From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #57 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, January 2 2002 Volume 07 : Number 057 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: 2 questions Re: [scribes]: 2 questions Re: [scribes]: 2 questions [scribes]: Monthly Administrivia Mailing [scribes]: Monthly Administrivia Mailing [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V7 #55 [scribes]: cleaning ooooold pens [scribes]: Carolingian miniscule illumination [scribes]: Scribe event in April in Atlantia! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:47:10 EST From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: 2 questions - --part1_bb.18d3931e.29621abe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First let me wish you all a very happy 2002! Now, on to my questions. I received a bottle of Iron Gall Ink for Christmas (from Paper & Ink catalog). It is fascinating stuff, it goes on the page a middle strength gray & by the time it dries it is a very intense black. While on the pen nib it is a very pale gray & does not seem to dry black on the nib. I am not sure how to make sure my nib is properly clean when I am finished. I used a soft bristled tooth brush & some mild dish soap to clean it this first time. Is that sufficient or do I need to use something different? I hope I can explain this next problem clearly. When putting the text on the page is it more appropriate to have the left hand edge of the text block square, even if it means that some of the words end up wrapping around on to the next line? Or, should I have the line end on the last word that will fit completely on the line? When I end lines based on the end of the last word that fits I often end up with a right hand edge that is full of indentations. I have noticed that manuscript examples seem to do both. Since I cannot read the Latin that seems prevalent on the pages I cannot tell if the pages with clean rectangular text blocks finish the words or if they split the words and complete them on the next line. Is there any rule which would dictate when to do either? Are the different approaches tied to particular hands, countries or periods? Did any of that make sense? Thank you for your assistance & have a great 2002! Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_bb.18d3931e.29621abe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First let me wish you all a very happy 2002!

Now, on to my questions.  I received a bottle of Iron Gall Ink for Christmas (from Paper & Ink catalog).  It is fascinating stuff, it goes on the page a middle strength gray & by the time it dries it is a very intense black.  While on the pen nib it is a very pale gray & does not seem to dry black on the nib.  I am not sure how to make sure my nib is properly clean when I am finished.  I used a soft bristled tooth brush & some mild dish soap to clean it this first time.  Is that sufficient or do I need to use something different?

I hope I can explain this next problem clearly.  When putting the text on the page is it more appropriate to have the left hand edge of the text block square, even if it means that some of the words end up wrapping around on to the next line?  Or, should I have the line end on the last word that will fit completely on the line?  When I end lines based on the end of the last word that fits I often end up with a right hand edge that is full of indentations.  I have noticed that manuscript examples seem to do both.  Since I cannot read the Latin that seems prevalent on the pages I cannot tell if the pages with clean rectangular text blocks finish the words or if they split the words and complete them on the next line.  Is there any rule which would dictate when to do either?  Are the different approaches tied to particular hands, countries or periods?  Did any of that make sense?

Thank you for your assistance & have a great 2002!

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_bb.18d3931e.29621abe_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:17:34 -0800 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: 2 questions Floriligeum@aol.com wrote: > > I hope I can explain this next problem clearly. When putting the text > on the page is it more appropriate to have the left hand edge of the > text block square, even if it means that some of the words end up > wrapping around on to the next line? Or, should I have the line end > on the last word that will fit completely on the line? When I end > lines based on the end of the last word that fits I often end up with > a right hand edge that is full of indentations. I have noticed that > manuscript examples seem to do both. Since I cannot read the Latin > that seems prevalent on the pages I cannot tell if the pages with > clean rectangular text blocks finish the words or if they split the > words and complete them on the next line. Is there any rule which > would dictate when to do either? Are the different approaches tied to > particular hands, countries or periods? Did any of that make sense? What I do is look at a couple of period examples of the hand I'm doing, and the style I want to do, and see what they do. Some hands, like Carolingian miniscule, span hundreds of years and many areas, so it's hard to say "Yes, they always did this" since "they" can change so drastically. Branwen ferch Emrys - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:57:23 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: 2 questions This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C19224.99513AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New Year's Greetings Sarra: I think you are doing fine with how you are cleaning your nibs... just = make sure they are washed well after each use. A word of warning, I = found Iron Gall Ink to not darken up on Pergamenta, so just know that = you may have to use a different ink source for that paper. I think I = used stick ink on the project I was doing on it. I think you are correct when you say: "Are the different approaches = tied to particular hands, countries or periods?" You have to look well = at the particular hand and style you are attempting to emulate. Some = used line enders to fill the spaces, some actually did a form of = hyphenation, with two thin almost diagonal slashes... and some just = planned their wording extremely well, or abbreviated to make the word = fit the line. But, line enders were used as early as The Book of Kells, = and continued up into the 14th or 15th centuries... so you could use = that technique with most any hand, I would imagine. Happy Scribing!! And Happy New Year to all. KHvS - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C19224.99513AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
New Year's=20 Greetings Sarra:
 
