From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #55 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, December 28 2001 Volume 07 : Number 055 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: wildly expensive manuscript on ebay Re: [scribes]: wildly expensive manuscript on ebay [scribes]: whitework [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: whitework Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: whitework Re: [scribes]: whitework Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: whitework [scribes]: LotR:warning major geekiness! [scribes]: LOTR: Tolkien a scribe? Re: [scribes]: LOTR: Tolkien a scribe? Re: [scribes]: LOTR: Tolkien a scribe? Re: [scribes]: LOTR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: LOTR Calligraphy Re: [scribes]: LotR:warning major geekiness! RE: [scribes]: LOTR Calligraphy [scribes]: Lukas paints ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 19:24:38 -0700 From: "Elaine S. Fanning" Subject: [scribes]: wildly expensive manuscript on ebay Greeetings, everyone! I'm back after being dumped by the AT&T/Excite fiasco. And since I've been gone, please forgive me if this has already been discussed and I missed it. But I'm very curious about a manuscript being offered on eBay. It's item #499942188, being offered at the paltry starting price of $45,000. In the description it says, among other things, "England. c.1250 A.D. Illuminated Manuscript on Uterine Vellum, 398 leaves, 156 x 105mm, lacking several leaves after fols. 184 and 385, breaks off at end of John 14:28 Otherwise Bible is Totally Complete! This Ancient Bible Contains The Old & New Testaments with the Apocrypha! This Bible also Contains the prologues!" Several photographs are shown and some of them have very silly faces drawn inside the versals, in a way I've never seen before. It's been rebound. What do you think? Is it real? So far no one has bid on it (not too surprisingly!) If it's already been discussed on the list, I'd appreciate receiving any opinions privately. It's just my 'satiable curtiosity. Thanks much Caryn von Katzenberg Artemisia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 19:15:42 -0800 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: wildly expensive manuscript on ebay "Elaine S. Fanning" wrote: > > Several photographs are shown and some of them have very silly faces drawn > inside the versals, in a way I've never seen before. It's been rebound. > > What do you think? Is it real? So far no one has bid on it (not too > surprisingly!) If it's already been discussed on the list, I'd appreciate > receiving any opinions privately. It's just my 'satiable curtiosity. I've seen faces like that before, but I don't recall offhand where. It looks real to me, from the pictures, anyway. I wouldn't spend $45,000 sight unseen, though, and without seeing the provenance. Branwen ferch Emrys - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:14:57 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: [scribes]: whitework Dear folks, Whitework seems hard for us to pin down -- 12th century? 15th century? I suggest this is because we have picked up a term to describe a set of visual forms, without knowing how that term is used by schloars, or how it was used (if used) by people in period. Anyone want to research the term, and tell us exactly what it means? - -- Johannes v.n. "Those who don't read ... have no advantage over those who can't" -- Mark Twain =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:01:32 EST From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy Hello, all! OK, I've seen the movie of Lord of the Rings twice now. The first time, the excellence of the production sucked me into the created world and I was in utter awe. There was something about the calligraphy of the closing credits that bothered me, but I was so immersed in the experience that whatever piqued me about the excellent calligraphy at the end caused but a momentary flash of irritation. The second time, I could watch and pay attention to camera angles and the seamless melding of what had to be two or more filmed versions of a scene. Still a stunning achievement, but I'm beginning to understand the logic of the magic of the images. And I paid attention to the beautiful uncial calligraphy of the credits. Has anyone else noticed that the M's are backwards?! The thicks are on the bend-sinister-wise strokes (lower left to upper right) and the thins are on the bendwise strokes (upper left to lower right. The pen would need to be held quite awkwardly for this to be real. I wonder if this is computer generated by flipping the Ws? Anyone know who did the credits lettering? I read the credits, but there are more words on that screen than I have eyes to read. By the way, the writing in Bilbo's book, and the elvish writing on the ring, and the runes in the dwarve's log book are all obviously hand done, and beautifully. I was particularly taken with the dwarves' runes, done with a flat-edged pen, not a pointed one. The individual staves were shorted from what one normally sees carved, but thoroughly consistent with what someone would do when writing. Whereas, in Bilbo's book, the staves were tall, like they would be if one were copying something. Small details of the lettering, yes, but well-thought out. And while the dwarves' runes don't have the same letter values as the historical futhork, the principles of usage should be similar. Anyone know who (in the real world) did the writing in "There and Back Again" for Bilbo? Or the runes for the dwarves of Moria? Eowyn Amberdrake, Caid (my namesake doesn't show up till next Christmas -- I can hardly wait!) