From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #46 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, December 6 2001 Volume 07 : Number 046 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: mailing scrolls Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls Re: [scribes]: Jeanne D'evreux et al [scribes]: Virus Report Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls [scribes]: couriers [was] Re:mailing scrolls Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation [scribes]: scribes guilds Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation [scribes]: scribes guilds [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:00:12 EST From: MESTECKLING@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: mailing scrolls I work at Xpedx Paper Store, and we have something called "flak jackets" That are pretty tough cardboard envelopes, up to this size. I don't know if there's a store near you, but it is an item that all the XpedX stores are requires to carry. Generally, too, it helps if you add extra postage and write something like "hand distribute" on the outside, although with that size mailing this may be have to be done anyway. Extra postage, etc., will ensure that the mailing gets sent via hand, and not through the machines at the post office, which can tear up thick or odd sized packages. Jeanne Dyfrigi =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:08:42 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls The only thing I would add to Eibhlin's wonderful method of packaging is that the paper directly on top of the scroll is glassine. This way, if humidity strikes, your gold doesn't stick to the paper that is above it. Smiles, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:55:14 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls In a message dated 12/5/2001 10:09:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, aheilvei@uiuc.edu writes: > > The only thing I would add to Eibhlin's wonderful method of packaging is > that the paper directly on top of the scroll is glassine. This way, if > humidity strikes, your gold doesn't stick to the paper that is above it. > > Smiles, > Despina Good point. If you have it, use it. If you don't have a huge sheet of glassine, plastic wrap will work as a substitute. I have unwrapped gilded scrolls that have stuck to the paper on top of them. It's a scary thing. It's not really necessary to use glassine or plastic wrap on scrolls that aren't gilded .... computer paper or tissue work fine. I used to be more anal about sending scrolls. :-) I would wrap them in glassine even if they weren't gilded and even add one of the little desiccant packets that come with in shoes, purses etc. All of the extras were more for my own peace of mind than to actually assure safe delivery. If I could have packed a small elf in there to act as a guard I would have :-) Since becoming Kingdom Signet I have had numerous scrolls delivered to me - packaged many different ways. Everything from multiple layers of paper and plastic attached to plywood to just plain manilla envelopes with a scroll inside. The only one that was affected by the trip was the one that was sent rolled up in a tube. It wouldn't stay unrolled once I unpacked it. Eventually I got it flattened and by the time it went out in court it was fine. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:12:58 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: Jeanne D'evreux et al Assuming, as I said, that I am recalling the right book... What I mean by not as well done is that the flowers looked less realistic, without as much "3-D" effect as those in Master of Mary of Burgundy, and with less detailed shading which, in MMB, give the sense of deep, soft curves to the flower petals. Instead, they looked stiff and unnatural to me, and there was less in the way of shadows on the background color to give the sense of floating above the page, although there was enough to make clear that they were intended to be basically the same style. Enid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:36:03 -0900 From: Michael Adams Subject: [scribes]: Virus Report Someone sent me a email with their email address, but it was one character off, and 40K, far as I can tell it is a VIRUS/WORM. Check it out. Got one from someone on the West Scribes list. Mike - -- Love Humor or just love to share it? Then join or send to me at Adulthumor-l@egroups.com To join then send a blank email to adulthumor-l-subscribe@egroups.com The messages are at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/adulthumor-l/message/ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:42:50 -0800 From: "Sherri & Dan" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls As a postal employee, I would suggest that when shipping scrolls, remember that they will go through sorting machines now, into large hampers, and may end up being the landing spot for a 30# box of books. Definitely mark Do Not Bend, on both sides of the piece. Place an address label inside and out. Insure it, but remember that you need a receipt or bill of sale to make a claim. If you spend the extra money and send it