From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #47 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, December 7 2001 Volume 07 : Number 047 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Fw: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib [scribes]: Madresfield Hours Re: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib RE: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:38:03 -0600 From: "Muirgheal" Subject: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib Greetings good Gentles: I have a question for the list. I use the metal dip-style nibs composed (basically) of 2 pieces of metal: one to write with, and one to act as a well to hold ink. How on earth do I clean the blasted things?! Ink gets caught between the metal plates (like it should) and dries (like it shouldn't) and I can't seem to get it out. I've tried dental floss, paper towels and my fingernails. Does anyone else have any suggestions? Is this normal and unimportant and should I ignore it? Thank you! Muirgheal donn ingen Dhauid College of Windreach Midrealm _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:01:08 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments - --=====================_408041672==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Well, you asked: *sheepish grin* I have bought pigments in vials with pull up stoppers, in little baggies, and in baby food jars. I think I have always gotten quality and good product and feel that the amount of money I've spent was always good for what I got. This is particularly true, since I am not able to support myself through my art, as large jars of pigment would not be used very quickly and would take up more space than I have for my art area. With the ones in vials and baby food jars, there were markings on them that identified the toxic pigments (skull and crossbones) and that is all I feel should be needed. There was no such marking on the pigments I bought in little baggies, but I can figure out that white lead is poisonous. (If I can't, I deserve to have Darwin claim me.) As for the containers being unsafe, the baby food jars are the most safe of the three, IMO. Unless I shake the jar before opening (not likely), the pigment is at the bottom of the jar and there is a lot of room before the top; there is no 'poof' of pigment when I open the jar and none spills from the unscrewing of the top. The vials 'poof' when opened and the baggie, while not a 'poof' problem- to get the pigment out- if one taps the baggie, some of the pigment is left in the closure cracks; therefore the bag is not completely sealed and will leak some of the pigment. (Personally, I extract the pigment with a salt spoon to get around this problem.) As for safety issues on opening the containers, if someone is not wearing gloves and a mask while working with powdered pigments (as with any powder) there is a risk of inhalation and skin contact. Common sense says this and Darwin has proved it through time. (In other words, use your head.) I have not received any amount of talk or printed material on the toxicity of pigments at any time that I have bought them. However, I had read a lot on the subject before I bought my first powdered pigments and knew the dangers. I also have a husband well versed in chemistry and able to tell me which ones are toxic that aren't labeled. The only time any of the merchants offered such information (on toxicity and chemical analysis) it was in the form of a pamphlet that I would have had to buy. I have not yet been told by any merchant what pigments are period and which are not. This would be a *darned* good fact sheet for someone to write (hey Randy, you began this thread). I am fully aware that my cadmiums are not medieval and find them a pain in the butt to work with because my (wonderful) overprotective husband makes me use special containers for rinsing my brushes and I have to rinse and empty everything that has come into contact with the powder into a large container and take it to the hazardous materials people to dispose of, as cadmium in the water system is a bad thing. As for gum arabic changing the pigments (due to W&N's other stuff in the bottle); I start with either ground crystals or the drops themselves, when I use gum arabic. I do steer people to the W&N stuff, but I warn them that there is more in the bottle than just gum arabic. So I've never had that particular chemical reaction problem. I also use glair and yolk as binders on a pretty regular basis. No amount of printed material will do good unless the person buying the pigment reads it. However, handing it out at the time of purchase does absolve the seller of certain types of lawsuits. Since I don't have the time or hand strength to grind my own, I prefer to buy my pigments (and it's perfectly period); with or without the literature and in whatever containers they come. Besides, if I don't like the containers in which I purchase them, I can switch to containers I do like. Cu Drag, Despina - ---------- "Re-creation necessarily implies research before the craftwork starts. If you haven't done the research, you can create, but you cannot possibly RE-create." [Arval d'Espas Nord] - --=====================_408041672==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Well, you asked: *sheepish grin*

I have bought pigments in vials with pull up stoppers, in little baggies, and in baby food jars.  I think I have always gotten quality and good product and feel that the amount of money I've spent was always good for what I got. This is particularly true, since I am not able to support myself through my art, as large jars of pigment would not be used very quickly and would take up more space than I have for my art area.

With the ones in vials and baby food jars, there were markings on them that identified the toxic pigments (skull and crossbones) and that is all I feel should be needed.  There was no such marking on the pigments I bought in little baggies, but I can figure out that white lead is poisonous.  (If I can't, I deserve to have Darwin claim me.)

