From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #49 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, December 12 2001 Volume 07 : Number 049 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Re: Merouda to be Laurelled [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! [scribes]: Yay!!!!! Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments [scribes]: Need A Favor... (Christmas Wish List) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:06:58 -1000 From: "Christine Robertson" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Merouda to be Laurelled This is excellent news! Many congratulations to you, Merouda! Your web page is the best collection of scribal links I know of (oh, and your work is nice, too ;-) - --Yseult de Lacy, OL (Lochac, West) Chris Robertson Yseult de Lacy, OL Wentworth Falls Barony of Rowany NSW Australia Lochac =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 00:05:27 EST From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints - --part1_15e.5551537.29459c97_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So far I have only used the premixed W&N tubes, and since I have small children do not use any of the cadmium colors. But this fascinating discussion of selling pigments has raised a question that has not been addressed so far. If a pigment is so toxic that you should not touch it nor let it (dry) into the atmosphere you are working in then how safe is it on the page? Would not the same toxic qualities be inherent on the surface of the finished piece? IF so, then should a warning to the recipient of the finished piece be given so that they do not touch the painted surface. Yes, I know that they should not touch the surface anyway, but we have already discussed the treatment of scrolls before & know that it is a rare person who knows how valuable & delicate these works of art are. So, anyway, how toxic is the painted surface once it is dried? Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_15e.5551537.29459c97_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
So far I have only used the premixed W&N tubes, and since I have small children do not use any of the cadmium colors.  But this fascinating discussion of selling pigments has raised a question that has not been addressed so far.  If a pigment is so toxic that you should not touch it nor let it (dry) into the atmosphere you are working in then how safe is it on the page?  Would not the same toxic qualities be inherent on the surface of the finished piece?  IF so, then should a warning to the recipient of the finished piece be given so that they do not touch the painted surface.  Yes, I know that they should not touch the surface anyway, but we have already discussed the treatment of scrolls before & know that it is a rare person who knows how valuable & delicate these works of art are.  So, anyway, how toxic is the painted surface once it is dried?

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_15e.5551537.29459c97_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 22:12:37 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints Lady Sarra, This is one of the points I was trying to make a few days ago. Those of us who prepare mineral pigments should take the time to educate both scribes and potential scroll recipients. I'll readily admit that there is no way for the colormaker (nor for the scribe) to ensure that this education will be extended beyond personal contacts. Still, I think we should make the effort. The only pigments which I would be truly afraid to use, even with proper precaution, are Realgar and Orpiment. Both of these are Arsenic minerals.....and were considered dangerous even in Period. (This suggests to me that the toxicity was acute enough for Medieval painters to recognize cause and effect. "Hmmmnnn.....Ulf chewed on the tip of his brush during matins, and collapsed during vespers. Perhaps this Orpiment he was using contained vile humours?") Toxic pigments are rarely dangerous to the scroll recipient, so long as they are not ingested. Use plenty of binder with toxic colors. Don't use them on scrolls which are not likely to be matted and framed. Don't use them on scrolls which may wind up in a house with small children. Learn the difference between "toxic" and "TOXIC!" :-) - -Peter- - --- Floriligeum@aol.com wrote: > > So far I have only used the premixed W&N tubes, and since I have > small > children do not use any of the cadmium colors. But this fascinating > discussion of selling pigments has raised a question that has not > been > addressed so far. If a pigment is so toxic that you should not touch > it nor > let it (dry) into the atmosphere you are working in then how safe is > it on > the page? Would not the same toxic qualities be inherent on the > surface of > the finished piece? IF so, then should a warning to the recipient of > the > finished piece be given so that they do not touch the painted > surface. Yes, > I know that they should not touch the surface anyway, but we have > already > discussed the treatment of scrolls before & know that it is a rare > person who > knows how valuable & delicate these works of