From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #78 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, February 14 2002 Volume 07 : Number 078 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Mat sizes [scribes]: OFF TOPIC: Anyone know a "Thomas Blackheart" ? Re: [scribes]: Mat sizes [scribes]: introduction Re: [scribes]: Mat sizes Re: [scribes]: Mat sizes [scribes]: Looking for a hand Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand [scribes]: Intro Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Re: [scribes]: Intro [scribes]: re: L. Peskett's scroll work ( Lady T) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:40:27 EST From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Mat sizes - --part1_21.18f0d1d2.299b1e0b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may be stating something that is already well known to many of you, but I just had a rather rude awakening today. I was in AC Moore (arts & crafts store) today looking for a mat & frame to frame a scroll I just did for a mundane friend & discovered that 8x10 does not mean 8x10. A mat that says that it is 11x14 with an 8x10 opening is 11x14 on the outside, but the opening is really 7 1/2 x 9 1/2. That means that all of the scrolls that I have done according to the recommendations that I found on a couple of the scribal sites will need to have mats custom cut. So for those of you who are doing scrolls with the ease of framing for the recipient in mind be aware that the opening sizes are working on the assumption that you are framing a photograph & that some of the edge will be covered up. So here are the real mat openings: Exterior measurement -- Opening 16" x 20 " -- 10 1/2" x 13 1/2" 11" x 14" -- 7 1/2" x 9 1/2" 8" x 10" -- 4 1/2" x 6 1/2" 5" x 7" -- 3" x 4 1/2" I hope this information is of some use to someone out there. Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_21.18f0d1d2.299b1e0b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I may be stating something that is already well known to many of you, but I just had a rather rude awakening today. I was in AC Moore (arts & crafts store) today looking for a mat & frame to frame a scroll I just did for a mundane friend & discovered that 8x10 does not mean 8x10. A mat that says that it is 11x14 with an 8x10 opening is 11x14 on the outside, but the opening is really 7 1/2 x 9 1/2. That means that all of the scrolls that I have done according to the recommendations that I found on a couple of the scribal sites will need to have mats custom cut. So for those of you who are doing scrolls with the ease of framing for the recipient in mind be aware that the opening sizes are working on the assumption that you are framing a photograph & that some of the edge will be covered up.

So here are the real mat openings:
Exterior measurement     -- Opening
16" x 20 "      --          10 1/2" x 13 1/2"
11" x 14"       --          7 1/2" x 9 1/2"
8" x 10"         --          4 1/2" x 6 1/2"
5" x 7"           --          3" x 4 1/2"

I hope this information is of some use to someone out there.

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_21.18f0d1d2.299b1e0b_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:04:03 -0800 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: OFF TOPIC: Anyone know a "Thomas Blackheart" ? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1B432.B61F60DE" - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1B432.B61F60DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the off topic post, but I am interested in a wide geographic distribution for this query, but not necessarily a loud noticeable one... =20 Do any of you know anyone by this name? If so, could you drop me a line privately? =20 Cystennin, your list moderator. :-) - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1B432.B61F60DE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry for the off topic post, but I am interested in = a wide geographic distribution for this query, but not necessarily a loud = noticeable one…

Do any of you know anyone by this name? If so, could = you drop me a line privately?