As for the containers being unsafe, the baby food jars are the most safe of the three, IMO.  Unless I shake the jar before opening (not likely), the pigment is at the bottom of the jar and there is a lot of room before the top; there is no 'poof' of pigment when I open the jar and none spills from the unscrewing of the top.  The vials 'poof' when opened and the baggie, while not a 'poof' problem- to get the pigment out- if one taps the baggie, some of the pigment is left in the closure cracks; therefore the bag is not completely sealed and will leak some of the pigment. (Personally, I extract the pigment with a salt spoon to get around this problem.)

As for safety issues on opening the containers, if someone is not wearing gloves and a mask while working with powdered pigments (as with any powder) there is a risk of inhalation and skin contact.  Common sense says this and Darwin has proved it through time. (In other words, use your head.)

I have not received any amount of talk or printed material on the toxicity of pigments at any time that I have bought them.  However, I had read a lot on the subject before I bought my first powdered pigments and knew the dangers.  I also have a husband well versed in chemistry and able to tell me which ones are toxic that aren't labeled.  The only time any of the merchants offered such information (on toxicity and chemical analysis) it was in the form of a pamphlet that I would have had to buy.

I have not yet been told by any merchant what pigments are period and which are not.  This would be a *darned* good fact sheet for someone to write (hey Randy, you began this thread).

I am fully aware that my cadmiums are not medieval and find them a pain in the butt to work with because my (wonderful) overprotective husband makes me use special containers for rinsing my brushes and I have to rinse and empty everything that has come into contact with the powder into a large container and take it to the hazardous materials people to dispose of, as cadmium in the water system is a bad thing.

As for gum arabic changing the pigments (due to W&N's other stuff in the bottle); I start with either ground crystals or the drops themselves, when I use gum arabic.  I do steer people to the W&N stuff, but I warn them that there is more in the bottle than just gum arabic. So I've never had that particular chemical reaction problem. I also use glair and yolk as binders on a pretty regular basis.

No amount of printed material will do good unless the person buying the pigment reads it.  However, handing it out at the time of purchase does absolve the seller of certain types of lawsuits.

Since I don't have the time or hand strength to grind my own, I prefer to buy my pigments (and it's perfectly period); with or without the literature and in whatever containers they come.  Besides, if I don't like the containers in which I purchase them, I can switch to containers I do like.

Cu Drag,
Despina
"Re-creation necessarily implies research before the craftwork
starts. If you haven't done the research, you can create, but you
cannot possibly RE-create." [Arval d'Espas Nord]
- --=====================_408041672==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:16:22 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments - --=====================_408955466==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:53 PM 12/6/2001 -0800, Peter Steiner wrote: >Randy, > >These are excellent questions! > >IMHO, all dry pigment should be sold in airtight containers. The >purchaser should be able to open those containers without accidentally >releasing pigment into the air. All pigment should be sold with >complete disclosure of contents, with warnings about potential >incompatibility with other colors and media, and (if necessary) with a >copy of the current Material Data Safety Sheet for the chemical. There >is no such thing as too much information. True on the last sentence, but again, the information doesn't do any good to those who don't read it. If I buy 10 colors and each comes with a full page description such as you outlined, it would take me longer to read the stuff than I want, particularly as I have 10 new toys to play with..... >Within the SCA, we should also provide as much info as possible about >the "Period" or "Modern" nature of each pigment. See my earlier post on developing a fact sheet with this information. Grand Idea. > Toxic pigments should >be sold only to responsible adults (and by this I mean scribes who will >take care to protect children, pets, and future scroll recipients!) And how does a seller discern between this type of person and someone who will leave the vials out standing open for their cat to walk through and around the house? >Question: Do you know of any major paint manufacturer who still makes >real Vermilion? Cadmium Red is, at best, a fair substitute...and >probably more dangerous than the genuine article. Not off the top of my head, but IIRC it's not exactly all over either. Cadmium red works as a substitute for me. *grin* http://www.sewanee.edu/chem/Chem&Art/Main/art2.htm has a great link to some pigment chemical reports.... Smiles, Despina ps if people could snip their posts rather than leaving entire other posts attached, those who subscribe in digest form would probably be most grateful. - --=====================_408955466==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 09:53 PM 12/6/2001 -0800, Peter Steiner wrote:
Randy,

These are excellent questions!