art are. So, anyway, > how toxic > is the painted surface once it is dried? > > Yours in service, > > Sarra the Lymner > > Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom > MKA Sarah Dressler > Sarra's > Florilegium > www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:56:37 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! Well, that would be because a bunch of us have been pulling for her because we think she has really shown the stuff it takes. You on the scribes' list are not the only ones who are well aware of her research, willingness to share that knowledge, and her splendid skills as an artist. I only wish I could make the event, but I am running a smaller one that same weekend (more precisely a large demo). Congratulations Merouda. I will be there in spirit. Welcome to the Order! RanthulfR Holly wrote: > > I hear that our very own Merouda Pendray (mka Elyse Boucher) has been put on > vigil to be elevated to the Order of the Laurel for C&I, at Tre-Girt-Sea's > upcoming 12th Night event. Yay Merouda!!! :-) > > :-)---Holly---<--<-@ > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:57:39 -0600 From: Julie Watkins Subject: Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! Holly wrote: > > I hear that our very own Merouda Pendray (mka Elyse Boucher) has been put on > vigil to be elevated to the Order of the Laurel for C&I, at Tre-Girt-Sea's > upcoming 12th Night event. Yay Merouda!!! :-) Huzzah! Huzzah! & thanks for posting. I knew but as we were daytripping I wouldn't be there and kept checking email yesterday for someone to say Yay! so I could say Yay!! Congratulations, Merouda! Barbary :-) :-) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:13:35 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments/toxic paints That is a remarkably good question Lady Sarra. The answer is a little gray. Once a pigment is locked into the matrix of a paint binder it becomes much safer. Something like acrylic or oil is pretty safe with whatever pigment you have (unless you smear it into cuts on your hands or eat it), however, in acrylic you should NEVER use something toxic like cadmium through an airbrush! Always use cadmium HUE for that. It is fake cadmium. The airbrush turns it back into airborn powder like you dry pigments. The actual binding with the "glue" part of the paint isn't the thing that makes it safer though. The reason the risk is reduced is because the pigment is now in a fluid, so it can't float around to be inhaled, and the dust won't be smearing around everywhere. If you spill it, you know where it is. When it dries it gets locked down on the page. Now some locks are better than others. Oil is a pretty secure medium to lock in the toxic properties, and acrylic is pretty good as well. However, water based media are less good at it. If the page gets wet from sweaty hands or you lick it, then you "might" get some exposure. But usually it is only the cat or the odd toddler that is likely to vandalize a picture this way. It isn't typically a real threat. I hope that answers the question clearly. Thanks for bringing it up! RanthulfR Floriligeum@aol.com wrote: > > So far I have only used the premixed W&N tubes, and since I have small > children do not use any of the cadmium colors. But this fascinating > discussion of selling pigments has raised a question that has not been > addressed so far. If a pigment is so toxic that you should not touch > it nor let it (dry) into the atmosphere you are working in then how > safe is it on the page? Would not the same toxic qualities be > inherent on the surface of the finished piece? IF so, then should a > warning to the recipient of the finished piece be given so that they > do not touch the painted surface. Yes, I know that they should not > touch the surface anyway, but we have already discussed the treatment > of scrolls before & know that it is a rare person who knows how > valuable & delicate these works of art are. So, anyway, how toxic is > the painted surface once it is dried? > > Yours in service, > > Sarra the Lymner > > Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom > MKA Sarah Dressler > Sarra's Florilegium > www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:25:50 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! - --=====================_665113011==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:54 PM 12/9/2001 -0500, Holly wrote: >I hear that our very own Merouda Pendray (mka Elyse Boucher) has been put on >vigil to be elevated to the Order of the Laurel for C&I, at Tre-Girt-Sea's >upcoming 12th Night event. Yay Merouda!!! :-) It's nice to see that some things are as they should be. Congratulations Merouda, it is greatly deserved. Smiles, Despina - --=====================_665113011==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 08:54 PM 12/9/2001 -0500, Holly wrote:
I hear that our very own Merouda Pendray (mka Elyse Boucher) has been put on
vigil to be elevated to the Order of the Laurel for C&I, at Tre-Girt-Sea's
upcoming 12th Night event.   Yay Merouda!!!  :-)

It's nice to see that some things are as they should be.  Congratulations Merouda, it is greatly deserved.

