From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #56 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Sunday, December 30 2001 Volume 07 : Number 056 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Lukas paints Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy ~ Runes Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy ~ Runes Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy [scribes]: OT: elves, dwarves, tattoos [scribes]: Fw: LOTR Re: [scribes]: OT: elves, dwarves, tattoos Re: [scribes]: Fw: LOTR Re: [scribes]: Lukas paints Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: OT: elves, dwarves, tattoos Re: [scribes]: whitework [scribes]: finished scroll RE: [scribes]: finished scroll Berengaria's Goute Re: [scribes]: finished scroll ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:59:44 -0600 From: Gwendoline Rosamond Subject: Re: [scribes]: Lukas paints At 10:31 PM 12/28/2001 -0500, TByrnes883@aol.com wrote: >Has anyone worked with Lukas gouache's? They have appeared in the Art >Supply Warehouse catalog, at a pretty reasonable price and I was just >wondering if they are worth it. > >Timothy O'Byrne Greetings, I don't know about their gouaches but their I have no complaints with their watercolours. How good a price is it? Cheers, Gwendoline =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:41:37 +1030 From: "kat" Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy SBS had a special on LOR and TOlkien, last week. It actually showed footage of TOlkein writing elvish calligraphy himself. Now as for the books etc. I have no idea. Katerina da Brescia Lochac - ---------- > From: Cheri Nichols > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy > Date: Friday, 28 December 2001 10:34 am > > > Does anyone know who put the ink on the paper > for these? > > > > Eowyn Amberdrake =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 08:02:53 EST From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy ~ Runes Just a sidenote.... Sorry I couldn't join in on the conversations earlier about this; this whole week I've been unable to connect to the Internet... "Santa" (boyfriend) was VERY good to me this year and built me a new computer. :) The catch, however, is that the new one, for as fast as it is, and as big as it is, is not detecting my modem. Hopefully we can fix that this weekend, with the purchase of a new modem, and I'll be back online by next week.... Anyhow.... Regarding the runic in Tolkein's scripts. I've heard fairly recently a story about Baroness Arwen (yes, Arwen, like the elf in LOTR) and the runes Tolkein wrote in LoTR. Apparently the tale goes that she is very knowledgeable in runic, and realized that there were certain runes in the books that were "wrong".... and actually wrote to the author, long ere I was a walking babe. Tolkein actually wrote back to her... and told her he made it all up. Baroness Arwen probably still has that letter to this day. The point is, even if Tolkein may be fluent in runic from the earlier reference made on the list.... is that fluent in his own runic, or fluent in the real thing? Curious, ==------> Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, "Mercenary Scribe" (East) E.Frank, Long Island NY =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:35:21 -0500 From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy ~ Runes Greetings-- > The point is, even if Tolkein may be fluent in runic from the earlier > reference made on the list.... is that fluent in his own runic, or fluent in > the real thing? I suspect he's fluent in both. Middle Earth Runic, as far as I understand it, is related to Norse runic, but is not identical. I think being fluent in the original is pretty much a necessary to be able to make up your own version based on it. Nicolaa =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 01:23:55 +0800 From: Jean-Paul Blaquiere Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy > On Dec 29, kat illuminated : > SBS had a special on LOR and TOlkien, last week. It actually showed footage > of TOlkein writing elvish calligraphy himself. Now as for the books etc. I > have no idea. > did you tape it? *pray, beg, plead* ./jp - -- Jean-Paul Blaquière || Avatar of Computational japester@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au || Thaumaturgy http://japester.ucc.asn.au || verum ipsum factum "The male ego is a puppet master with a black sense of humour" =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:07:53 -0600 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy I normally just lurk around this list, feeling unworthy to clean the nibs of you fine folk. This particular subject is quite exciting, however. Have any of you ever done anything in an elven hand? It's something I've been playing around with for some time, although I'd never made any correlation between Tengwar and what is normally done in the SCA. I've always felt it was good practice for me to develop a beautifully fluid technique, and it's just fun. I've learned from all of you that any time I have pen in hand is a good time. I have the freeware program "Tengwar Scribe" which actually translates any text you input into any mode of Tengwar you choose, provided you've installed the particular font. I've got all of Dan Smiths fonts and a few others I've found as well. Using TengScribe I can then print out a "cheat sheet" to use for my inscriptions. I haven't seen the movie yet, I'm going tonight. Had to put it off until our entire gang could go as a group. I'm wearing a shirt tonight that has on the front the elven greeting "elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo", (a star shines on the hour of our meeting). If I could have found