saradwen > Midrealm > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:54:35 -0600 (CST) From: sburnell@raex.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question Ah, OK, I can do that. I tried last night to lightly damp brush it - worked in some spots, not in others. I think you're right about pooling. It was more pervasive in smaller areas, particularly vine leaves, than in larger areas. I didn't add any honey since I haven't got any around the house at the moment, but I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to go buy some. I figured on making another batch of pigment, this time with a better water/binder ratio, and if I make a run to the store tonight, maybe I'll try picking up some honey. How much would you advise adding? Thanks SO much for your help, Master RanthulfR! It is always sincerely appreciated! :-) ~Saradwen Midrealm > There are two possible culprits. Either you have too much gum that > settled or pooled in that spot (which might even cause it to be brittle > there) OR, if you added a tiny touch of honey for flexibility it might > be due to the honey. In De Arte Illuminandi it talks about removing the > extra from the binding solution WHILE IT IS STILL IN THE WELL/ SHELL/ > JAR by pouring water over it, letting the water leach out some of the > excess, and then removing that water. > > Obviously this same thing can't be done on the scroll, but it might be > possible to lift out the area with a damp brush and then repaint with > the same color that has been properly tempered. Just lightly brushing it > with a wet brush won't change the pigment/binder/sugar ratio. It will > just move what is there around and pull it equally off onto the brush. > > Good luck! =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:08:29 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: scribal symposium ideas Greetings unto the scribes list from Lady Ellen of the Scholars. One of the groups in my area (The Midlands - Illinois) has been toying with the idea of hosting a scribal symposium. We have access to an excellent facility with plenty of classrooms and a large central area. (The date & details have not been finalized, but I will be sure to extend an invitation to the entire list when the date is decided!) I thought the scribes list might be able to suggest some activities. Perhaps something that you saw or did at a previous event that was particularly successful? We would, of course, have classes. We'd also like to have a "show-and-tell" area for scribes to bring their portfolios & socialize & critique each other's work. We'd also like to include a large work area where folks can set up their current projects or try a few new techniques while their buddies (and other experienced scribes) are nearby to lend a hand. I was thinking a midday lunch would provide a good break. How do you all feel about staying late? Would a feast or dancing in the evening be something you'd consider, or would you rather have more classes and perhaps an open "round table" discussion? Maybe some form of post-revel? I'd also like to include some form of "scribal challenge." A competition-format event. (Best scroll with a given theme or style, complete a piece within a several-hour deadline, most unique/humorous/imaginative use of calligraphy, etc.) Any ideas? I thank you in advance for your advice and input! Ellen =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:26:35 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question >I figured on making another batch of pigment, this time with a better >water/binder ratio, and if I make a run to the store tonight, maybe >I'll try picking up some honey. How much would you advise adding? Warm the honey and add a drop. Then paint a line on a scrap and wait for it to dry. If the line becomes glossy and brittle, you have too much binder. If the line smears, add another drop of honey. Then paint another line and.... well, you get the idea. *grin* Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:36:59 +0000 (US/Eastern) From: sburnell@raex.com Subject: [scribes]: 1360 Illuminated MS. for sale on eBay! OK, folks, really wanna drool? Got several thousand dollars lying around you wanna blow? Check out this 1360 Portugese MS. for sale on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=852526231 Heck, just go download the .jpg's for future reference, since undoubtedly it'll end up in the hands of a private collector and we'll never see it again. ~Saradwen, wishing I was rich, had plenty of $$$ to spare.......... Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:01:13 -0400 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: water Re: [scribes]: Pigment stability question Ok, first I haven't been following this very closely as I have been busy.... but... Today I pulled down a sheet with paint samples I put on it months ago from the window..... some of the colours did change, they were all bound with the same amount of gumwater (I was just checking for light fastness) and have found some samples showed more evidence of craking. It could be the binding agent and nature of the pigment combined with the cold temperature and dampness of the window, I do not know... But found this: red oxide, yellow ochre and ultramarine were the only ones out of many I have tried that cracked.... as well, if titanium white was tested over any of these, it showed to crack even worse though it did not at all on its own. None of the pigments ran or rubbed off.. not even the verdigris which is the only one I didn't use the gum... just