From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #42 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, November 28 2001 Volume 07 : Number 042 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: "fixing" mistakes [scribes]: rubric documentation Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum Re: [scribes]: "fixing" mistakes [scribes]: examples of fixed mistakes [scribes]: Vellum & a New Book(Was: Curing hides for vellum) RE: [scribes]: Vellum & a New Book(Was: Curing hides for vellum) [scribes]: Jeanne D'evreux ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 22:16:27 -0600 From: Gwendoline Rosamond Subject: Re: [scribes]: "fixing" mistakes Greetings, Is it possible to gild over it? I had an ink explosion on a scroll that already was part way done (second time too...) and found I was able to modify the illumination design slightly to cover it with gold/brass leaf. Good luck. Cheers, Gwendoline At 10:58 PM 11/22/2001 +1000, you wrote: >Hi all..... > >After finally getting my paints, finding a suitable practice text, putting >lines on the page, sketching in the illumination and even doing the actual >calligraphy, I have ruined the whole work with a blot of paint. *sigh* After >all the care I took to cover the text, etc.... I opened a new tube of paint >to have a splot of it shoot out and a good foot away, right onto the only >unprotected spot of the project. > >Hence my questions - are there any ways to minimize paint mistakes (like >splotches) after the fact? Also, are there any ways to correct calligraphy >errors? > >Thanks in advance. > >Annys ferch Llewellyn >(Dani) >Lochac - St. Florians =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 00:15:18 EST From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: rubric documentation - --part1_66.17ed0bd7.293329e6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've done a Latin translation of an award scroll in black with the English in red/rubric above. Since it was just the translating I was trying to stress, it is simple black and red with just the first letter versal in green. I was going for a plain text look. I had to do it in batarde because that is the only aduquate hand I have at the moment. My first question is: Does anyone know of a good manuscript done this way? I know I may not be able to document both rubric and batarde in the same period or manuscript, but one can hope. I will continue my search. I have an extensive illumination library, but my focus has been on illuminations/illustrating rather than calligraphy and that's where the majority of my books lie. Thanks in advance if anyone has suggestions or can point to a good example. Lady Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis. Speech is given to many, intelligence to few. - --part1_66.17ed0bd7.293329e6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've done a Latin translation of an award scroll in black with the English in red/rubric above.  Since it was just the translating I was trying to stress, it is simple black and red with just the first letter versal in green.  I was going for a plain text look.  I had to do it in batarde because that is the only aduquate hand I have at the moment.

My first question is:  Does anyone know of a good manuscript done this way?  I know I may not be able to document both rubric and batarde in the same period or manuscript, but one can hope.  I will continue my search.  I have an extensive illumination library, but my focus has been on illuminations/illustrating rather than calligraphy and that's where the majority of my books lie.

Thanks in advance if anyone has suggestions or can point to a good example.

Lady Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh
Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis.
Speech is given to many, intelligence to few.    - --part1_66.17ed0bd7.293329e6_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:28:42 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum - --=====================_9130959==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:48 AM 11/25/2001 -0500, BRNDALSTON@aol.com wrote: >Greetings all, >Since we were on the subject of vellums, I was wondering if deer hide can >make a good surface for working on? I have some hunter friends who are >willing to give me a deer hide if they get one this season. Since they use kangaroo vellum in Loach, I don't see why deer wouldn't provide a good writing surface. The problem you're going to run into is nicks in the hide, they show more on the vellum than on the fur. If the deer has had a deep wound it will show in the vellum is what I mean. >Any tips on curing a hide? Anything special that should be done to it to >make it into vellum or parchment rather than say suade? Or should I not >even try to cure deer hide myself? Haven't a clue, but it sounds like a wonderful project. http://www.dedas.com/parchment/uk/recipe.html is a website I found on the topic. It does seem to involve some things that would be considered very nasty and bad for the (person's) skin. Smiles, Despina - ---------- There are 8 levels of righteousness in Jewish tradition: 1.Giving begrudgingly 2. Giving less than you should, after being asked. 3.Giving after being asked, but giving it cheerfully. 4.Giving before being asked 5.Giving when you do not know the recipient's identity, but the recipient knows your identity 6.Giving when you know the recipient's identity, but the recipient doesn't know your identity 7.Giving when neither party knows the other's identity 8.Enabling the recipient to become self-reliant - --=====================_9130959==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 11:48 AM 11/25/2001 -0500, BRNDALSTON@aol.com wrote:
Greetings all,
Since we were on the subject of vellums, I was wondering if deer hide can make a good surface for working on? I have some hunter friends who are willing to give me a deer hide if they get one this season.