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:41:29 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: whitework >>Whitework seems hard for us to pin down -- 12th century? 15th century? I suggest this is because we have picked up a term to describe a set of visual forms, without knowing how that term is used by schloars, or how it was used (if used) by people in period. Anyone want to research the term, and tell us exactly what it means?<< mmmmm, are you confusing "white work" with "white vine" Johannes? I'm working on a white vine research project right now, so I can teach it a little later. While the style is definitely set in the 15th Century, my research so far indicates that it has its origins at least as far back as the 12th Century (and maybe the 9th if what Giles posted earlier is confirmed). Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of war. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:41:42 EST From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy In a message dated 12/27/01 9:18:35 AM, lefoxx@yahoo.com writes: << JRR. Tolkien... he's a master in every sense of the word.... Middle Earth is his creation right down to the languages, written and spoken... Nabila >> Hmm -- yes, I know that Tolkien invented the alphabets as well as the languages. I recognized the maps as the ones done by Professor Tolkien. However, it does not look like the maps were photo-transferred from the books to a larger piece of paper to use as a prop. It looks as if someone copied them onto that piece of paper. And it looks as if someone, not Tolkien (because he is no longer among the living) wrote (that is, placed ink into a pen that is then placed upon the paper) the pages of Bilbo's book and the Moria log. It is that amanuensis whose identity I seek. There are more glimpses of writing in those two places than are seen in any of Tolkien's papers, so while what we see is the hand he invented, I find it very hard to believe that his fingers were the ones that put ink to paper for the props used in the film. Does anyone know who put the ink on the paper for these? Eowyn Amberdrake =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:45:27 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: whitework > mmmmm, are you confusing "white work" with "white vine" Johannes? I'm > working on a white vine research project right now, so I can teach it a > little later. While the style is definitely set in the 15th Century, my > research so far indicates that it has its origins at least as far back as > the 12th Century (and maybe the 9th if what Giles posted earlier is > confirmed). I'll just add here that what I know as "whitework" can be seen as far back as the 12th century, as has already been mentioned here. What I understand "white vine" to be - and please correct me if I am wrong - is the delicate white on the acanthus leaves. "Whitework" - and again, correct me if I am wrong, to my interpretation means the stuff seen in what we know as "bar-and-ivy" illumination, which seems to have originated in some of the illuminations in the Paris student Bibles. At least that is my understanding of it, anyway........................... ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:02:16 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: whitework - --=====================_13486772==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:45 PM 12/27/2001 -0500, Sally Burnell wrote: > > mmmmm, are you confusing "white work" with "white vine" Johannes? I'm > > working on a white vine research project right now, so I can teach it a > > little later. While the style is definitely set in the 15th Century, my > > research so far indicates that it has its origins at least as far back as > > the 12th Century (and maybe the 9th if what Giles posted earlier is > > confirmed). > >I'll just add here that what I know as "whitework" can be seen as far back >as the 12th century, as has already been mentioned here. What I understand >"white vine" to be - and please correct me if I am wrong - is the delicate >white on the acanthus leaves. "Whitework" - and again, correct me if I am >wrong, to my interpretation means the stuff seen in what we know as >"bar-and-ivy" illumination, which seems to have originated in some of the >illuminations in the Paris student Bibles. White vine is a primarily Italian style of illumination using white vines. White work is the white painted on top of other colors. We had this discussion a while back and M KHvS was kind enough to post examples here: http://www.netusa1.net/~meistern/whitework&vine.html Smiles, Despina - --=====================_13486772==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 01:45 PM 12/27/2001 -0500, Sally Burnell wrote:
> mmmmm, are you confusing "white work" with "white vine" Johannes?  I'm
> working on a white vine research project right now, so I can teach it a
> little later.  While the style is definitely set in the 15th Century, my
> research so far indicates that it has its origins at least as far back as
> the 12th Century (and maybe the 9th if what Giles posted earlier is
> confirmed).