vinegar... though I hope to someday make a proper paint of it. Griet =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:11:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: Re: [scribes]: scribal symposium ideas For a show and tell area, if you provide sheets of plexiglas to cover scrolls, the artist doesn't need to be present at all times. Also, if you provide little booklets for each display (anybody up for a book-binding project?) people can record their comments, so people have a record of critiques. This frees people up to attend classes instead of hanging out in the display room all day. Graidhne On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Cindy Baker wrote: > Greetings unto the scribes list from Lady Ellen of the Scholars. > > One of the groups in my area (The Midlands - Illinois) has been toying with > the idea of hosting a scribal symposium. > We have access to an excellent facility with plenty of classrooms and a > large central area. (The date & details have not been finalized, but I will > be sure to extend an invitation to the entire list when the date is decided!) > > I thought the scribes list might be able to suggest some activities. > Perhaps something that you saw or did at a previous event that was > particularly successful? > > We would, of course, have classes. We'd also like to have a "show-and-tell" > area for scribes to bring their portfolios & socialize & critique each > other's work. We'd also like to include a large work area where folks can > set up their current projects or try a few new techniques while their > buddies (and other experienced scribes) are nearby to lend a hand. > > I was thinking a midday lunch would provide a good break. How do you all > feel about staying late? Would a feast or dancing in the evening be > something you'd consider, or would you rather have more classes and perhaps > an open "round table" discussion? Maybe some form of post-revel? > > I'd also like to include some form of "scribal challenge." A > competition-format event. (Best scroll with a given theme or style, > complete a piece within a several-hour deadline, most > unique/humorous/imaginative use of calligraphy, etc.) Any ideas? > > I thank you in advance for your advice and input! > Ellen > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:35:30 +0000 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Over binding, was Pigment stability question Ack! No! Not pigment-water! The important ratio is pigment-BINDER! As for honey, it isn't required unless you are intentionally going for a gloss effect that uses a HEAVY BINDER proportion to the pigment. Normally this would cause the paint film to crack or crumble, but the smallest HINT of sugar, such as honey, can maintain the flexibility. You must experiment with the ratio. It is again Binder-honey that is important, not water-honey ratio. Too much honey (sugar content) will make the medium permanently soft and goopy! Err on the side of caution and adjust to JUST the beginning of glossy. Really, this needs to be clear beyond anything else. The water content is irrelevant (until you thin it beyond reason). Water is only there to make it flow! It goes away, so forget about it. Even a glue such as gum arabic is wet glue when you get it in a jar. That means they already put water in it. Therefore, unless you know how potent the binder solution is at that degree of hydration, it is meaningless to give out recipes using X amount of gum binder to pigment. The ONLY time you can do that is if you first name the brand of gum water, such as Winsor & Newton Gum Arabic Watercolor medium. Otherwise somebody out there with gum crystals that they powdered and soaked into a solution might presume the amount you state applies to their mix as well. That wouldn't necessarily be true. RanthulfR sburnell@raex.com wrote: > > Ah, OK, I can do that. I tried last night to lightly damp brush it - > worked in some spots, not in others. I think you're right about > pooling. It was more pervasive in smaller areas, particularly vine > leaves, than in larger areas. I didn't add any honey since I haven't > got any around the house at the moment, but I suppose it wouldn't be a > bad idea to go buy some. > > I figured on making another batch of pigment, this time with a better > water/binder ratio, and if I make a run to the store tonight, maybe > I'll try picking up some honey. How much would you advise adding? > > Thanks SO much for your help, Master RanthulfR! It is always sincerely > appreciated! :-) > > ~Saradwen > Midrealm > > > There are two possible culprits. Either you have too much gum that > > settled or pooled in that spot (which might even cause it to be > brittle > > there) OR, if you added a tiny touch of honey for flexibility it > might > > be due to the honey. In De Arte Illuminandi it talks about removing > the > > extra from the binding solution WHILE IT IS STILL IN THE WELL/ > SHELL/ > > JAR by pouring water over it, letting the water leach out some of > the > > excess, and then removing that water. > > > > Obviously this same thing can't be done on the scroll, but it might > be > > possible to lift out the area with a damp brush and then repaint > with > > the same color that has been properly tempered. Just lightly > brushing it > > with a wet brush won't change the pigment/binder/sugar ratio. It > will > > just move what is there around and pull it equally off onto the > brush. > > > > Good luck! - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #92 ****************************