Express or Registered (not Certified), it will not be sent with the thousands of other scroll-munching heavy packages through the machines but will be hand carried from sender to recipient. If you do send it Express, Registered, or Insured, the recipient must be there to sign for it (difficult to do if the recipient is at work dudring business hours and the piece is addressed to one's home). It is possible for the sender to sign a waiver for the Express, but others must be signed for. Schirleah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:54:40 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Steiner Subject: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation This may be a premature warning....but it is something we'll have to consider in the future. The GIA (Gemological Institute of America) just released their preliminary test results, regarding the effect of electron beam radiation on gemstones. The precise dose of radiation which the US Post Office will soon be using to sanitize envelopes causes a profound change in the color of most gem material. I suspect that we'll find it has the same effect on mineral pigments. :-/ The most encouraging finding is that the process does not leave -any- residual radiation in either stones or metal. Neither UPS nor FedEx plans to irradiate their packages. No doubt we'll learn a lot more about this subject in the months ahead. - -Peter- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 00:59:17 EST From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls Hail... The scroll I sent out recently was an 8"x10", so fitting it into a FedEx envelope ($7.40, 2-day to semi-nearby zip code) for delivery by Friday was not a problem. This is the third or fourth time out of a grand total of 16 scrolls to-date that I have had to ship via USPS or FedEx, and although I do not mind sending them out, I wish it would certainly cost a little less or somehow be partly refunded. Not like it'll happen, though. Being one of a total of three known active scribes in my area and the only one who travels north on a regular basis does allow me to bring scrolls into the Dragonship Haven and BBM areas easily enough, however, it's rare that I get to go as far north as, say, Bergental, as I had this past weekend (total 170 miles of driving, in 2 days, one-way). Having some sort of "pony express" would certainly help, in the off chance that another scribe would be going to an event, and pass it along to another scribe (IE a Network of sorts) who could attend the long-distance event in question. Generally scrolls assigned to me have been close to both of my homes in New York and Connecticut, but there's still the occasional hike. Though I'd feel more secure delivering the piece by hand myself, knowing someone who knows someone wouldn't hurt, either. Problem with the local scribes is that they're not so local. One is busy enough to live more than an hour away, and the other literally does live more than an hour away. Anyway.... Just throwing some thoughts out... YIS, Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) E.Frank, Long Island NY PS: I wonder what gold leaf looks like if they X-ray mail these days.... In a message dated 12/05/2001 11:44:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, chevalvolant@earthlink.net writes: > As a postal employee, I would suggest that when shipping scrolls, remember > that they will go through sorting machines now, into large hampers, and may > end up being the landing spot for a 30# box of books. > > Definitely mark Do Not Bend, on both sides of the piece. Place an address > label inside and out. Insure it, but remember that you need a receipt or > bill of sale to make a claim. If you spend the extra money and send it > Express or Registered (not Certified), it will not be sent with the > thousands of other scroll-munching heavy packages through the machines but > will be hand carried from sender to recipient. > > If you do send it Express, Registered, or Insured, the recipient must be > there to sign for it (difficult to do if the recipient is at work dudring > business hours and the piece is addressed to one's home). It is possible for > the sender to sign a waiver for the Express, but others must be signed for. > > Schirleah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:08:27 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: couriers [was] Re:mailing scrolls Often when I am not going to an event I will send scrolls with a courier. It isn't necessarily a scribe, just someone who is going to the event. Before sending it off, I make sure the scroll is protected from mishap as well as the curious. ;-) Occasionally the AEthelmearc kingdom e-mail list will have posts with the subject: scroll looking for ride to --- event. Rarely does a scroll not find a ride :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:38:42 -0500 From: "E. Brown" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Peter Steiner wrote: > > This may be a premature warning....but it is something we'll have to > consider in the future. > > The GIA (Gemological Institute of America) just released their > preliminary test