From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #50 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, December 14 2001 Volume 07 : Number 050 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Need A Favor... (Christmas Wish List) Re: [scribes]:(Christmas Wish List) Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments [scribes]: Fw: Gemstones/minerals and radiation Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments [scribes]: Waxed Tablet Re: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet [scribes]: Neat fact. Re: [scribes]: Fw: Gemstones/minerals and radiation [scribes]: Waxed Tablet article [scribes]: deHamel's new book - Canadian Costco's [scribes]: Murthly Hours question Re: [scribes]: Murthly Hours question Re: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet article Re: [scribes]: Murthly Hours question Re: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet article Re: [scribes]: Murthly Hours question [scribes]: New at this ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:25:22 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Need A Favor... (Christmas Wish List) Greetings Kayleigh: You asked for recommendations... There is a new book out by Christopher de Hamel you might want to add to your list... it is excellent and not overly pricey, either. I got mine from Christi's in England, but found that it is now being offered at Barnes & Noble for $12 less than I paid for it.... "The Book. A History of the Bible." Published by Phaidon 2001. ISBN: 0-7148-3774-1. The book jacket says the publisher's suggested sale price as $39.95 US or 24.95 BP -- I was thinking I got it for $24.95 ... oh, well, that will teach me to look a bit closer to the invoice!! It is an EXCELLENT book, well worth every penny... it is about 1-1/4" thick, and is about 9" x 8.5" in size. He has references and pix in it back to 400 AD!! Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:01:43 -0600 From: Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth Subject: Re: [scribes]:(Christmas Wish List) >I'd like a bunch of illuminated manuscript books for Christmas this year, >and have a list from previous discussions on the scribes list at home >(somewhere). . > >I realize that this could generate a huge response, so could you please >respond privately? No, no, please respond to the list. That way those of us who haven't been on the list very long, will get a book wish list, of good, recommended books (and not spending our hard earned money on crap). I look forward to seeing book suggestions (I'm looking for stuff from the celtic schools myself). Ainesleah ***************************************************************************** Mistress Hermina Matilda de Ainesleah of Meredene, OL Member # 19216 HL Robin Arthur Kyrke, Esq., Forester of the Greenwood Member # 28653 Barony of Castel Rouge Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Jocelyn Wirth and Greg Young excalibr@gatewest.net ****************************************************************************** =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:12:19 -0700 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments > > > > Blue Vitriol > > > > This poison and reactive pigment is from Iron sulfate > > Used in late and OOP dyeing but I never heard of for painting. it's incredibly water soluable and it's also allochromatic - which means that it's worthless as a paint pigment. Blue vitriol, aka the mineral chalcanthite, aka copper sulfate pentahydrate is used these days in swimming pool maintenance and for salting winter roads around Lake Tahoe (it's environmentally nicer to the lake than rock salt). In period it was sometimes used as a poison (Bythe, _Poisons_, 1907 & 1920 editions, chap 1: history of poison). Its main uses in period were dyeing and making acid. I'm not really up on dyeing chemistry, but I presume that with those big hydrate molecules plus the sulfate molecule hanging off the mineral structure, it probably shares some of the same mordant ability as alum - but I'm guessing. As far as period acid is concerned, all three of the vitriols were used as one of the starting ingredients to make sulphuric acid (check out de re metallic for acid reciptes). Pliny (book 33, Loeb/Harvard edition) discusses blue vitriol as an eye medicine (YIPE!). Both blue and green vitriol were used in recipes to make black leather dye. > > > > Smalts Blue > > > > Brilliant, durable and refractive pigment is made from ground fused > > > > sand and finely ground cobalt coloured glass. > > The smalt I'm familair with is listed in "The Way How to Lyme" as being > the > > greyish/blue pigment from washing real lapis;IIRC. {I could be wrong, > > should prob. go look it up ;-)} As far as I can tell, all my refs which indicate that it's not smalt if it lacks cobalt. You need the cobalt itself to tint the glass blue. The blue color is due to the ground level electron spin state of Co++. Lazurite ((Na,Ca)8Al6Si6O24(S,SO4)) and its accessory minerals, calcite (CaCO3) and pyrite (FeS2) do not contain cobalt Smalt does poorly in oils (it degrades - the reason for this is not well understood, and is currently being actively researched by the conservation science community). Otherwise, it's considered a permanent pigment in other mediums. Its use dates back to the 15th century or the mid-16th century, depending on which references you're using. quick and dirty refs: Artists’ Pigments. A Handbook of Their History and Characteristics, Vol. 2: A. Roy (Ed.) Oxford University Press 1993, p. 113-130. Chemical changes in curing and ageing oil paints. J. D. J. van den Berg, K. J. van den Berg, and J. J. Boon (1999) Proceedings of the ICOM-CC 12th Triennial Meeting, 29 August - 3 September, p.248-253 Annotations to De Re Metallica, H. Hoover and L. Hoover, 1950, in: De Re Metallica, G. Agricola, Dover Publications, p.112-114. > > > > Also: Indigo mixed with white lead will yeild a blue, > > This is the most common blue seen on panel paintings and altar peices, > along with azurite and sometimes lapis It's period but it's also a fugitive color a good overall ref: Artists’ Pigments. A Handbook of Their History and Characteristics, Vol. 3: E.W. Fitzhugh (Ed.) Oxford University Press 1997, p.81-107 > Vermilion, kermes (kermesic acid), azurite, malachite, ivory black, white > lead, lead tin yellow, iron oxide, lampblack, lazurite in a mixture with > lead tin yellow forming a green pigment--- these all found in medieval > manuscripts as written.... mainly from raman microscopy. I would love to add > who these were done by, but at the time I just simply gathered this info for sounds like you were looking at the _Artists' Pigments_ series put out by the National Gallery plus Ceninni plus Theophilus ttfn, Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:36:26 -0700 From: "Eva Mehlhose" Subject: [scribes]: Fw: Gemstones/minerals and radiation Hi all my daughter is a certified gemologist and professional jeweler. I just had to ask for her input on this thread and she promptly opens up another one for me. Looks like I will have to make a wedding scroll. Now I need help. Kelly/Thuri is a viking persona, her fiance is 12th century german. Anyone? thanks Alex the scribe Aten Signet > Just thought that you should know that a variety > of gem stones are irradiated to change/improve their > color. However, it is a special type of radiation, > and it requires a long exposure (and therefor a long > "cool down" period) in order to work. Sending gems > via USPS is still perfectly safe. > On another note, Glenn asked me to marry him on > Sunday night, and I said yes. We plan to get hitched > in the fall of 2003. You can expect and invitation. > We had a great time in AZ, and I can't wait to see > you again. Love, Kelly > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:53:52 -0700 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints I've been entirely too busy at work to jump in on this discussion, despite my addiction to period pigments, their chemistry, and their toxicology. It's a bit irksome, in fact, in that I'm giving an academic talk on this subject in early January, but as yet, I have never put my notes on-line. I'll try to get that done this time around. I have a lot of stuff on this subject, and just have never gotten around to making it more available. I do have some stuff on line which discusses pigment history and pigment toxicology. My on-line stuff covers mercury, arsenic, and lead as well as some less known stuff in the poisons class notes. Most of the info I've dug up over the years can be found at: http://www.onewest.net/~no1home/vermilion.pdf http://www.onewest.net/~no1home/poison.pdf ttfn, Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:11:44 -0400 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Thanks for the info :O) Griet =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 14:57:39 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet Hi