IMHO, all dry pigment should be sold in airtight containers.  The
purchaser should be able to open those containers without accidentally
releasing pigment into the air.  All pigment should be sold with
complete disclosure of contents, with warnings about potential
incompatibility with other colors and media, and (if necessary) with a
copy of the current Material Data Safety Sheet for the chemical.  There
is no such thing as too much information.

True on the last sentence, but again, the information doesn't do any good to those who don't read it.  If I buy 10 colors and each comes with a full page description such as you outlined, it would take me longer to read the stuff than I want, particularly as I have 10 new toys to play with.....

Within the SCA, we should also provide as much info as possible about
the "Period" or "Modern" nature of each pigment.

See my earlier post on developing a fact sheet with this information.  Grand Idea.

 Toxic pigments should
be sold only to responsible adults (and by this I mean scribes who will
take care to protect children, pets, and future scroll recipients!)

And how does a seller discern between this type of person and someone who will leave the vials out standing open for their cat to walk through and around the house?

Question:  Do you know of any major paint manufacturer who still makes
real Vermilion? Cadmium Red is, at best, a fair substitute...and
probably more dangerous than the genuine article.

Not off the top of my head, but IIRC it's not exactly all over either.  Cadmium red works as a substitute for me. *grin*

http://www.sewanee.edu/chem/Chem&Art/Main/art2.htm has a great link to some pigment chemical reports....

Smiles,
Despina

ps if people could snip their posts rather than leaving entire other posts attached, those who subscribe in digest form would probably be most grateful. - --=====================_408955466==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:40:16 -0400 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Fw: [scribes]: Selling pigments - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Higgins" To: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments > (CLIP) > I have not yet been told by any merchant what pigments are period and which > are not. This would be a *darned* good fact sheet for someone to write > (END CLIP) > > Ok, there might be somemistakes in here.... I have a proofread copy > somewhere in the house that might have additions. Some info might not be > correct as it was taken from many sources... though my favorite source was > that of a carefuly done chemical compositions of period work. > > Sorry if this was allready covered.... was on a little email vacation > > Griet > > > Black- Carbon based pigments > These can be obtained from candle or lamp black residue as well as from > burnt > charcoal of bones or wood. (ex: ivory black) > Iron Oxide > > Blue- Azorium > Made from azurite Cu3(CO3)2(OH)2 > Lazurite > Na8[Al6Si6O24]S > Blue Vitriol > This poison and reactive pigment is from Iron sulfate > Ultramarine > Made from lapis lazuli > Smalts Blue > Brilliant, durable and refractive pigment is made from ground fused sand and > finely ground cobalt coloured glass. > Also: Indigo mixed with white lead will yeild a blue, crushed seeds of > turnsole or juice made up of blue flowers stored into a clothlet or into a > lake. > > Brown- Bistre > Made from burnt resinous wood, such as cherry, boiled in lye. This is used > as a pigment or as a shading over other pigments. > Burnt and Raw Umber > These were common early pigments though I am unsure about its use in > manuscripts. (manganese and iron oxide) > > Green- Verdigris > Made from placing strips or plates of copper above a quantity of acetic acid > (vinegar), scrape off the copper or just simply soak it right in the vinegar > and heat to reduce. Add either saffron or a green plant dye. > Green Vitriol > A copper sulfate created by a reaction between nitric acid and copper. > (nitric acid and the fumes produced while making this are very poison!) > Vergaut > Made from a mixture of indigo and orpiment > Terre vert/chrysocolla > malachite/copper carbonate Cu2CO3(OH)2 > Also: lazurite mixed with lead tin yellow > green can also be extraced from plants and made into clothlets or lakes > > Red- Red Ochre > Though this pigment made from hematite, Fe2O3, was seldomly used in > manuscripts, it was still very common through the middle ages. > Vermillion > Found in its natural state as mercuric sulphide HgS > Also-- Cinnabar > Realgar > (arsenic sulfide) > ranges in oranges and reds > (breaks down in light and changes colour, see pararealgar) > Red Led (minium/sandaraca) > Made by heating white lead for several days > Red Vitriol > (Iron Sulfate) > Olchus/Membrana > Made from mixing mercuric sulfide with white lead. > Also: > Brasil wood > made from soaking wood chips in a solution of lye, wine or urine for several > hours before adding alum. Precipitate into powder and mix with gum for > paint. > Madder root, kermes, cochineal and lac (last three being bugs) > > Purple- Royal Tyrian Purple > made from the murex shellfish > Also: A somewhat common way of obtaining purple was by mixing indigo with > red pigments. Other ways included mixing azurite with brazilwood, or a > purple could be obtained from the juice of bilberries. > > White- White led (flake white) > (Lead Oxide) Made by placing lead strips over vinegar, then it removed and > the oxide is scraped off. > Also: whiting (calcium carbonate/chalk) was used at times where white led > could not be used. > > Yellow- Orpiment > As2S3 known to change colour when exposed to light (poosibly to red) as well > as break down. This course pigment was combined with yellow ochre for > smoother texture. > Yellow Ochre > seldomly used in manuscripts > Lead Tin Yellow > Pb2SnO4 > Pararealgar > This is a light-induced transformation product of realgar, though found in > midieval manuscripts, it is possible to have been originally red. > Also: Saffron (not permanent) and Weld (permanence?) lakes, and Gamboge, a > pigment from resin (indian) > > Griet > (Amanda Poirier) > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:07:10 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C17F0F.513EED40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recall that this is the list where people were concerned about whether = distilled water was legitimately medieval and whether it was ok to use = cotton or a sponge in the inkwell. So, find out how pigments were = packaged in the Middle Ages. Is there a potters guild, or perhaps = glass-blowers to make the appropriate bottles and jars? If not, = American Science & Surplus has a wonderful selection of containers at = low prices. Corinna - ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C17F0F.513EED40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I recall that this is the list where = people were=20 concerned about whether distilled water was legitimately medieval and = whether it=20 was ok to use cotton or a sponge in the inkwell.  So, find out how = pigments=20 were packaged in the Middle Ages.  Is there a potters guild, or = perhaps=20 glass-blowers to make the appropriate bottles and jars?  If not, = American=20 Science & Surplus has a wonderful selection of containers at low=20 prices.
 