I think you = are doing=20 fine with how you are cleaning your nibs... just make sure they are = washed well=20 after each use.  A word of warning, I found Iron Gall Ink = to not=20 darken up on Pergamenta, so just know that you may have to use a = different=20 ink source for that paper.  I think I used stick ink on the project = I was=20 doing on it.
 
I think you = are correct=20 when you say:  "Are the different = approaches=20 tied to particular hands, countries or periods?"  You have to look well at the particular hand and style = you are=20 attempting to emulate.  Some used line enders to fill the spaces, = some=20 actually did a form of hyphenation, with two thin almost diagonal = slashes... and=20 some just planned their wording extremely well, or abbreviated to make = the word=20 fit the line.  But, line enders were used as early as The Book of = Kells,=20 and continued up into the 14th or 15th centuries... so you could use = that=20 technique with most any hand, I would = imagine.
 
Happy = Scribing!! =20 And Happy New Year to all.
 
KHvS
- ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C19224.99513AC0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: Monthly Administrivia Mailing This is the monthly mailing of the administrivia information for the scribes mailing list. [Last updated on: Thu Jul 8 21:26:10 PDT 1999] This is the scribes mailing list. It is open for discussion of scribal arts including illumination, calligraphy, paper making, etc. The posting address for scribes is "scribes@castle.org". To unsubscribe, send email to "majordomo@castle.org" with "unsubscribe scribes" in the body of the message. If you want to receive a digest version of this list, unsubscribe from scribes (see the instructions, above) and subscribe to scribes-digest instead. Problems and questions should be addressed to "scribes-owner@castle.org" as the list maintainer may or may not actually read the scribes mailing list. This mailing list is not an official list of the Society for Creative Anachronism, any College of Scribes, or the Barony of Calafia. No spam is allowed on this list. Spammers will be deleted without warning. TECHNICAL NOTE: This mailing list is set up to retain the original author's email address in the From: line. Most email programs will reply directly to the author unless you select the equivalent of "reply to all". This is done to reduce the likelihood of the embarrassing "me too" that happens all too often on mailing lists these days. There are other SCA-related mailing lists hosted @castle.org. scribes@castle.org antir_apprentices@castle.org antir_scribes@castle.org cal_cooking@castle.org caid_scribes@castle.org caid_heralds@castle.org caid_bluefeather@castle.org tanwayour@castle.org You can subscribe to them the same way you subscribed to this list. If you get this far in this message, there are two requests the list maintainer would make: 1. Please send a note of introduction to the scribes list. Say who you are, where you are, and what your scribal interests are. and 2. Please sign your notes to this list with your society name and branch, along with your mundane name and location. Enjoy! Your list maintainer is: Lord Christopher Thomas mka Lee Damon Calafia, Caid San Diego, CA =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:00:00 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: Monthly Administrivia Mailing This is the monthly mailing of the administrivia information for the scribes-digest mailing list. [Last updated on: Fri Jan 23 21:27:07 PST 1998] This is the Digest of the scribes mailing list. It is open for discussion of scribal arts including illumination, calligraphy, paper making, etc. The posting address for scribes (including the digest) is "scribes@castle.org". To unsubscribe, send email to "majordomo@castle.org" with "unsubscribe scribes-digest" in the body of the message. Problems and questions should be addressed to "scribes-owner@castle.org" as the list maintainer may or may not actually read the scribes mailing list. This mailing list is not an official list of the Society for Creative Anachronism, any College of Scribes, or the Barony of Calafia. Other SCA-related lists sponsored at castle.org are: scribes@castle.org antir_apprentices@castle.org antir_scribes@castle.org cal_cooking@castle.org caid_scribes@castle.org caid_heralds@castle.org caid_bluefeather@castle.org tanwayour@castle.org No spam is allowed on this list. Spammers will be deleted without warning. If you get this far in this message, there are two requests the list maintainer would make: 1. Please send a note of introduction to the scribes list. Say who you are, where you are, and what your scribal interests are. and 2. Please sign your notes to this list with your society name and branch, along with your mundane name and location. Enjoy! Your list maintainer is: Lord Christopher Thomas mka Lee Damon Calafia, Caid San Diego, CA =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:30:03 -0500 From: Christine Hutson Subject: [scribes]: Re: scribes digest V7 #55 On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 10:51 PM, scribes digest wrote: > > scribes digest Friday, December 28 2001 Volume 07 : > Number 055 > > Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:01:32 EST > From: EowynA@aol.com > Subject: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy > > Hello, all! > > OK, I've seen the movie of Lord of the Rings twice now. The first > time, the > excellence of the production sucked me into the created world and I was > in > utter awe. There was something about the calligraphy of the closing > credits > that bothered me, but I was so immersed in the experience that whatever > piqued me about the excellent calligraphy at the end caused but a > momentary > flash of irritation. > > The second time, I could watch and pay attention to camera angles and > the > seamless melding of what had to be two or more filmed versions of a > scene. > Still a stunning achievement, but I'm beginning to understand the logic > of > the magic of the images. And I paid attention to the beautiful uncial > calligraphy of the credits. > > Has anyone else noticed that the M's are backwards?! The thicks are on > the > bend-sinister-wise strokes (lower left to upper right) and the thins > are on > the bendwise strokes (upper left to lower right. The pen would need to > be > held quite awkwardly for this to be real. I wonder if this is computer > generated by flipping the Ws? Anyone know who did the credits > lettering? I > read the credits, but there are more words on that screen than I have > eyes to > read. > > By the way, the writing in Bilbo's book, and the elvish writing on the > ring, > and the runes in the dwarve's log book are all obviously