folks, Does anybody out there have any websites or information about who might be selling waxed tablets & styli and what the prices might be? Thanks, RanthulfR - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:44:45 -0600 From: "Nightwing7" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet If you find any off-list, please let us know. I find the instructions for making them fascinating but I have about as much chance of trying to do it, as I do of making my year old lab mind it's manners. :) Brenda P. - ----- Original Message ----- Subject: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet > Hi folks, > > Does anybody out there have any websites or information about who might > be selling waxed tablets & styli and what the prices might be? > > Thanks, > > RanthulfR > -- > VISIT RandyAsplund.com > To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering > to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts > > Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 > Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration > 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:53:36 EST From: DonnelShaw@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Neat fact. First let me state that the way I support my self is that I teach. Not only do I teach I teach the PreK program in the local school district. I picked up a book that told the story of Hanaka(sp). As I was reading I kept looking at the pages and realized that the artist used the same techniques I have been taught and would like to do. It thrilled me. So as a Good SCAer that I am I pointed out to the class that way the pictures were don and where that came from. So in about 13years they will be picking this out and will not remember where they learned about scrolls. It is good to plant a seed. Maili Donnel MacGregor. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:18:07 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Fw: Gemstones/minerals and radiation Hi Alex, We're talking about two different types of "radiation" here... The machines which the USPS plans to install use high-intensity electron beams - and they are NOT safe for gemstones. Ask Kelly to check the GIA web site, and she'll be able to confirm this! - -Peter- > > Just thought that you should know that a variety > > of gem stones are irradiated to change/improve their > > color. However, it is a special type of radiation, > > and it requires a long exposure (and therefor a long > > "cool down" period) in order to work. Sending gems > > via USPS is still perfectly safe. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:08:54 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet article Hi folks, Some people seem to be interested in waxed tablets, and I just found an article of interest. It is about ancient tablets rather than medieval, but still very interesting. It talks about orpiment in the beeswax to make the wax more plastic when written upon. It also talks about some of the materials used to make them. Cedar, Cypress, Boxwood, Tamarisk, Walnut, Ivory, and even Lapis! Also talks about uses. Now here's a question for you. I've been reading on the web and I have found some SCA people claiming that some styli were made from wood. However, I have yet to see a reference, and I have not seen an SCA person cite any examples of wooden styli. This leads me to believe that wood was not used for them, but it is unsubstantiated guessing to believe that. Does anybody have any knowledge one way or the other? RanthulfR - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:20:08 -0600 From: C Fearon Subject: [scribes]: deHamel's new book - Canadian Costco's This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --Boundary_(ID_S1QSthbQ6Y5XWZBTagW+jQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Greetings I picked up this book tonight (or should I saw I forced my mother to pick it up for me for Xmas) at a Costco in Winnipeg (Canada). It was only $34 CDN, or about $22 US dollars. I think the Costcos in the US carry the same stuff, so people might be able to get it there. I can't comment on the book since my mother cruelly took it away from me until the 25th, but I have been impressed with de Hamel's other books. But, if Meisterin Katarina recommends it, it must be worth the price :) Siobhan ______________ Elianora Siobhan de Cassell Barony of Castel Rouge Northshield - --Boundary_(ID_S1QSthbQ6Y5XWZBTagW+jQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Greetings