results, regarding the effect of electron beam > radiation on gemstones. The precise dose of radiation which the US > Post Office will soon be using to sanitize envelopes causes a profound > change in the color of most gem material. I suspect that we'll find it > has the same effect on mineral pigments. :-/ > > The most encouraging finding is that the process does not leave -any- > residual radiation in either stones or metal. > > Neither UPS nor FedEx plans to irradiate their packages. > > No doubt we'll learn a lot more about this subject in the months ahead. > > -Peter- > Greetings, Hunh? The USPS is starting to irradiate their mail? I hadn't heard about this (the Afghanistan news is dominating our newscasts, haven't heard anything about anthrax scares recently). Can you elaborate please? 'Cause where the US goes, Canada often follows... Regards, Genevieve la flechiere Caldrithig, Barony Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) - -- Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same thing. - -Margaret Chittenden, writer =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:45:07 -0700 From: "Eva Mehlhose" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls > > The scroll I sent out recently was an 8"x10", so fitting it into a FedEx > envelope ($7.40, 2-day to semi-nearby zip code) for delivery by Friday was > not a problem. This is the third or fourth time out of a grand total of 16 > scrolls to-date that I have had to ship via USPS or FedEx, and although I do > not mind sending them out, I wish it would certainly cost a little less or > somehow be partly refunded. Not like it'll happen, though. Interesting....when I was active as a scribe in East Kingdom the signet would reimburse shipping fees when presented with the invoice/receipt. Has this changed? Currently I serve as Kingdom signet for Atenveldt and in the very rare occassion that I ask someone to mail a scroll, I will reimburse their cost. Lady Alyssandra von Drachenskralle aka Alex the scribe Atenveldt =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:07:41 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Dear folks, Here is the report on the US Postal Service irradiating mail: "WASHINGTON, DC, October 24, 2001 (ENS) - The U.S. Postal Service will begin irradiating mail as of November 1 in an effort to wipe out deadly anthrax bacteria, Postmaster General Jack Potter announced today. The irradiation is part of a tough new set of measures Potter has introduced to protect postal workers and the public from anthrax in the mail." (For those outside the US: The anthrax scare began in late September, when several envelopes were sent to US Senators and TV reporters with anthrax spores inside. The envelopes appear to have contaminated postal equipment at several sorting facilities, and the contamination has spread with the mail. The death of at least one postal worker and several others has been linked to this anthrax. No other envelopes have been sent.) The full irradiation story can be read at: "http://ens.lycos.com/ens/oct2001/2001L-10-24-02.html" - -- johannes v.n. "Those who don't read ... have no advantage over those who can't" -- Mark Twain =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:14:53 EST From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:mailing scrolls - --part1_a6.1df9d0ed.29410f9d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You know, I'd never thought to ask... It's not included on the EK Scribal policy book, so naturally I assumed the cost of transport and the means of getting it there was strictly in the hands of the scribe working on the assignment. I still have the receipt from last time around here somewhere, too, though that one was an overnighter for about $11 or so. And I definitely like the idea of having a "ride board" for scrolls... Granted, living on Long Island presents a problem for me to get it further north than Connecticut, but making arrangements to ship other peoples' scrolls from this area to up that way wouldn't be such a bad idea either, or difficult, in the instance someone couldn't make it to an event up there. I'll drop Her Grace a note about the receipt, see what she has to say. Thanks! - --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) E.Frank, Long Island, NY - --part1_a6.1df9d0ed.29410f9d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You know, I'd never thought to ask... It's not included on the EK Scribal policy book, so naturally I assumed the cost of transport and the means of getting it there was strictly in the hands of the scribe working on the assignment. I still have the receipt from last time around here somewhere, too, though that one was an overnighter for about $11 or so.

And I definitely like the idea of having a "ride board" for scrolls... Granted, living on Long Island presents a problem for me to get it further north than Connecticut, but making arrangements to ship other peoples' scrolls from this area to up that way wouldn't be such a bad idea either, or difficult, in the instance someone couldn't make it to an event up there.

I'll drop Her Grace a note about the receipt, see what she has to say.
Thanks!

--Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East)
E.Frank, Long Island, NY - --part1_a6.1df9d0ed.29410f9d_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:33:56 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation I suspect that the Post Office will probably offer "non-irradiated" options for some mailings, but probably at a fairly substantial cost. One of the reasons that UPS and Fedex aren't going to this is that they always know who the sender of a package is because of their billing system. The USPS doesn't have that option since any whacko with a book of stamps can mail whatever they want without going to the post office. That's one of the reasons that you can no longer drop any package weighing more than 16 ounces into a mailbox, but have to take it to an office (that was to stop the Unabomber IIRC). My brother-in-law regularly sends very expensive jewelry thru the US mails, via Registered mail. If they try to irradiate all of that mail, he's going to be an unhappy pookie as will a lot of other jewelers. Since Registered mail has to be taken to a post office and handed to an employee, and it gets traced throughout the entire system until it's delivered, they probably won't irradiate it. But it always pays to ask the employees. I know that topaz will change color if irradiated (that's how they get blue topaz - they nuke them), but I'm not sure what other gems are affected by radiation. Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:14:48 -0500 From: Dave Nolan/Kara Westfall Subject: [scribes]: scribes guilds Greetings! My local scribes guild had it's first official business meeting recently, and in discussing things like officers, duties, and levels of membership, I wondered how other scribes guilds function. What officers are there, and what are their jobs? Do you have levels like journeyman, novice, etc.? How are these levels determined? By skill level alone, or number of scrolls completed, or both? How many active members are there at the different levels? How often do you meet? What is expected of the guild in general from your barony/shire/whatever? What generally are the functions of the guild? And so on.... I appreciate any input I can get! Chiara da Ravenna Stonemarche, East (NH) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:45:53 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation What I heard was that they were already irradiating letters to the US government offices, were PLANNING on doing so for packages to the US governement, and were CONSIDERING doing so for all mail. The irradiating detrimentally effects all food, medicines, biological samples, film, and several other other commonly mailed products, however. Knowing this, they were looking into ways to avoid irradiating any contents that couldn't be safely irradiated (perhaps a labeling system? but couldn't the bad guys just use the appropriate 'safe' labels, too?). If it goes so far as to effect gem stone color (which I thought of as pretty darn stable!), what about not just our mineral pigments, but gel inks, litho prints, egg-based mediums like glare (since food is damaged), cotton, wool, and wood products (all bioligical products, albeit not quite as sensitive as food and blood samples)? If US postal services wants to pursuade their customers to go UPS, this looks to be a good way to do it! I can't imagine them pursuading the general populace that this 'safety enhancement' is worth the risk to their packages or what is certainly going to be a jump in cost. Enid Calontir =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 14:12:56 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: scribes guilds Greetings unto Chiara da Ravenna. I am from the shire of Baile na Scolairi in the Middle Kingdom. We have a small scriptorium which meets at least once a month. The meetings can be casual get-togethers, a class on a specific topic, or work sessions to complete specific projects. There are currently about 6 active scribes in our group. With an additional 6 to 8 shire members who occasionally work on scrolls. We have no officers, rules, or rankings. The skill level of our scribes covers a full range from expert to beginner. Some of our members have produced literally hundreds of finished scrolls and scribal works. Others have completed parts of scrolls, but never worked on their own, or completed a piece from start to finish. Still others fall in between these two extremes. Our shire depends on the scribes to produce 'prize' scrolls for most activities at our events. Armored combat tourneys, rapier tourneys, A&S activities, childrens' games, etc. We also traditionally produce a number of 'blank' scrolls to be donated to the Kingdom signet's office or to the Royalty each reign. We receive award scroll assignments from the Kingdom and regional signet's office. Although we are not particularly organized, the fact that we produce a quantity of work each year has helped to define us as a 'scriptorium.' Our members often work together on projects. The work may be split between many individuals, with one person designing and laying out the scroll, another inking the pattern, a third writing the wording, and a fourth or even