From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #54 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, December 26 2001 Volume 07 : Number 054 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Phebus' Livre de la chasse [scribes]: Re: Italian white vine again Re: [scribes]: Re: Italian white vine again Re: [scribes]: Phebus' Livre de la chasse [scribes]: Fw: [Mid] Grinding ink... Re: [scribes]: Re: Italian white vine again ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:32:11 -0500 From: "Judith Maryse" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Phebus' Livre de la chasse I've been interested in getting a facsimile of Gaston Phoebus' book for a while; especially if it contains the text (and maybe even a translation of the text??) Among other things, I have an interest in ferrets... Anyone have an ISBN of a good copy? Judith Trimaris _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:08:25 +1100 From: Mark Calderwood Subject: [scribes]: Re: Italian white vine again Greetings Tetchubah, At 09:54 22/12/01 -0800, you wrote: >3) My sources said this style was Florentine/Central Italian. Does anyone >have a good reference with more information (like earliest examples, >schools which used this style heavily in Florence, etc.) The development of the humanist scripts and accompanying decoration was actually a northern thing, originating in the Tuscany and Veneto regions, dominated by the cities of Florence and Venice. In essence the new style caught on and spread, remaining popular in Florence and the south of Italy/Naples after other styles had come into use elsewhere. Most of the surviving manuscripts in this style are from Florence and Naples. Neo-classical motifs were more prevalent in Paduan and Venetian manuscripts. The origins of white vine can be traced to Ottonian Caroline manuscripts from the later 9th century, particularly the monastery of St Gall. (It's ironic that the revivers of the classical past and so-called antique scripts should adopt a form of decoration that was barbarian in origin.) The earliest example I know of is the earliest known alphabet book produced in Tuscany in the mid 12th century (Fitzwilliam Museum, Ms83.1972 f1, Alphabet pattern book.) Although it has Romanesque elements, it clearly shows early development of white vine. Another early example include a Treatise of Ambrose (late 12th century Northern Italy), which has a white vine twisting around a voided letter, the spaces being filled in with blue, green and yellow. More common early examples date to the early 1400's. (Refs: JJG Alexander and AC de la Mare, _The Italian Manuscripts in the Library of Major JR Abbey_ , Faber & Faber London 1969 ISBN 571 08710 8 JJG Alexander, _Medieval Illuminators and Their Methods of Work_, Yale University Press 1992 ISBN 0 300 05689 3) >BTW, I know that a long time ago we discussed whethere this style should >properly be called "white vine work" or "voided branch/vine work". Most of >the books I looked thru last night called it the former, but a Christie's >catalog that had a couple of examples used the latter. Most sources I have seen including Alexander use "white vine" or "Vermiculato" (worm-like); the Italian name is "bianchi girari". I would think that voided vine work is not technically correct as the vines are very definitely painted in, rather than left voided (a question answered by seeing some original manuscripts in this style a year or so ago). Besides, catalogues are notorious for making up misleading terminology! > Found a great late >period example of this style that was actually done using a wood block >engraving and one color (red) for the background, as well as a hand >illuminated example that had printed text. I found a very unusual example of white vine made by a Florentine scribe in the Codex Corvinianus (Hungary 1470's), the background was all black with no dots, the vines were gold, and the capital as bright green. It really was remarkably tasteless. :o) Hope this helps some, Giles far away in sweltering Lochac... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:13:34 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Italian white vine again Giles, et all, It's kinda dangerous to say that because you saw something one way that it must always have been done that way. I have seen quite a few white vine samples in museums and in photographed books and I have plenty of samples that had no white paint on the vines at all. They were made by first penciling, then fixing the pencil with pen lines (usually brown) then filling the color areas outside the pen lines only. The vines were usually shaded with light translucent brown. Keep in mind that for some periods and places the white of the parchment was considered to be as good as white. In some cases it is REALLY white. I have NO problem with calling these "white" vines, even if they are technically voided. It doesn't matter. It is just saving paint. The ones that I have seen in books that were clearly painted white vines were also shaded with similar brown, but the pen line can be black. I'd have to go back and see if I can find ones that are white painted with brown lines or voided with black lines. Different schools and tastes within a genre. Until we know why something was done in a particular place and time, it is usually better to just stop at the point where we cite a source rather than assuming it is a general truth. RanthulfR Mark Calderwood wrote: > Most sources I have seen including Alexander use "white vine" or > "Vermiculato" (worm-like); the Italian name is "bianchi girari". I would > think that voided vine work is not technically correct as the vines are > very definitely painted in, rather than left voided (a question answered by > seeing some original manuscripts in this style a year or so ago). Besides, > catalogues are notorious for making up misleading terminology! > VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 21:34:48 -0600 From: Gwendoline Rosamond Subject: Re: [scribes]: Phebus' Livre de la chasse I bought a wonderful facsimile last year. It appears to be the complete manuscript, complete with lined blank pages. It's part of the "Manuscripts in Miniature" series "The Hunting Book of Gaston Phébus" Manuscrit français 616 Paris, Bibliothèque nationale Harvey Miller Publishers ISBN 1872501974 http://www.brepols.net/catalogue/index.jsp?mpk=20295&art=31953 Unfortunately, the search function on this site only seems to work well in IE not Netscape. Cheers, Gwendoline At 06:32 PM 12/22/2001 -0500, Judith Maryse wrote: > I've been interested in getting a facsimile of Gaston Phoebus' book > for a while; especially if it contains the text (and maybe even a > translation of the text??) Among other things, I have an interest in ferrets... > Anyone have an ISBN of a good copy? > >Judith >Trimaris =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 18:35:48 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: [scribes]: Fw: [Mid] Grinding ink... My friend Master Hroar gave me permission to forward this to this list. He is a potter extraordinaire and I think some of you might be interested in what he is going to make here: Says Hroar: The other day I was looking through a book about Chinese pottery, and came across several examples of highly decorated pottery ink grinders. They intrigued me, and made me wonder how many of our C&I folks actually still grind their ink on a regular basis. I think I am gonna make a few of these, just for the challenge of it...but still I was curious. If you're interested in having him make one for you and want Hroar's e-mail address, drop me a line and I will gladly send it to you. ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:25:27 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Italian white vine again Thanks for the information,Giles. Ranthulfr is correct about not all the vines being painted, though. While some of them were painted, the Italians seem to have indulged in both either painting them or not painting them, I guess depending on the quality of the vellum and the whim of the artist. In one of the Getty's books on manuscripts, in fact, they mention in the definition of "white vine" that these usually *weren't* painted. Not sure how they came to that conclusion but since they're one of the better museum collections, I'm willing to believe that many of them weren't painted. I kind of think about half of them were and half of them weren't. While digging through my own books, several of them mentioned that white vine work actually had its origins in 12th Century manuscripts. I've found a few examples in my library of manuscripts that might be pre-cursors to white vine from the 12th century - the vinework itself isn't white, but the form of the vine work is identical and the color scheme is well (red, blue, green with white dots). I think I'm going to use these as examples of origins of the style since I unfortunately don't have the source you mentioned in my libary . Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #54 ****************************