Since they use kangaroo vellum in Loach, I don't see why deer wouldn't provide a good writing surface.  The problem you're going to run into is nicks in the hide, they show more on the vellum than on the fur.  If the deer has had a deep wound it will show in the vellum is what I mean.

Any tips on curing a hide? Anything special that should be done to it to make it into vellum or parchment rather than say suade? Or should I not even try to cure deer hide myself?

Haven't a clue, but it sounds like a wonderful project.
http://www.dedas.com/parchment/uk/recipe.html is a website I found on the topic.  It does seem to involve some things that would be considered very nasty and bad for the (person's) skin.

Smiles,
Despina
There are 8 levels of righteousness in Jewish tradition:
1.Giving begrudgingly
2. Giving less than you should, after being asked.
3.Giving after being asked,  but giving it cheerfully.
4.Giving before being asked
5.Giving when you do not know the recipient's identity, but the recipient knows your identity
6.Giving when you know the recipient's identity, but the recipient doesn't know your identity
7.Giving when neither party knows the other's identity
8.Enabling the recipient to become self-reliant
- --=====================_9130959==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:57:27 -0400 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum Hey, cool site! Been looking for other sites on the topic for some time.... and for a gal who lives where animal skins and lime are abundant, this makes for a great project *smile* Griet >Haven't a clue, but it sounds like a wonderful project. >http://www.dedas.com/parchment/uk/recipe.html is a website I found on the >topic. It does seem to involve some things that would be considered very nasty >and bad for the (person's) skin. >Smiles, >Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:04:45 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum - --=====================_11294260==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:57 PM 11/26/2001 -0400, Martin Higgins wrote: >Hey, cool site! > >Been looking for other sites on the topic for some time.... and for a gal >who lives where animal skins and lime are abundant, this makes for a great >project *smile* Just went to google.com and typed in parchment making. It came up with a lot of hits, that was just the first one. Another has a video on how to make parchment for $10. I'd probably do that myself, as I am a very visual learner. Smiles, Despina - --=====================_11294260==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 12:57 PM 11/26/2001 -0400, Martin Higgins wrote:
Hey, cool site!

Been looking for other sites on the topic for some time.... and for a gal
who lives where animal skins and lime are abundant, this makes for a great
project *smile*

Just went to google.com and typed in parchment making.  It came up with a lot of hits, that was just the first one.  Another has a video on how to make parchment for $10.  I'd probably do that myself, as I am a very visual learner.