fifth doing painting and finishing work. Other projects are completed by a single scribe, start-to-finish. This is running a bit long, but you caught me just when I was working on an article about forming and maintaining our scriptorium for a scribal newsletter published by a nearby Barony. I hope that gives you a feel for how we work locally. Good luck with your scriptorium! Ellen of the Scholars =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:19:57 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Selling pigments The subject of buying and selling pigments recently came up between me and a couple of friends, and it has inspired me to pose some questions to the scribes of the known world. I have noticed that there are quite a few people around the SCA who are selling small amounts of dry pigment. They package them in different ways, and the pigments I have seen being sold are usually sold with little more information than a label with the color name. I am not saying this is a bad thing, and I am glad to see people helping other people to get into making their own paint, but I am wondering if it might be wise now to start encouraging better information disclosure and safer packaging. I've seen colors being sold in loose and dusty glassine envelopes, test tubes with rubber stoppers, and even baby food jars. I am wondering what packaging people have been buying color in, and what if any toxicity warnings, instructions for use, and pigment incompatibility warnings they may be getting from the seller. Do you, the consumers, feel that this information is necessary to get at time of purchase? Are those of you buying color this way getting a fair amount for the price compared to if you bought a whole jar? When you buy the colors do you know which ones are medieval and which are modern? Are the packages that you buy colors in labeled with toxicity warnings as per federal regulations? Were you automatically provided with any printed instructions that explain the safe use of the pigment powder? Did you already know how to use the color and what not to mix with it before you bought it? I am bringing these things up because I have noticed the following things: 1) Many people buy colors thinking that it is the fact that it is powder that makes it medieval, and this is not true. Mixing color with egg white, yolk, oil, or gum arabic is the medieval process, but the pigment type is another thing. 2) Most pigment sellers sell totally modern pigments and a few medieval pigments, but do not distinguish between them unless you ask. 3) Some colors being sold as medieval pigments are inappropriate for illumination, or are inappropriate for painting on a wall in fresco, but this is not explained at the table they are sold from. 4) When I have seen literature provided to explain how to handle the colors it has often seemed slight on the subject. Do people feel that they are getting enough of this information before they start? 5) I have seen pigments sold in packaging that causes the powder to be spread around the work area when it is opened because it doesn't contain well or because the method of opening may "puff" it into the air. I have always felt that screw cap jars, such as the 1/2 oz glass ones available at grocery stores, are the safe way to contain the colors. Has anybody bought colors and then discovered them to be cheap and easily gotten in larger quantities, or do people think that the small amounts commonly sold are a good value? For example, ultramarine blue is very easy to buy today. It is pretty cheap. The name and the color are medieval, and the pigment made artificially today is essentially the same as lapis powder. Of course if you were to go and buy commercial gum arabic sold as watercolor medium, that ultramarine would be affected by the acid that Winsor & Newtomn puts into the medium. Therefore, it would be wise not to use that medium, but instead to use gum arabic medium made directly from crushed crystals. Or of course you could use glair. Or, has anybody bought Veridian or a cadmium red or yellow thinking it is a medieval pigment? None of these are, but they are often sold WITH the period pigments as substitute colors. If you bought that cadmium yellow as a substitute for Orpiment, were you aware that it is ALSO very toxic? It is just easier to get than Orpiment. So, what do you all think about this? RanthulfR - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 19:41:22 -0800 From: Karen Williams Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments I've bought assorted packets of pigments and bottles of pigments, and the only thing on them is a name for the color, not anything about toxicity or how best to use them. I would love to see this information, because once I get them, I'm somewhat at a loss as to what exactly to do with them, and experimenting can waste a lot of the pigment. I also have several friends in the same predicament. Branwen ferch Emrys - -- Karen Williams branwen@ix.netcom.