I'll just add here that what I know as "whitework" can be seen as far back
as the 12th century, as has already been mentioned here. What I understand
"white vine" to be - and please correct me if I am wrong - is the delicate
white on the acanthus leaves. "Whitework" - and again, correct me if I am
wrong, to my interpretation means the stuff seen in what we know as
"bar-and-ivy" illumination, which seems to have originated in some of the
illuminations in the Paris student Bibles.

White vine is a primarily Italian style of illumination using white vines. White work is the white painted on top of other colors.

We had this discussion a while back and M KHvS was kind enough to post examples here:
http://www.netusa1.net/~meistern/whitework&vine.html

Smiles,
Despina - --=====================_13486772==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:04:20 -0800 (PST) From: Cheri Nichols Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR Calligraphy > Does anyone know who put the ink on the paper for these? > > Eowyn Amberdrake Dear Eowyn, Having done scenic work for movies and commercial sets, the writing was probably done by a very observent and anal scenic technical artist. Chances are, they picked several people who had a flair for calligraphy and typestyles and told them "Make me something that looks like Tolkien did it" then they picked the best sample and had that person make a whole book. That person probably helped paint sets and sculpt and do all sorts of other artistic stuff, as well. It might be hard to find a particular individual's name. (without a few expensive long distance calls,.. Start with info for Weta in Wellington, New Zealand :-) So having said all that, most likely in the next Cinefex magazine, there will be an entire article devoted to the Master Scribe that Peter Jackson hired specifically to do the writing... :-) YIS, Chiere wreic Maredudd Trimaris =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:20:43 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: whitework This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C18F13.F5FF89C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Despina, for the kind words. I feared at first that I might = not have that up still. I need to move it quickly to my new web site, = so if it suddenly gives anyone the error message, please be patient... I = will work as quickly as I can to get it moved to the site listed below. = I am currently working on trying to get my mundane bedroom re-painted = (white over ugly brown trim is taking most of the time), but hope I will = have more time after I finally finish the project -- which is all a part = of my Christmas present to myself... an entirely new bedroom, with new = furniture as well as new paint. Since I have no significant other to = help with the work, I have to do it on weekends during the day... can't = see well enough at night to do it right. Anyway... enough babbling... You are correct, Despina, whitework (which = isn't always white -- can be yellow and red, too) is painted as a form = of shading and highlighting. Whitevine is best described as those thick = white vines that twist almost in a knot fashion inside a very = distinctive border (and in and around large versals). As others have = said, most of the time they are voided (that means not solidly painted = in at all), but that some might be (I've not yet found any examples of = these, but I trust those who say they exist). There is a lovely little = book at the Newberry Library in Chicago that has one full page = illumination in it, and it is done in whitevine. What is even more = awesome is that this book is not large!! It is maybe 5" x 8.5" in size. I've seen examples of whitework on pieces as early as the 10th century, = but can't say anything about whitevine with authority except that it was = perfected by the Florentines in the 15th century. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn (KHvS), OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin - ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C18F13.F5FF89C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you, Despina, for = the kind=20 words.  I feared at first that I might not have that up = still.  I need=20 to move it quickly to my new web site, so if it suddenly gives anyone = the error=20 message, please be patient... I will work as quickly as I can to get it = moved to=20 the site listed below.  I am currently working on trying to get my = mundane=20 bedroom re-painted (white over ugly brown trim is taking most of the=20 time), but hope I will have more time after I finally finish = the=20 project -- which is all a part of my Christmas present to myself... = an=20 entirely new bedroom, with new furniture as well as new paint.  = Since I=20 have no significant other to help with the work, I have to do it on = weekends=20 during the day... can't see well enough at night to do it right.=20 <sigh>
 
Anyway... enough = babbling... You are=20 correct, Despina, whitework (which isn't always white -- can be yellow = and red,=20 too) is painted as a form of shading and highlighting.  Whitevine = is best=20 described as those thick white vines that twist almost in a knot=20 fashion inside a very distinctive border (and in and around large=20 versals).  As others have said, most of the = time they are voided (that means not = solidly painted=20 in at all), but that some might be (I've not yet found any examples of = these,=20 but I trust those who say they exist).  There is a lovely little = book at=20 the Newberry Library in Chicago that has one full page illumination in = it, and=20 it is done in whitevine.  What is even more awesome is that this = book is=20 not large!!  It is maybe 5" x 8.5" in size.