hand done, and > beautifully. I was particularly taken with the dwarves' runes, done > with a > flat-edged pen, not a pointed one. The individual staves were shorted > from > what one normally sees carved, but thoroughly consistent with what > someone > would do when writing. Whereas, in Bilbo's book, the staves were tall, > like > they would be if one were copying something. Small details of the > lettering, > yes, but well-thought out. And while the dwarves' runes don't have the > same > letter values as the historical futhork, the principles of usage should > be > similar. Anyone know who (in the real world) did the writing in > "There and > Back Again" for Bilbo? Or the runes for the dwarves of Moria? > > Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid > (my namesake doesn't show up till next Christmas -- I can hardly wait!) > =================================================================== Greetings... Not only did Tolkien dabble in calligraphy (he wrote Elvish letters quite well), but I can tell you something interesting about that hand-written Dwarven book: at least some of it actually says what Gandalf is reading: Drums in the deep, and earlier something is written about something in the water, probably just the exact text from the Lord of the Rings books. Tolkien's angerthas letters are very systematic, making them easy to learn; I memorized them when I was 14, making it my second alphabet after English. Because he re-arranged the futhark, Tolkien's Dwarven letters make more sense than a naturally occurring alphabet (natural alphabets often evolve sloppily) There wasn't enough time for me to read much, but is in English language and Dwarven letters. I can read and write Tolkien's angerthas runes pretty well. So when they hired the scribe, they didn't hire him/her to write just gibberish...I want to see this scene frozen so I can tell if the rest of the page actually makes sense too. The DVD will come out eventually, then I'll know. I can't read Elvish letters at all (hard to memorize, they all look too similar), so I have much less of a clue about which of that writing is accurate in the movie. Lady Kris Gilibari, dabbler in many alphabets. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:49:36 -0500 From: "E. Brown" Subject: [scribes]: cleaning ooooold pens Greetings, Now aware of my new interest in calligraphy, while I was home my dad handed over a large selection of quite elderly drafting and dip pens. (Dad started his career as a civil engineer in a UK district planning office in the mid-50's; he tells me that his first task every day was to grind and mix the ink for the draftsmen. :-) Times have changed...) Some of these have been used, some are unused. Some are 'crow quills', some are more familiar wider nibs I've already used. My question is, how do I clean really old pens and nibs? Can I remove corrosion w/out damaging them? There's a couple of fillable writing pens with bladders on them. Is there a good way to test them before filling them w/ ink? All comments welcome, regards, Genevieve - -- War is God's way of teaching Americans geography. - -Ambrose Bierce, writer (1842-1914) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 06:10:26 -1000 (HST) From: Jan McEwen Subject: [scribes]: Carolingian miniscule illumination > What I do is look at a couple of period examples of the hand I'm doing, > and the style I want to do, and see what they do. Some hands, like > Carolingian miniscule, span hundreds of years and many areas, so it's > hard to say "Yes, they always did this" since "they" can change so > drastically. Carolingian miniscule is the only hand I am competent at (for now). I'm somewhat familiar with Carolingian illumination during the Carolingian period, at least in the heart of Charlemagne's empire. Are there other styles of illumination that would be appropriate with Carolingian miniscule? I once saw an example of interlace (knotwork) done with Carolingian miniscule, but haven't been able to find the example again. Catriona Stewart - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan McEwen, Urban Horticulturist, Urban Garden Center, Pearl City, Hawaii Hawaii Cooperative Extension Service University of Hawaii/College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources SCA: Catriona Stewart of the Glens, Barony of the Western Seas, Caid Internet: jmcewen@hawaii.edu =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:06:58 EST From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Scribe event in April in Atlantia! - --part1_29.20645241.2964faa2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings everyone, I am autocratting an event in April called, The Pen or the Sword? April 20, 2002 by the Barony of Marinus, Atlantia (Chesapeake, Virginia) This event is going to be a competition to find out which is mightier, the pen or the sword? There will be points for various things given for each side and by the end of the evening, we hope to tally all the points and see which side has won. I am hoping to offer a bunch of scribal classes at this event. I have eight classrooms available, but two will likely be changing rooms. So I have a lot of room for classes. What I need now are instructors willing to come and teach. Other activities will be rapier and armored combat tourney (or workshops - or both), archery tourney, a scroll competition, a scroll display, and A&S display where entrys must have something to do with one or more of the martial arts in the SCA. We will be offering a lunch for $3.00 as a fundraiser for Atlantia's new Kingdom Scribe Fund, but there will not be a feast. I am currently trying to get a block of hotel rooms and a common room at the hotel for a post revel. There is a mall a short distance from the site and several restaurants in and around the mall. I have to double check on merchants, but I think they are ok on this site. The fees are looking to be about $7.00 per adult pre-registered, but I have to finish my budget before I set that in stone. I shall be posting more details after I work out some of the kinks I have right now. So, do any of you want to come teach a class at this event? I can probably find some crash space for people and will give priority to instructors. If you would like more information, or would like to teach, please email me privately at: brndalston@aol.com and let me know the name of the class, brief discription, length (one hour or two, etc.), class fees, class size limit (if any) and if you have a preference on teaching in the morning or the afternoon. Thank you for your interest, Brandy (Lady Brandwyn Alston of the Rift, Deputy Clerk Signet, Atlantia) - --part1_29.20645241.2964faa2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings everyone,