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:42:26 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation Lady Genevieve, Yes, the USPS is beginning to irradiate mail - with the stated intention of killing Anthrax spores. It will be a long time before enough machines can be built to supply every Post Office in the USA; but the process has begun. We've been told that only envelopes will be subjected to the sanitizing process. This begs the question, "what if a terrorist decides to send Anthrax in something other than an envelope?" (Bureaucrats don't always react sensibly to perceived threats - nor do they often count the cost before signing the check.) - -Peter- - --- "E. Brown" wrote: > Peter Steiner wrote: > > > > This may be a premature warning....but it is something we'll have > to > > consider in the future. > > > > The GIA (Gemological Institute of America) just released their > > preliminary test results, regarding the effect of electron beam > > radiation on gemstones. The precise dose of radiation which the US > > Post Office will soon be using to sanitize envelopes causes a > profound > > change in the color of most gem material. I suspect that we'll > find it > > has the same effect on mineral pigments. :-/ > > > > The most encouraging finding is that the process does not leave > -any- > > residual radiation in either stones or metal. > > > > Neither UPS nor FedEx plans to irradiate their packages. > > > > No doubt we'll learn a lot more about this subject in the months > ahead. > > > > -Peter- > > > Greetings, > > Hunh? > > The USPS is starting to irradiate their mail? I hadn't heard about > this > (the Afghanistan news is dominating our newscasts, haven't heard > anything about anthrax scares recently). > > Can you elaborate please? 'Cause where the US goes, Canada often > follows... > > Regards, > > Genevieve la flechiere > Caldrithig, Barony Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere > (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada) > > > -- > Many people hear voices when no-one is there. Some of them are > called mad and are shut up in rooms where they stare at the walls all > day. Others are called writers and they do pretty much the same > thing. > -Margaret Chittenden, writer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:03:12 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Greetings Branwen and all interested in pigments: "The Artist's Handbook of Materials and Techniques" by Ralph W. Mayer has an entire chapter, extremely long, on the chemistry of pigments, including toxicity, interactions, etc. Corinna Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:00:39 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mailing Scrolls - Electron Radiation You are correct m'lady! Registered Mail will be exempt from the radiation process. Rest assured that the jewelry industry is -very- concerned, and -very- well informed about these developments. UPS and FedEx have decided not to irradiate any of their cargo. One reason is, as you stated, that the private courier services have a good method in place with which to track both senders and recipients. The other reason that they won't be irradiating packages is that the cost is prohibitive. (Guess who's picking up the tab for the Post Office? :-) ) - -Peter- Aethelmearc - --- Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com wrote: > > I suspect that the Post Office will probably offer "non-irradiated" > options > for some mailings, but probably at a fairly substantial cost. > > One of the reasons that UPS and Fedex aren't going to this is that > they > always know who the sender of a package is because of their billing > system. > The USPS doesn't have that option since any whacko with a book of > stamps > can mail whatever they want without going to the post office. That's > one > of the reasons that you can no longer drop any package weighing more > than > 16 ounces into a mailbox, but have to take it to an office (that was > to > stop the Unabomber IIRC). > > My brother-in-law regularly sends very expensive jewelry thru the US > mails, > via Registered mail. If they try to irradiate all of that mail, he's > going > to be an unhappy pookie as will a lot of other jewelers. Since > Registered > mail has to be taken to a post office and handed to an employee, and > it > gets traced throughout the entire system until it's delivered, they > probably won't irradiate it. But it always pays to ask the > employees. I > know that topaz will change color if irradiated (that's how they get > blue > topaz - they nuke them), but I'm not sure what other gems are > affected by > radiation. > > Tetchubah > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:53:55 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Selling pigments Randy, These are excellent questions! IMHO, all dry pigment should be sold in airtight containers. The purchaser should be able to open those containers without accidentally releasing pigment into the air. All pigment should be sold with complete disclosure of contents, with warnings about potential incompatibility with other colors and media, and (if necessary) with a copy of the current Material Data Safety Sheet for the chemical. There is no such thing as too much information. Within the SCA, we should also provide as much info as possible about the "Period" or "Modern" nature of each pigment. Toxic pigments should be