some glow-in-the-dark fabric paint I would have done the ring inscription. how cool would that be in a dark theatre. Faelen =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 15:54:00 -0500 From: "Judith Maryse" Subject: [scribes]: OT: elves, dwarves, tattoos I have been reluctant to post on this subject too much, but no one seems to mind... For those of us who wish to learn elvish (unfortunately, Tolkien didn't leave enough details of dwarvish to construct a whole language) the following websites may be of assistance: http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/ http://www.elvish.org/ For pronunciation, this site has sound bites of someone speaking elvish: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/pronmid/pronguide.html The actors got tattooed with the tengwar symbol for "nine", (Q nertë, S neder) as depicted here, not a transliteration of the english word "nine": http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~smartin/elfique/numbers_eng.htm Judith Trimaris _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:00:53 -0800 From: "Sidne Kneeland" Subject: [scribes]: Fw: LOTR A question and more info regarding LoTR: the phrase..." but is in the actual dwarven or elvish language..." IS there an actual language? Sidne And from another list: > > Suilad ! > Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo. > There are some mistakes with the scripts in the movie. It is important to remember that the movie is not an accruate interpretation of the story. The book and > the movie are very different. As far as we 'tecilquar' are concerned the most inaccrurate detail being the use of Roman (and a very poor piece of calligraphy > it is too!) letters to represent Westron (the common speach). There is no Roman letterform in Middle Earth. > > If you wish to explore the scripts used in the movie go to this site: > > http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ > > click on enter and then on "calligraphy" from the left hand menu. But the quality of the calligraphy is poor. I would suggest Tolkien's own calligraphy as a > starting point, he was a better scribe then the person used for the film (IMHO). There are also other downloads on Evlish writing systems, all very helpful, > except as models of good letterform. > > Cheers, > Graham > > > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:43:34 -0500 From: "Anthony J. Bryant" Subject: Re: [scribes]: OT: elves, dwarves, tattoos Judith Maryse wrote: > The actors got tattooed with the tengwar symbol for "nine", (Q nertë, S > neder) as depicted here, not a transliteration of the english word "nine": > http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~smartin/elfique/numbers_eng.htm Sorry, Judith, that is wrong. I think it was yesterday I posted the information about the tatoo (but with this list being the WONKY one that you have to "reply to all" it only went to one person. GOD but I hate this protocol!!!! It is the tengwa "numen" TWICE, with an "i" tehta above the first, and a dot below the second (which JRRT sez can be used to indicate a silent "e"). If you want to see the tatoo, there's a photo here: http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/graphics/elvishtatoo.jpg. A page of movie stuff is here: http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm Effingham =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:48:49 -0500 From: "Anthony J. Bryant" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Fw: LOTR Sidne Kneeland wrote: > A question and more info regarding LoTR: > > the phrase..." but is in the actual dwarven or elvish language..." > > IS there an actual language? > Good Lord, yes. There are two well-developed Elvish languages, Sindarin and Quenya (Quenya is no longer a living language -- it's the Elvish version of Latin) but JRRT also developed some Noldorin, Telerin, etc. There are other languages he created for non-Elves, like the snippets of Black Speech and Khuzdul, as well as Adunaic. If you want more info, go here: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/ Effingham =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:32:06 -0600 From: Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth Subject: Re: [scribes]: Lukas paints >Has anyone worked with Lukas gouache's? They have appeared in the Art >Supply Warehouse catalog, at a pretty reasonable price and I was just >wondering if they are worth it. > >Timothy O'Byrne Greetings, I have about 20 tubes of Lukas gouaches. When I use gouache, that's the one I currently use, though I may be switching over to M. Graham gouaches as I need to replace colors. I like them, they mix up well for me. I do find some of the colors (though I can't remember to tell you which ones, off of the top of my head) a little on the grainy/chalky side. Here in Canada, where we have to pay the exchange rate, customs, and duty, the tubes still come out to under $6.00 a tube before tax. There is only one price for the entire range, regardless of color My major complaint with Lukas (my only real complaint) is that they don't list the pigments, or lightfastness of the colors - no way to know what's in each tube. Hope this helps. Ainesleah ***************************************************************************** Mistress Hermina Matilda de Ainesleah of Meredene, OL Member # 19216 HL Robin Arthur Kyrke, Esq., Forester and Sargent Member # 28653 Barony of Castel Rouge Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Jocelyn Wirth and Greg Young excalibr@gatewest.net ****************************************************************************** =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:41:24 -0600 From: Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy >I normally just lurk around this list, feeling unworthy to clean the nibs of >you fine folk. This particular subject is quite exciting, however. Have any >of you ever done anything in an elven hand? It's something I've been playing >around with for some time, although I'd never made any correlation between >Tengwar and what is normally done in the SCA. Years ago (20 or so), before I was in the SCA, I was (and still am) a total Ring fan. While in university I taught myself the Tengwar alphabet, substituting the elvish characters for our usual arabic (English being Tolkein's "common tongue" as mentioned in the books). Even took notes in class with them, and could read them back with no problem. Alas, after years of non-use, I can no longer read what I wrote (but it looks beautiful). Time to refresh my memory I think. Ainesleah ***************************************************************************** Mistress Hermina Matilda de Ainesleah of Meredene, OL Member # 19216 HL Robin Arthur Kyrke, Esq., Forester and Sargent Member # 28653 Barony of Castel Rouge Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Jocelyn Wirth and Greg Young excalibr@gatewest.net ****************************************************************************** =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 01:44:36 -0500 From: "Judith Maryse" Subject: Re: [scribes]: OT: elves, dwarves, tattoos Did I really just reply to you? How embarrassing! Sorry about that! You'd think I'd know better by know (but this is the only list I'm on that does that)... As to the number thing; I just checked out your link of the tat. That explains the confusion. That is NOT the picture I have seen on other web sites, where thet tat is the tengwar for "nine"! (check out: http://itsb.ucsf.edu/~vcr/Spot17LOTR.html which is a funny site everyone should read anyway! or http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/3093 which looks like the same pic) So now I'm wondering; which tat is real or did they get different ones? I've seen the above picture on at least 3 different sites; one had a scanned copy of an article allegedly printed in the New Zealand paper. Judith Trimaris PS: I'm ready to end this discussion if it's annoying anyone! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:15:07 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: whitework AS far as I have been able to discern from my book collection, White Vine of a sort was common in both the pre-gothic period and the 15th Cs but the forms were different. In the examples I have, the earlier white vine was used exclusively to form capitols. The texts don't usually call it white vine at all, perhaps becuase the vines were more letter-shaped than truly vine-like, although they still had curly loops and leaves (shaped subtly different from the later forms). The background colors seem to be patchworked independantly of the shape of the vine loops - in such colors as lime green, orange-orange, and a deep madder-like rose among others. The later white vine I have seen was mostly in Italian works (I've usually heard it refered to as Italian White Vine, in fact, although I don't believe the texts specified the "Italian"). All of my 15th C examples have the vines used as borders, usually going all the way around to form a rough square or rectangle, sometimes with vertical extensions, virtually always in the blue, green, and red color scheme, with white dots in sets of three, that a prior poster described. Enid Calontir =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:35:01 EST From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: finished scroll I have just mailed out a completed award scroll for An Tir and would love any feed back the list has on it. You can find it at: http://briefcase.yahoo.com/cal3260. The first listed on the briefcase is the award, the second is the Paris Livy's page that was used for the design. It was my first real scroll, so I'm anxious for feed back. Thanks. Lady Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Raudh =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:18:58 -0500 From: AltAndreas100@netscape.net Subject: RE: [scribes]: finished scroll Berengaria's Goute Lady Asa Hrafnasdottir of Loch Raudh Absolutely beautiful! If I didn't know it to be a modern work of art it surely would fit in well with it's cousins of the distant past! I'm sure the Countess will love it! Baron Alt Andreas v. Sohren CAID- Shire of Heatherwyne Herald, Bard, and sometime scribe - -- __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:10:57 -0800 From: "Laura F. Jenkins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: finished scroll That's a fabulous scroll! I wish my early efforts looked like that. Heck, I wish my current efforts looked like that :) I like to do more squiglly lines around the leaves but there aren't a lot in your examplar so that's just a personal thing. The only suggestion I have would be to have set the calligraphy so both columns ended at about the same spot on the page. But that is really great work! I look forward to seeing your next scroll. cheers, aliskye (who really did plan to do a scroll over her (brief) x-mas vacation) :) HRAFNASDOT@aol.com wrote: > I have just mailed out a completed award scroll for An Tir and would love any > feed back the list has on it. You can find it at: > http://briefcase.yahoo.com/cal3260. The first listed on the briefcase is the > award, the second is the Paris Livy's page that was used for the design. > > It was my first real scroll, so I'm anxious for feed back. Thanks. > > Lady Asa Hrafnasdottir > Loch Raudh > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #56 ****************************