 
I've seen examples of = whitework on=20 pieces as early as the 10th century, but can't say anything about = whitevine with=20 authority except that it was perfected by the Florentines in the 15th=20 century.
 
Meisterin Katarina = Helene von=20 Schoenborn (KHvS), OL
Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana)
Middle=20 Kingdom
http://ww1.comteck.com/~meiste= rin
- ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C18F13.F5FF89C0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:38:29 -0500 From: "Judith Maryse" Subject: [scribes]: LotR:warning major geekiness! Given how detail oriented the rest of the movie is, the chances are that not only was all the calligraphy hand done, but is in the actual dwarven or elvish language. The letters on Sting, for example, spell out the phrase "Maegnas aen estar nin - dagnir in ungul im" which translates to "Maegnas (sharp point) is my name, I am the spider's bane". They had a language expert who coached them and corrected their pronunciation. I looked around to see if I could find a reference; no luck so far. I'll keep trying! Judith Trimaris _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:34:40 EST From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: LOTR: Tolkien a scribe? My resident Tolkien expert says a majority of the stuff (maps, hand lettered items, etc.) were directly from Tolkien's stuff. Check out the original art he did - there are many collections available. He created the language and the writings - from the ground up. Even the Elven alphabet. He was known to "doodle" in it and cover notes with it. As well as being fluent in Runic. Two of the best books on his art are a Tolkien diary and "Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien". They are great to browse through. A definite scribe in his own right. He had a beautiful hand. Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:46:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Lyle H. Gray" Subject: Re: [scribes]: LOTR: Tolkien a scribe? I was annoyed at the English versions of some of the writings, which had the _tehtar_ (vowel markers) included from the Eldar scripts... - -- Lyle H. Gray GrayTech Software, Inc. http://www.graytechsoftware.com gray@cs.umass.edu On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 HRAFNASDOT@aol.com wrote: > My resident Tolkien expert says a majority of the stuff (maps, hand lettered > items, etc.) were directly from Tolkien's stuff. Check out the original art > he did - there are many collections available. He created the language and > the writings - from the ground up. Even the Elven alphabet. He was known to > "doodle" in it and cover notes with it. As well as being fluent in Runic. > Two of the best books on his art are a Tolkien diary and "Pictures by J.R.R. > Tolkien". They are great to browse through. > > A definite scribe in his own right. He had a beautiful hand. > > Asa Hrafnasdottir > Loch Ruadh > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:51:27 -0600 (CST) From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" Subject: Re: [scribes]: LOTR: Tolkien a scribe? Yes, this is true. This is what first interested me to Tolkin's books. I actually started out finding his "notebooks" that his son had collected and published some time ago. (my books got stolen so I no longer have them to ref isbn's). Once I found those I starte to read the other books but never really got into them the way I did those notebooks! :) - -- Sincerely, Chiara Francesca chiara@io.com On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 HRAFNASDOT@aol.com wrote: My resident Tolkien expert says a majority of the stuff (maps, hand lettered items, etc.) were directly from Tolkien's stuff. Check out the original art he did - there are many collections available. He created the language and the writings - from the ground up. Even the Elven alphabet. He was known to "doodle" in it and cover notes with it. As well as being fluent in Runic. Two of the best books on his art are a Tolkien diary and "Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien". They are great to browse through. A definite scribe in his own right. He had a beautiful hand. Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:25:50 EST From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: LOTR Calligraphy Hello once more, I figured that if the scribe who put ink to paper for the written props in the Lord of the Rings movie were anyone well-known or if there was a fannish connection, this group would know who it was. I was hoping that it was _not_ some nameless person in the prop, set dressing, or art departments, because that person did an excellent job of it, and I am curious who it might be. Many well-known mundane calligraphers occasionally do lettering bits for the movies. Mark van Stone did the alphabet for the movie Casper the Friendly Ghost, for instance. Baker did some awhile back. I think even Donald Jackson has done some movie titles. I tried out for one such gig, years ago, but wasn't selected for that movie. That is why I was curious if anyone knew who the scribe was. Sometimes they are even credited. And I assume that the Uncial title credits were not done by the same person that did the props, because the title credits have the backwards M, and the calligrapher