sold only to responsible adults (and by this I mean scribes who will take care to protect children, pets, and future scroll recipients!) Synthetic Ultramarine is indeed chemically indistinguishable from natural Lazurite....but Lazurite is only one of several minerals found in Lapis Lazuli. Genuine Ultramarine, contains, in addition to Lazurite, trace amounts of optically active Calcite and Iron Pyrite. I prefer the appearance of the genuine to the synthetic - though I freely admit that my opinion is subjective! :-) Question: Do you know of any major paint manufacturer who still makes real Vermilion? Cadmium Red is, at best, a fair substitute...and probably more dangerous than the genuine article. Thanks for starting an interesting thread! - -Pete- - --- Randy Asplund wrote: > The subject of buying and selling pigments recently came up between > me > and a couple of friends, and it has inspired me to pose some > questions > to the scribes of the known world. I have noticed that there are > quite a > few people around the SCA who are selling small amounts of dry > pigment. > They package them in different ways, and the pigments I have seen > being > sold are usually sold with little more information than a label with > the > color name. I am not saying this is a bad thing, and I am glad to see > people helping other people to get into making their own paint, but I > am > wondering if it might be wise now to start encouraging better > information disclosure and safer packaging. > > I've seen colors being sold in loose and dusty glassine envelopes, > test > tubes with rubber stoppers, and even baby food jars. I am wondering > what > packaging people have been buying color in, and what if any toxicity > warnings, instructions for use, and pigment incompatibility warnings > they may be getting from the seller. > > Do you, the consumers, feel that this information is necessary to get > at > time of purchase? > > Are those of you buying color this way getting a fair amount for the > price compared to if you bought a whole jar? When you buy the colors > do > you know which ones are medieval and which are modern? Are the > packages > that you buy colors in labeled with toxicity warnings as per federal > regulations? Were you automatically provided with any printed > instructions that explain the safe use of the pigment powder? Did you > already know how to use the color and what not to mix with it before > you > bought it? > > I am bringing these things up because I have noticed the following > things: > > 1) Many people buy colors thinking that it is the fact that it is > powder > that makes it medieval, and this is not true. Mixing color with egg > white, yolk, oil, or gum arabic is the medieval process, but the > pigment > type is another thing. > > 2) Most pigment sellers sell totally modern pigments and a few > medieval > pigments, but do not distinguish between them unless you ask. > > 3) Some colors being sold as medieval pigments are inappropriate for > illumination, or are inappropriate for painting on a wall in fresco, > but > this is not explained at the table they are sold from. > > 4) When I have seen literature provided to explain how to handle the > colors it has often seemed slight on the subject. Do people feel that > they are getting enough of this information before they start? > > 5) I have seen pigments sold in packaging that causes the powder to > be > spread around the work area when it is opened because it doesn't > contain > well or because the method of opening may "puff" it into the air. I > have > always felt that screw cap jars, such as the 1/2 oz glass ones > available > at grocery stores, are the safe way to contain the colors. > > Has anybody bought colors and then discovered them to be cheap and > easily gotten in larger quantities, or do people think that the small > amounts commonly sold are a good value? For example, ultramarine blue > is > very easy to buy today. It is pretty cheap. The name and the color > are > medieval, and the pigment made artificially today is essentially the > same as lapis powder. Of course if you were to go and buy commercial > gum > arabic sold as watercolor medium, that ultramarine would be affected > by > the acid that Winsor & Newtomn puts into the medium. Therefore, it > would > be wise not to use that medium, but instead to use gum arabic medium > made directly from crushed crystals. Or of course you could use > glair. > > Or, has anybody bought Veridian or a cadmium red or yellow thinking > it > is a medieval pigment? None of these are, but they are often sold > WITH > the period pigments as substitute colors. If you bought that cadmium > yellow as a substitute for Orpiment, were you aware that it is ALSO > very > toxic? It is just easier to get than Orpiment. > > So, what do you all think about this? > > RanthulfR > > > -- > VISIT RandyAsplund.com > To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering > to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts > > Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 > Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration > 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #46 ****************************