Cystennin, your list moderator. J

=00 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1B432.B61F60DE-- - --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:30:23 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mat sizes Generally, what I learned when picture framing is that unless you are cutting your own mats, the sizes cited are for the *paper* size, not the opening size. You need some overlap of the paper by the mat or else you'd be gaping around the edges. Standard overlap for openings is 1/4 inch on all sides (taking away that 1/2 inch you're seeing in your pre-cut mats). The reason they do this, at least IMO, is because most people think of photographs when they buy frames and mats, and the photo paper is made to those sizes. If you get an 8x10 picture, that's the size of the paper it's printed on, not necessarily the size of the picture (although those wide white borders that were always done on photos when I was a kid don't seem to be done at all any more). You might want to consider cutting your own mats - it's not that difficult, and you get a better selection of color combinations that way anyway. And you can cut the opening any size you want. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:26:30 -0800 From: "Elizabeth Marshak" Subject: [scribes]: introduction Greetings, I have had an interest in scribal illumination for a long time and I have finally gotten around to buying tools, books, supplies, and started work. I am mainly interested in 11th-14th century Europe. All the books and supplies are entirely too much fun. I have been having great trouble recently pulling myself away and going to bed :) In service to the dream, Elizabeth Annora Dernelof, CAID Glendale, CA =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:32:48 +0000 From: "Russell Husted" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mat sizes Thank you. I was wondering about that just 2 days ago. We either need to educate our scribes to make scrolls aready mattable. The reason I say this, is I have been wanting to hang my families scrolls for quite some time now, but could never find a store bought frame for them. I was not willing to go spend lots of money per scroll to get them framed and matted, so they have sat in their envelopes since the day we received them. Matability(the ease there in) is important if we want people to take care of the hard work our people do. your servant, mahee From: Floriligeum@aol.com To: scribes@castle.org Subject: [scribes]: Mat sizes Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:40:27 EST I may be stating something that is already well known to many of you, but I just had a rather rude awakening today. I was in AC Moore (arts & crafts store) today looking for a mat & frame to frame a scroll I just did for a mundane friend & discovered that 8x10 does not mean 8x10. A mat that says that it is 11x14 with an 8x10 opening is 11x14 on the outside, but the opening is really 7 1/2 x 9 1/2. That means that all of the scrolls that I have done according to the recommendations that I found on a couple of the scribal sites will need to have mats custom cut. So for those of you who are doing scrolls with the ease of framing for the recipient in mind be aware that the opening sizes are working on the assumption that you are framing a photograph & that some of the edge will be covered up. So here are the real mat openings: Exterior measurement -- Opening 16" x 20 " -- 10 1/2" x 13 1/2" 11" x 14" -- 7 1/2" x 9 1/2" 8" x 10" -- 4 1/2" x 6 1/2" 5" x 7" -- 3" x 4 1/2" I hope this information is of some use to someone out there. Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 14:59:45 -0500 From: "Laura Peskett" <2rozakii@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mat sizes Hello everyone, I've just rejoined today and if my message is a repeat of what someone else has already suggested this, I apologize. When I do scrolls, I do them standard frame sizes. If the paper is 11x14, then I do a one inch margin making the actual illuminated area only 9x12. This allows for differing mat sizes. It's a good rule of thumb that I try to pass on to new scribes. (It was one of the first pieces of advice that my teacher gave me.) :-) Tzitzakion Barony Beyond the Mountain East Kingdom mka Laura Peskett - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Husted" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mat sizes > Thank you. I was wondering about that just 2 days ago. We either need to > educate our scribes to make scrolls aready mattable. The reason I say this, > is I have been wanting to hang my families scrolls for quite some time now, > but could never find a store bought frame for them. I was not willing to go > spend lots of money per scroll to get them framed and matted, so they have > sat in their envelopes since the day we received them. Matability(the ease > there in) is important if we want people to take care of the hard work our > people do. > > your servant, > mahee > > > From: Floriligeum@aol.com > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: [scribes]: Mat sizes > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:40:27 EST > > I may be stating something that is already well known to many of you, but I > just had a rather rude awakening today. I was in AC Moore (arts & crafts > store) today looking for a mat & frame to frame a scroll I just did for a > mundane friend & discovered that 8x10 does not mean 8x10. A mat that says > that it is 11x14 with an 8x10 opening is 11x14 on the outside, but the > opening is really 7 1/2 x 9 1/2. That means that all of the scrolls that I > have done according to the recommendations that I found on a couple of the > scribal sites will need to have mats custom cut. So for those of you who > are > doing scrolls with the ease of framing for the recipient in mind be aware > that the opening sizes are working on the assumption that you are framing a > photograph & that some of the edge will be covered up. > > So here are the real mat openings: > Exterior measurement -- Opening > 16" x 20 " -- 10 1/2" x 13 1/2" > 11" x 14" -- 7 1/2" x 9 1/2" > 8" x 10" -- 4 1/2" x 6 1/2" > 5" x 7" -- 3" x 4 1/2" > > I hope this information is of some use to someone out there. > > Yours in service, > > Sarra the Lymner > > Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom > MKA Sarah Dressler > Sarra's > Florilegium > www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:34:58 -0700 From: "Cindy Croy" Subject: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew of a good hand that doesn't rely so much on a wide nib, that would be possible to practice with a regular pen. I don't know if that makes any sense. I'm not looking for a hand for doing scrolls. I'm learning caroligian miniscule currently for that. I have terrible handwriting. I want to develop a good hand that looks elegant etc. for use in everyday life, sorta. Something that would be written more with a fine tip fountain pen. ??? The older the script the better, because there's no way in all the levels of darkness that I'll ever have a good modern cursive like I learned in grade school. Anyway, thanks in advance for ANY advice. Any books, references, examples, etc. would be more than appreciated! Maraming Salamat - -Aelia of Artemisia There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:54:29 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Why don't you try copperplate? That's something that can generally be done with a fountain pen, looks exceedingly elegant when done properly, and can be practiced with a regular pen if you really need to (although the thicks and thins of the lettering couldn't be done with a ballpoint). I always thought of this as "the victorian hand" because it's essentially a classical script hand, seen in all your better Victorian documents ;-) Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:10:31 -0500 From: "Peter B. Steiner" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Cindy, One option is to learn an italic cursive, which can be written with a square-nib fountain pen. The book "The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting" is an excellent introduction. Darned if I can remember the author's name. :-/ Believe it or not, there are good quality italic fountain pens on the market. (Pens which won't leak in your pocket or purse.) Rotring Art Pens are among the better ones which are currently available. Rotring ink cartridges are available in a variety of colors; and the company also makes an adapter which allows the use of bottled ink. My favorite italic fountain pen is the Pelikan MC120 Deluxe. I don't believe it is currently in production; but every once in awhile I see one for sale on eBay. Both the Pelikan and the Rotring pens are capable of handling pigmented ink, such as Pelikan Fount India or Higgins Fountain Pen India. I've carried my Pelikan on air trips - and it has yet to spring a leak in mid-flight. No doubt it would be classified as a lethal weapon if I tried to fly with it today. Hope this helps! - -Pete- Peter Gwer Rychen von Bern Lapidary & Scribal Arts Barony of The Rhyderrich Hael Aethelmearc AKA Pete Steiner, Buffalo, NY, USA Cindy Croy wrote: > > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew of a good hand that doesn't rely > so much on a wide nib, that would be possible to practice with a > regular pen. I don't know if that makes any sense. I'm not looking > for a hand for doing scrolls. I'm learning caroligian miniscule > currently for that. I have terrible handwriting. I want to develop a > good hand that looks elegant etc. for use in everyday life, sorta. > Something that would be written more with a fine tip fountain pen. > ??? The older the script the better, because there's no way in all > the levels of darkness that I'll ever have a good modern cursive like I > learned in grade school. > > Anyway, thanks in advance for ANY advice. Any books, > references, examples, etc. would be more than appreciated! > Maraming Salamat > -Aelia of Artemisia > > There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:57:27 -0800 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand "Peter B. Steiner" wrote: > > Cindy, > > One option is to learn an italic cursive, which can be > written with a square-nib fountain pen. The book "The > Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting" is an excellent > introduction. Darned if I can remember the author's name. Fred Eager. I learned calligraphy using that book, twenty-five years ago. Branwen ferch Emrys - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:06:19 -0800 