I picked up this book tonight (or should I saw I forced my mother to pick it up for me for Xmas) at a Costco in Winnipeg (Canada). It was only $34 CDN, or about $22 US dollars.

I think the Costcos in the US carry the same stuff, so people might be able to get it there.

I can't comment on the book since my mother cruelly took it away from me until the 25th, but I have been impressed with de Hamel's other books. But, if Meisterin Katarina recommends it, it must be worth the price :)

Siobhan

______________

Elianora Siobhan de Cassell
Barony of Castel Rouge
Northshield

- --Boundary_(ID_S1QSthbQ6Y5XWZBTagW+jQ)-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:11:13 -0500 From: "Judith Maryse" Subject: [scribes]: Murthly Hours question _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:33:29 -0500 From: "Judith Maryse" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Murthly Hours question oops, try again: I found the webpage for the Murthly Hours; http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/murthly/index.htm There are many minitures with ornate detailing on the gold: http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/murthly/folios/F096v.htm The text states the detailing was done by painting gold over the burnished gold, and goes on to state this was very rare. Is there a particular time this was limited to? I haven't seen any SCA scrolls with this kind of embellishment. What I have seen is SCA scrolls with "embossing" on the raised gold, but I haven't seen any periods examples of this. Anyone have some ideas? Judith Trimaris _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) From: Hrefna in heppna Subject: Re: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet article Greetings! If you are looking for a history and instructions of wax tablets, Dofinn-Hallr Morrisson and Þóra Sharptooth have writtern an interesting article. (http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/tablets.html) It doesn't site any wooden styli though, just bone and metal. If you are interested in seeing a set of wax tablets and will be near New York City, the Met have a four leaf set on display in the Byzantium section under the stairs. Hrefna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:40:56 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Murthly Hours question Judith, Stamping and scribing on the gilding are pretty common. Look closer at pieces of the 13th and 14th centuries. The Golden Age of English Manuscript Painting has several examples, and I believe you will spot some in DeHammel's History Of Illuminated Manuscripts. Sometimes a whole daiper pattern is created, and sometimes a dotted outline of the gilded areas is all that is done. RanthulfR Judith Maryse wrote: > > oops, try again: > > I found the webpage for the Murthly Hours; > http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/murthly/index.htm > > There are many minitures with ornate detailing on the gold: > http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/murthly/folios/F096v.htm > > The text states the detailing was done by painting gold over the > burnished gold, and goes on to state this was very rare. > Is there a particular time this was limited to? I haven't seen any SCA > scrolls with this kind of embellishment. What I have seen is SCA scrolls > with "embossing" on the raised gold, but I haven't seen any periods examples > of this. Anyone have some ideas? > > Judith > Trimaris > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:45:42 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Waxed Tablet article Thanks for the reply. Actually, I am quite aware of Master Dofinn's article. I noticed the mention of wooden styli, but also that lack of a citing. I know another Laurel who sells them and postulated the wooden stylus' existence without evidence, but I want actual evidence. I have actually held and measured a few genuine tablets from collections, and acquired stats on others. There is a lot of guesswork going on in the SCA, and I am trying to research this with a bit more accuracy. RanthulfR Hrefna in heppna wrote: > > Greetings! > > If you are looking for a history and instructions of > wax tablets, Dofinn-Hallr Morrisson and Þóra > Sharptooth have writtern an interesting article. > (http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/tablets.html) It > doesn't site any wooden styli though, just bone and > metal. > > If you are interested in seeing a set of wax tablets > and will be near New York City, the Met have a four > leaf set on display in the Byzantium section under the > stairs. > > Hrefna > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:54:29 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Murthly Hours question Judith: From what I could tell in the enlarged version of the specific folio you listed, and from what I have seen of this technique... "I" believe that what they mean is that they used shell gold (probably with egg yolk as binder) to paint that design on top of the burnished gold. I have seen pieces in the Visconti Hours that show traces of this type of embellishment on the gilding using black ink or paint, and in some instances, perhaps an umber paint. Most of us haven't learned how to do it competently, I would guess, and that is why it hasn't been used in the SCA yet. You could be one of the first people to try it if that is your desire!! By the way, thanks for the new manuscript site... I love them to pieces!! Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL (KHvS) Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin - ----- Original Message ----- > > I found the webpage for the Murthly Hours; > http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/murthly/index.htm > > There are many minitures with ornate detailing on the gold: > http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/murthly/folios/F096v.htm > > The text states the detailing was done by painting gold over the > burnished gold, and goes on to state this was very rare. > Is there a particular time this was limited to? I haven't seen any SCA > scrolls with this kind of embellishment. What I have seen is SCA scrolls > with "embossing" on the raised gold, but I haven't seen any periods examples > of this. Anyone have some ideas? > > > Judith > Trimaris > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:24:45 -0800 From: "Buffy Hogan" Subject: [scribes]: New at this Hello, My name is Buffy Wilkerson I have been wanting to work on doing scribe work for a long time and there is nobody to help me get started. I have done a little here and there but I was also wandering if there anybody around my area that I can contact. I live in the Longview-Kelso Washington area. If anyone help that would be great. Buffy _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #50 ****************************