I am autocratting an event in April called,

The Pen or the Sword?
April 20, 2002
by the Barony of Marinus, Atlantia
(Chesapeake, Virginia)

This event is going to be a competition to find out which is mightier, the pen or the sword? There will be points for various things given for each side and by the end of the evening, we hope to tally all the points and see which side has won.

I am hoping to offer a bunch of scribal classes at this event. I have eight classrooms available, but two will likely be changing rooms. So I have a lot of room for classes. What I need now are instructors willing to come and teach.

Other activities will be rapier and armored combat tourney (or workshops - or both), archery tourney, a scroll competition, a scroll display, and A&S display where entrys must have something to do with one or more of the martial arts in the SCA. We will be offering a lunch for $3.00 as a fundraiser for Atlantia's new Kingdom Scribe Fund, but there will not be a feast. I am currently trying to get a block of hotel rooms and a common room at the hotel for a post revel. There is a mall a short distance from the site and several restaurants in and around the mall. I have to double check on merchants, but I think they are ok on this site.

The fees are looking to be about $7.00 per adult pre-registered, but I have to finish my budget before I set that in stone.

I shall be posting more details after I work out some of the kinks I have right now.

So, do any of you want to come teach a class at this event? I can probably find some crash space for people and will give priority to instructors.

If you would like more information, or would like to teach, please email me privately at:
brndalston@aol.com

and let me know the name of the class, brief discription, length (one hour or two, etc.), class fees, class size limit (if any) and if you have a preference on teaching in the morning or the afternoon.

Thank you for your interest,
Brandy
(Lady Brandwyn Alston of the Rift, Deputy Clerk Signet, Atlantia) - --part1_29.20645241.2964faa2_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #57 ****************************