who wrote most of "There and Back Again" on the "calligraphy" paper appeared to know what he was doing. You see, I am the resident Tolkien expert at my house. I thank you all for telling me and the list that the alphabets were correctly done, and in Tolkien's style. They are indeed done in the hand he created. I did not mention it, because I took that as given, recognizable by all Tolkien fans as soon as the props flash on the screen (and I see I was not mistaken in assuming there were fans on this list). The props in the movie are believable. The movie's artist did an excellent job of copying Tolkien's drawings for Bilbo's maps - I smiled when I saw them. But this confusion brings up another question or two of terminology for the broader calligraphic community. When we say Bede _wrote_ "The Ecclesiastical History" we really mean two things by the word "wrote": he created an ordering of words that convey information (he is the author), and he put his pen to vellum and made the marks upon the page (he is the scribe). In the Society's historical period, one who is not literate could still "write a book" (i.e., be the author of it), by dictating to an amanuensis (one who puts pen to paper for another). When someone in addition creates the alphabet and hand used (as Prof. Tolkien did in this case, or Bishop Cyril did for the Russians), what does it mean to ask "Who wrote this?" If it were an example of an early piece of Russian, would as many respondents answer "Bishop Cyril" I wonder, as have answered "Professor Tolkien" in this case? I'm groping towards a question, but I'm not even sure what that question is. Does this make any sense? From a puzzled Eowyn, trying to figure out why the question asked earlier got the answers it did, and fascinated by the different meanings of "write" that are getting spun into this thread of conversation =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:20:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" Subject: Re: [scribes]: LOTR Calligraphy In this case I tend to use "write" to mean "compose", and refer to the physical act of making marks on paper/parchment/body parts/walls/iced cookies as "scribing". What Asa posted I take to mean that the physical items we are talking about (the books, the maps) were created by Prof. Tolkien both as the composer and as the scribe. Please correct me if I am wrong. Also, the Elvish inscription on the Ring appears in TFotR, so it would not be difficult to scan and use. (although TFotR does say that the last entries in the book they found in Moria were made in Elvish rather than in runes...) Margaret, reading them again in prep for seeing the movie again On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 EowynA@aol.com wrote: [snip] > > But this confusion brings up another question or two of terminology for the > broader calligraphic community. > > When we say Bede _wrote_ "The Ecclesiastical History" we really mean two > things by the word "wrote": he created an ordering of words that convey > information (he is the author), and he put his pen to vellum and made the > marks upon the page (he is the scribe). In the Society's historical period, > one who is not literate could still "write a book" (i.e., be the author of > it), by dictating to an amanuensis (one who puts pen to paper for another). > > When someone in addition creates the alphabet and hand used (as Prof. Tolkien > did in this case, or Bishop Cyril did for the Russians), what does it mean to > ask "Who wrote this?" If it were an example of an early piece of Russian, > would as many respondents answer "Bishop Cyril" I wonder, as have answered > "Professor Tolkien" in this case? I'm groping towards a question, but I'm > not even sure what that question is. Does this make any sense? > > >From a puzzled Eowyn, trying to figure out why the question asked earlier got > the answers it did, and fascinated by the different meanings of "write" that > are getting spun into this thread of conversation =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:40:27 -0500 From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" Subject: Re: [scribes]: LotR:warning major geekiness! Greetings-- > Given how detail oriented the rest of the movie is, the chances are > that not only was all the calligraphy hand done, but is in the actual > dwarven or elvish language. The letters on Sting, for example, spell out the > phrase "Maegnas aen estar nin - dagnir in ungul im" which translates to > "Maegnas (sharp point) is my name, I am the spider's bane". They had a > language expert who coached them and corrected their pronunciation. Yep, I just read an interview with him-- his name is David Salo. He did the Elvish lines for the scenes with Aragorn and Arwen, as well as the wordings for weapons and any other bits and pieces they wanted. Nicolaa =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:23:15 -0500 From: "Kenric Manning" Subject: RE: [scribes]: LOTR Calligraphy I'd like to toss in my two cents here (although being Canadian its not worth a whole lot with the exchange right now :) We were lucky here in Toronto to be the only city to be able to see a large number of the props that were made for LoTR. There was a display at Castle Loma showing off everything from sketches to costumes, calligraphy to metal