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Cindy Croy wrote: > > The older the script the better, because there's no way in all > the levels of darkness that I'll ever have a good modern cursive like I > learned in grade school. While I don't remember the details, there's actually a real scientific reason why cursive handwriting gets worse as we get older. It has something to do with the direction in which the curves in the letters in your name turn, your brain, and your hand coordination. Branwen ferch Emrys - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 07:58:27 -0500 From: "Laura Peskett" <2rozakii@attbi.com> Subject: [scribes]: Intro Greetings fellow scribes! I have once again re-joined the scribes list. So, some of you may remember me. :-) (We were having problems with the AT&T cable switch-over and lost all of our subscriptions.) My name is Lady Tzitzakion (curious on how to pronounce that? Change the TZ in to CH - Chi (like in chicken) Chack Ian (as in the boys name)) and I currently reside in the Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom. I'm a transplant from Ealdormere. :-) I've been an illuminator for over 6 years and have finally started trying my hand at calligraphy. My favorite styles of illumination are the Luttrell Psalter, Ottonian and Bar and Vine. Please feel free to check out my webpage to see some examples of my work. http://members.tripod.com/tzitzakion/index.htm It's a work in progress - hopefully with more to be added this month. YIS, Tzitzakion BBM, East (Laura Peskett) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 06:49:33 -0800 (PST) From: Anandashankar Mazumdar Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Cindy, there are lots of books out there (might want to check the library) that advocate teaching people an Italic cursive handwriting. One I have is "Please Write: How to Improve Your Handwriting for Business and Pleasure in Ten Quick and Easy Lessons" by Wolf Von Eckardt. A lot of these books advocate teaching such an Italic hand to kids in school, instead of the loopy script that has been the staple of American schools for decades. According to these people, the script that is taught in school was originally designed for a flexible-nib pen and is completely inappropriate for the way we write in real life today, and it virtually guarantees bad handwriting for a majority of the population. Check out -- http://www.cep.pdx.edu/titles/write_now/faq.htm http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/quilljar/rules.html I think there are even some Web pages on handwriting reform that demonstrates a simple Italic script that is easy to learn and teach. - --- Cindy Croy wrote: > Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew of a good hand > that doesn't rely > so much on a wide nib, that would be possible to > practice with a > regular pen. I don't know if that makes any sense. > I'm not looking > for a hand for doing scrolls. I'm learning > caroligian miniscule > currently for that. I have terrible handwriting. I > want to develop a > good hand that looks elegant etc. for use in > everyday life, sorta. > Something that would be written more with a fine tip > fountain pen. > ??? The older the script the better, because > there's no way in all > the levels of darkness that I'll ever have a good > modern cursive like I > learned in grade school. > > Anyway, thanks in advance for ANY advice. Any > books, > references, examples, etc. would be more than > appreciated! > Maraming Salamat > -Aelia of Artemisia > > There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental > illness." > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any > additional text in > the body. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:04:11 -0700 From: "Cindy Croy" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for a hand Thank you so much to all those who answered. I'm excited to go check this stuff out! Ya'll are the best!!! Thanks again! - -Aelia of Artemisia There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:52:12 -0800 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: Intro Laura Peskett wrote: > > Please feel free to check out my > webpage to see some examples of my work. > http://members.tripod.com/tzitzakion/index.htm It's a work in progress - > hopefully with more to be added this month. You do gorgeous work! Branwen ferch Emrys - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:52:51 -0500 From: AltAndreas100@netscape.net Subject: [scribes]: re: L. Peskett's scroll work ( Lady T) I have to agree with Branwen- your scrolls really reflect a talented hand -I particularly liked the simplistic style of Scroll 47 - so simple, yet so elegant. My scroll blanks are more like your 49 and 63 types, but not nearly so beautiful yet, and bar and ivy is beyond my hand - all those swirls get me cross-eyed! :) Yours are really beautiful work! Baron Alt "the envious" in the Shire of Heatherwyne, CAID >>> Please feel free to check out my >> webpage to see some examples of my work. >> http://members.tripod.com/tzitzakion/index.htm It's a work in progress - >> hopefully with more to be added this month. > >You do gorgeous work! > >Branwen ferch Emrys > - -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #78 ****************************