Corinna
- ------=_NextPart_000_005F_01C17F0F.513EED40-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:36:19 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib I've had good luck cleaning my metal nibs with Formula 409, even in the cracks. Someone here on the list explained that 409 will dissolve the shellac that is added to a lot of inks to make them waterproof. If the ink isn't waterproof, it probably cleans out of the nibs a lot easier. But I doubt you'll be able to get *all* of the ink out of the nib. As long as it's not building up drastically, it probably won't bother your ability to use the nib at all. Some of my nibs I've been using for over a decade. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:38:19 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: [scribes]: Madresfield Hours I've got an opportunity to buy a copy of "The Madresfield Hours" by Janet Backhouse. Is anyone familiar with this facsimile? The description says that it has 50 plates, only 4 of them in color. Since the price is a little steep I'm not sure I really want this at this cost. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:20:38 -0600 From: "Margareta vanden Velde" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib I use Windex with ammonia that just melts the crusty ink right off..... Some people are sensitive to ammonia, don't know what they use. Margareta vanden Velde Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Muirgheal" To: Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib > Greetings good Gentles: > > I have a question for the list. I use the metal dip-style nibs composed > (basically) of 2 pieces of metal: one to write with, and one to act as a > well to hold ink. > > How on earth do I clean the blasted things?! Ink gets caught between the > metal plates (like it should) and dries (like it shouldn't) and I can't > seem to get it out. I've tried dental floss, paper towels and my > fingernails. > > Does anyone else have any suggestions? Is this normal and unimportant and > should I ignore it? > > Thank you! > > Muirgheal donn ingen Dhauid > College of Windreach > Midrealm > > > _____________________________________________ > Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! > http://www.MyOwnEmail.com > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:52:33 -0800 From: Shannon Yoffe Subject: RE: [scribes]: Selling pigments This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17F58.B67A4300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Corinna, I don't believe that was the root of Ranthulfr's concern, The fact of the matter is that some pigments are very toxic, especially when inhaled or ingested. So if the pigment is kept in any container that is not air tight, there is a possibility that whomever is handling the container could get very sick. If it is on their fingertips, if they touch someone else, that person has the possibility to get sick, etc. They should be handled with care, and only by people who are knowledgeable on the subject,and know how pigments should be handled. I also believe another reason for his post was to benefit those of us who strive to completely recreate the medieval manuscript, weather it be simply for a one time project, or the way in which we complete every scroll. Would you like it if you had to complete something in such a way that it was completely true to the period, and you thought that every utensil and ingredient that you had used was period, only to find out after it was completed that one of those ingredients wasn't what you thought it was? That it wasn't period? What if that project was specifically made for an A&S competition in which all the entries were supposed to be period? ...you would have done all that work for nothing! I know I definitely wouldn't be too happy. I was grateful for his concern, and I share those same concerns. Does this answer you question? In service to the dream, ~ Sorca Nuala Ni Domnahl - -----Original Message----- From: Corinna Taylor/Al Frank [mailto:uncial@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:07 AM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments I recall that this is the list where people were concerned about whether distilled water was legitimately medieval and whether it was ok to use cotton or a sponge in the inkwell. So, find out how pigments were packaged in the Middle Ages. Is there a potters guild, or perhaps glass-blowers to make the appropriate bottles and jars? If not, American Science & Surplus has a wonderful selection of containers at low prices. Corinna - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17F58.B67A4300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Corinna, I don't believe that was the root of Ranthulfr's concern, The fact of the matter is that some pigments are very toxic, especially when inhaled or ingested. So if the pigment is kept in any container that is not air tight, there is a possibility that whomever is handling the container could get very sick. If it is on their fingertips, if they touch someone else, that person has the possibility to get sick, etc. They should be handled with care, and only by people who are knowledgeable on the subject,and know how pigments should be handled.
I also believe another reason for his post was to benefit those of us who strive to completely recreate the medieval manuscript, weather it be simply for a one time project, or the way in which we complete every scroll. Would you like it if you had to complete something in such a way that it was completely true to the period, and you thought that every utensil and ingredient that you had used was period, only to find out after it was completed that one of those ingredients wasn't what you thought it was? That it wasn't period? What if that project was specifically made for an A&S competition in which all the entries were supposed to be period? ...you would have done all that work for nothing! I know I definitely wouldn't be too happy. I was grateful for his concern, and I share those same concerns. Does this answer you question?
 