work. My wife and I went and were really disappointed with what we saw. It seems that the movie industry, much like the SCA, works on the 10 foot rule. The metal work wasn't great, the wood work wasn't great, and unfortunately the calligraphy wasn't great. Now having said that, all of these things looked great on screen. The only thing that we were impressed with was the glass work. Both of us being scribes, we obviously spent some time looking at the calligraphy. It looked really nice from a couple of feet away, but up close, it really doesn't stand up. I think that the average SCA scribe, with some practise in these scripts, could easily do the same job that was done for the props. I'm not trying to say that the designs were poor, or that things didn't fit right with the Tolkien dream, but the execution of most of the props left a lot to be desired. I also don't want to take away from what the artists did for this movie. I'm sure that a lot of the people who made things for this movie are very talented. However, when you are making more than 20,000 items, and you are on a tight schedule, you are only going to make things as nice as they need to be. So in my opinion, enjoy what you are looking at on the big screen, but just remember that you really aren't getting as good a look as you think you are. And for the record, I really did enjoy the movie. However, that's the last time I go to see the props on display for a movie. Kenric Manning www.lozengy.net - -----Original Message----- From: EowynA@aol.com [mailto:EowynA@aol.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 1:26 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: LOTR Calligraphy Hello once more, I figured that if the scribe who put ink to paper for the written props in the Lord of the Rings movie were anyone well-known or if there was a fannish connection, this group would know who it was. I was hoping that it was _not_ some nameless person in the prop, set dressing, or art departments, because that person did an excellent job of it, and I am curious who it might be. Many well-known mundane calligraphers occasionally do lettering bits for the movies. Mark van Stone did the alphabet for the movie Casper the Friendly Ghost, for instance. Baker did some awhile back. I think even Donald Jackson has done some movie titles. I tried out for one such gig, years ago, but wasn't selected for that movie. That is why I was curious if anyone knew who the scribe was. Sometimes they are even credited. And I assume that the Uncial title credits were not done by the same person that did the props, because the title credits have the backwards M, and the calligrapher who wrote most of "There and Back Again" on the "calligraphy" paper appeared to know what he was doing. You see, I am the resident Tolkien expert at my house. I thank you all for telling me and the list that the alphabets were correctly done, and in Tolkien's style. They are indeed done in the hand he created. I did not mention it, because I took that as given, recognizable by all Tolkien fans as soon as the props flash on the screen (and I see I was not mistaken in assuming there were fans on this list). The props in the movie are believable. The movie's artist did an excellent job of copying Tolkien's drawings for Bilbo's maps - I smiled when I saw them. But this confusion brings up another question or two of terminology for the broader calligraphic community. When we say Bede _wrote_ "The Ecclesiastical History" we really mean two things by the word "wrote": he created an ordering of words that convey information (he is the author), and he put his pen to vellum and made the marks upon the page (he is the scribe). In the Society's historical period, one who is not literate could still "write a book" (i.e., be the author of it), by dictating to an amanuensis (one who puts pen to paper for another). When someone in addition creates the alphabet and hand used (as Prof. Tolkien did in this case, or Bishop Cyril did for the Russians), what does it mean to ask "Who wrote this?" If it were an example of an early piece of Russian, would as many respondents answer "Bishop Cyril" I wonder, as have answered "Professor Tolkien" in this case? I'm groping towards a question, but I'm not even sure what that question is. Does this make any sense? From a puzzled Eowyn, trying to figure out why the question asked earlier got the answers it did, and fascinated by the different meanings of "write" that are getting spun into this thread of conversation =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:31:44 EST From: TByrnes883@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Lukas paints - --part1_97.20b0828e.295e9320_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone worked with Lukas gouache's? They have appeared in the Art Supply Warehouse catalog, at a pretty reasonable price and I was just wondering if they are worth it. Timothy O'Byrne - --part1_97.20b0828e.295e9320_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone worked with Lukas gouache's?  They have appeared in the Art Supply Warehouse catalog, at a pretty reasonable price and I was just wondering if they are worth it.

Timothy O'Byrne - --part1_97.20b0828e.295e9320_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #55 ****************************