Smiles,
Despina - --=====================_665113011==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:35:38 -0500 From: Janice Safran Subject: [scribes]: Yay!!!!! Congrats to Marouda!!! - -- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:34:27 -0600 From: Gwendoline Rosamond Subject: Re: [scribes]: Huzzah! Now, all is as it should be for the moment. : ) Congratulations Meruda. Welcome to the order! Cheers, Gwendolien =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:36:21 -0400 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments > I would like to know the source of info for some of these: Ok, these particular ones were not from my better resource but were things that kept popping up over and over when looking up period pigments. Was hoping others here might have something to add as well :O) One problem being, when looking up various pigments, I intially was looking beyond just manuscript uses. > > > Blue Vitriol > > > This poison and reactive pigment is from Iron sulfate > Used in late and OOP dyeing but I never heard of for painting. > > > Smalts Blue > > > Brilliant, durable and refractive pigment is made from ground fused sand > > and finely ground cobalt coloured glass. > The smalt I'm familair with is listed in "The Way How to Lyme" as being the > greyish/blue pigment from washing real lapis;IIRC. {I could be wrong, should > prob. go look it up ;-)} > > > Also: Indigo mixed with white lead will yeild a blue, > This is the most common blue seen on panel paintings and altar peices, along > with azurite and sometimes lapis > > > Brown- Bistre > > > Made from burnt resinous wood, such as cherry, boiled in lye. This is > used > > > as a pigment or as a shading over other pigments. > Modernly bistre is listed as a petroleum product, and not recommended for > painting on most things; > > > Purple- Royal Tyrian Purple > > > made from the murex shellfish - -> This I know not to be very common > Probably not used in period painting, by our period the murex was on it's > way to extinction. > > > Also: whiting (calcium carbonate/chalk) was used at times where white > led > > > could not be used. > whiting was more usually used in grounds and gesso. It's not very opaque. > Thanks > Maistreas Mairi Broder > ATenveldt Vermilian (Mercury II sulfide), red lead (dilead II lead IV oxide), lead white (lead II carbonate), lapis lazuli, carbon black, Indian yellow (magnesium salt of euxanthic acid), verdigris--- identified from 16th cent. manuscripts. lead white, vermilion (mucury II sulfide), lapis lazuli, orpiment (arsenic III sulfids), realger (arsenic II sulfide), pararealgar (NOTE: yellow pigment light induced transformation product of the orange/red pigment realgar)--- 13th cent illuminations cinnabar (mercury II sulfide), madder (not definate but very possible)--pre 10th cent. Vermilion, kermes (kermesic acid), azurite, malachite, ivory black, white lead, lead tin yellow, iron oxide, lampblack, lazurite in a mixture with lead tin yellow forming a green pigment--- these all found in medieval manuscripts as written.... mainly from raman microscopy. I would love to add who these were done by, but at the time I just simply gathered this info for my own selfish wants, and neglected to the extra info, except for the meathod and manuscript source. Griet =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:14:34 EST From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Need A Favor... (Christmas Wish List) I'd like a bunch of illuminated manuscript books for Christmas this year, and have a list from previous discussions on the scribes list at home (somewhere). My mother's been bugging me for the last week or so to give her the list, but I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations. The books I am primarily interested in would relate to The Book of Durrow, Painted Prayers, and basically anything that has some good references to the batardic script in it. (Arabic illumination and Russian illumination books are also good). I realize that this could generate a huge response, so could you please respond privately? Many thanks in advance! - --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) 'Beth Frank, Long Island, NY. PS: Already owned are "A History of Medieval Manuscripts", Mark Drogin's "Medieval Calligraphy...", and 2 pocket-size illuminated manuscript books from the Met Museum of Art (NYC). Thanks again. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #49 ****************************