In service to the dream,
  ~ Sorca Nuala Ni Domnahl
-----Original Message-----
From: Corinna Taylor/Al Frank [mailto:uncial@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:07 AM
To: scribes@castle.org
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments

I recall that this is the list where people were concerned about whether distilled water was legitimately medieval and whether it was ok to use cotton or a sponge in the inkwell.  So, find out how pigments were packaged in the Middle Ages.  Is there a potters guild, or perhaps glass-blowers to make the appropriate bottles and jars?  If not, American Science & Surplus has a wonderful selection of containers at low prices.
 
Corinna
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C17F58.B67A4300-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:47:52 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Oh, for a clean nib > How on earth do I clean the blasted things?! Ink gets caught between the > metal plates (like it should) and dries (like it shouldn't) and I can't > seem to get it out. I've tried dental floss, paper towels and my > fingernails. > > Does anyone else have any suggestions? Is this normal and unimportant and > should I ignore it? For years I have used good old fashioned isopropyl rubbing alcohol on a Q-tip to clean my nibs, then I rinse them with warm water to make sure I got all the gunk out. Works every time for me. And yes, it IS important to keep your nibs clean, and no, you should NOT ignore it! :-) ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:40:56 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Baron Master Sir RanthulfR wrote: > Of course if you were to go and buy commercial gum > arabic sold as watercolor medium, that ultramarine would be affected by > the acid that Winsor & Newtomn puts into the medium. Therefore, it would > be wise not to use that medium, but instead to use gum arabic medium > made directly from crushed crystals. Or of course you could use glair. Oh, really? This is news to me. I use W&N gum arabic with my powdered pigments. I also have crushed crystals as well, but have never really used those yet. Could you elaborate on what the deal is with W&N gum arabic, please? Thanks! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:09:15 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Y'know, as far as purchasing period pigments is concerned, here are the things that have bothered me about what I have seen at various merchants selling them, and has, as a result, prevented me from buying them: 1. Containers that seemed unsafe 2. No or too little information on toxicity and/or safe handling 3. No or too little information on the periodicity of the pigment 4. No information on potential chemical changes when mixing with various binding agents or effects on paper/parchment/vellum In short, little or no information is provided with a large majority of the stuff I have seen sold, and I consider it to be of paramount importance that the buyer be aware of what he or she is purchasing. Fortunately for me, several years ago I traveled to our neighbouring Kingdom of Ęthelmearc for their "Ęthelmearc Academy" (the equivalent here in the Midrealm is our Royal University of the Midrealm, or RUM) and took a class in Period Pigments and Modern Alternatives, taught by Lady Karana Yabokchi, mundanely known as Dr. Karen Donnelly, Ph.D., a paint chemist in the Real World. She gave us a very extensive 22 page handout that is filled to the brim with valuable information. Here is the outline of the handout: Section I: Introduction Why should artists, and others, learn about the materials they are working with? What do hazardous and toxic mean anyway? (Introduction to Basic Toxicology) Section II: Mediaeval Pigments What names have they been called in various texts? Which colours are associated with the names? Where do they come from? What are their exact chemical compositions? Section III: Modern Alternatives Which pigments in the Mediaeval palette are hazardous? What less hazardous alternatives are commercially available? Appendix 1: The Windsor and Newton Designer's Gouache Technical Information Bulletin Appendix 2: The Windsor and Newton Health and Safety Technical Information Bulletin Section IV: Precautions for all Artists Precautions to take to avoid contamination to yourself, your household and your environment. Section V: Bibliography Needless to say, this handout has been a godsend in educating me about this stuff. If you ever have a chance to take Lady Karana's class, she DOES teach it at Pennsic sometimes, so I would strongly advise taking it if she is still teaching it. The lady knows her stuff, since this is her mundane field of work. ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:58:40 EST From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments - --part1_ff.1046a1e5.2942b1b0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have found a couple of merchants who are selling pigments that do provide some information with them, but not really as much info as they should. One of those merchants sells the information in a book seperately. The packages are tiny ziploc bags and they leak powder on the outside of the bags and are really not very safe as containers. The pigments are excellent and very finely ground - the best I have seen yet - and only $1.00 for a tiny ziploc full, so are reasonably priced. I keep the ziploc's in another ziploc inside my small rubbermade box which is inside my huge scribe bin. So it is safe until I take it out to use - in my studio only, not at events unless I know the pigment is not toxic. The other merchant labels the glass vials with screw-on lids with skull and crossbones and what the toxic element is: lead, copper, chromium, mercury etc. These bottles also have the color name and list it as synthetic if it is man-made. These pigments are good quality and most are very reasonably priced. The real lapis lazuli blue is $7.00 compared to the synthetic ultramarine at $2.00 for the same amount, but the majority of colors fall in the $2.00 range. The price depends on the mineral, gem, or whatever source of the pigment. More information can be obtained from the order form/handout that is free. This handout also has information about safe handling of the pigments and how to constitute them so they will be more safe than the powder form. You can get more details from the merchant if you talk to him. I think info on the chemical composition and possible reactions would be a VERY good thing to give out with the pigments, as well as safe handling instructions. However, I would hope that someone going out to purchase powdered pigments has done some research beforehand and has at least some idea of what they are doing first. I don't think we can expect the merchants to provide every detail - a little more information would be nice - but don't go overboard with it. Afterall, part of the fun I have been having with the period pigments is researching all those details myself! Brandy - --part1_ff.1046a1e5.2942b1b0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have found a couple of merchants who are selling pigments that do provide some information with them, but not really as much info as they should. One of those merchants sells the information in a book seperately. The packages are tiny ziploc bags and they leak powder on the outside of the bags and are really not very safe as containers. The pigments are excellent and very finely ground - the best I have seen yet - and only $1.00 for a tiny ziploc full, so are reasonably priced. I keep the ziploc's in another ziploc inside my small rubbermade box which is inside my huge scribe bin. So it is safe until I take it out to use - in my studio only, not at events unless I know the pigment is not toxic.

The other merchant labels the glass vials with screw-on lids with skull and crossbones and what the toxic element is: lead, copper, chromium, mercury etc. These bottles also have the color name and list it as synthetic if it is man-made. These pigments are good quality and most are very reasonably priced. The real lapis lazuli blue is $7.00 compared to the synthetic ultramarine at $2.00 for the same amount, but the majority of colors fall in the $2.00 range. The price depends on the mineral, gem, or whatever source of the pigment. More information can be obtained from the order form/handout that is free. This handout also has information about safe handling of the pigments and how to constitute them so they will be more safe than the powder form. You can get more details from the merchant if you talk to him.

I think info on the chemical composition and possible reactions would be a VERY good thing to give out with the pigments, as well as safe handling instructions. However, I would hope that someone going out to purchase powdered pigments has done some research beforehand and has at least some idea of what they are doing first. I don't think we can expect the merchants to provide every detail - a little more information would be nice - but don't go overboard with it. Afterall, part of the fun I have been having with the period pigments is researching all those details myself!

Brandy - --part1_ff.1046a1e5.2942b1b0_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #47 ****************************