Smiles,
Despina - --=====================_11294260==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:13:13 -0700 From: "Cindy Croy" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum Hi, I'm fairly new to the scribal arts, and I was wondering. What is the difference between Vellum and Parchment??? - -Aelia the Lost Artemisia On 26 Nov 01, at 11:04, Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil wrote: > At 12:57 PM 11/26/2001 -0400, Martin Higgins wrote: > >Hey, cool site! > > > >Been looking for other sites on the topic for some time.... and for a gal > >who lives where animal skins and lime are abundant, this makes for a great > >project *smile* > > Just went to google.com and typed in parchment making. It came up with a > lot of hits, that was just the first one. Another has a video on how to > make parchment for $10. I'd probably do that myself, as I am a very visual > learner. > > Smiles, > Despina Cindy Croy Production Test Technician Juniper Systems =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:49:09 -0600 (CST) From: sburnell@raex.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Curing hides for vellum > Hi, > I'm fairly new to the scribal arts, and I was wondering. What is the > difference between Vellum and Parchment??? Vellum is specifically made from calfskin (think "veal") or lambskin, whereas parchment is made from any other substance. That's why Mediaeval monasteries frequently raised sheep and cows, among other purposes! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:30:04 -0500 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: "fixing" mistakes I didn't see an answer to part two fo the question, which was correcting calligraphy mistakes, so here are some of the things I've done. It's highly recommended to do calligraphy first, becuase it is harder to correct mistakes, and some are just impossible, but sometimes we have had to do calligraphy on illuminate blanks, and there are several things that can be done depending on the nature of the problem: Missed important letter - a period way is to sketch a little beast or deveil carrying the letter away between lines of text, or to have a little monk or gardner pushing it into place. Missed minor letter - spelling isn't a period concept, just leave it. Forgot to include the recipient's name or other important info - if space allows, add commentary to the text, either betwen lines of text or in the margin, such as ''he' refers to ...name' or 'the award is ....'. Of course, this shouldn't be the only commentary; add other explanatory notes scattered through the text (the most gracious and beautiful queen, the kingdom known as the land by the sea or whatever is appropriate, the blazon of the award, and other comments). This gives the impression that it was a planned part of the design. It is appropriate to use a later period hand and a smaller tip, as if some scholar were going back through a text that had been written before his time. Blotched ink and wrong words. See descriptions of paint corrections with the added note that it is usually best to callig the correct text over the incorrect text, using the letter forms already present to the degree possible, then scrape away only what is absolutely necessary. Then erase and burnish, This method prevents the new calligraphy from bleeding into the slightly damaged paper. Catching it as you do it. If possible, and especially if you catch it as you are doing the calligraphy, avoid actually 'correcting' the already done calligraphy. Consider rephrasing the sentence instead. Sometimes it will be a little awkward, but its better than an obvious correction or redoing the scroll. Ditto for missed sentences - consider whether it can be added later in the text. with perhaps a slight rephrasing to make it flow with the rest of the text? We all make mistakes - they don't all have to be disasters ;-) Enid Calontir, formerly Atlantia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:32:19 +0800 From: Jean-Paul Blaquiere Subject: [scribes]: examples of fixed mistakes the thread on fixing smudge/blobs et al has developed quite a few good answers. Does anyone have any pics / examples of these? particularly the little monsters dragging away letters ;) ./jp - -- Jean-Paul Blaquière || Avatar of Computational japester@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au || Thaumaturgy http://japester.ucc.asn.au || IHTFP "The male ego is a puppet master with a black sense of humour" =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:47:26 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: [scribes]: Vellum & a New Book(Was: Curing hides for vellum) Saradwen said: > Vellum is specifically made from calfskin (think "veal") or lambskin, > whereas parchment is made from any other substance. > > That's why Mediaeval monasteries frequently raised sheep and cows, > among other purposes! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm not positive, Saradwen, but I think you have part of that incorrect. Early on, calfskin was known as vellum and lambskin as parchment... but, now they have become interchangeable in our current vernacular. At least, that was how I learned it. By the way, gang, "Time Sanctified" is now out in paperback format. I purchased one from Barnes & Noble on-line (http://www.bn.com) for $22... $5.50 less than the publisher's suggested price. It is wonderful, and I think a bit different from the hardback version, as the author says in the "Note to the Second Edition": he has "...updated or amended..." to it because of some new information since the first was published. I am most impressed with it so far (I've only had it two days), and am looking forward to reading all it has to offer. The pictures are of the highest quality, and it looks as though the text is as well. Info is: ISBN: o-8076-1498-X George Braziller, publisher; Roger S. Wieck, author. Happy reading. KHvS (aka) Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:19:37 -0800 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Vellum & a New Book(Was: Curing hides for vellum) There has been a lot of controversy in the Art and History world about the original meaning of these terms, when they changed, and what the proper form is to use now. I have read somewhere that the original meaning of vellum comes from the greek root for uterine... i.e. that it was originally a very fine and rare parchment made from uterine vellum. I think this was in one of Thompsons books. He also talks about the origin of the word Parchment as being related to the greek for papyrus... i.e. Parchment is basically that which you write on. But your mileage may vary. Check out "Materials and Techniques of Medieval Painting". \ Regards, Cystennin, .... who notes that, as the Meisterin mentions, the difference is largely ignored these days, and the terms used interchangeably with a descriptive adjective appended to indicate the type: i.e. Calf Vellum vs. Sheep Vellum vs. Goat Parchment. - -----Original Message----- From: Helen Schultz [mailto:meisterin@comteck.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 6:47 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: [scribes]: Vellum & a New Book(Was: Curing hides for vellum) Saradwen said: > Vellum is specifically made from calfskin (think "veal") or lambskin, > whereas parchment is made from any other substance. > > That's why Mediaeval monasteries frequently raised sheep and cows, > among other purposes! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm not positive, Saradwen, but I think you have part of that incorrect. Early on, calfskin was known as vellum and lambskin as parchment... but, now they have become interchangeable in our current vernacular. At least, that was how I learned it. By the way, gang, "Time Sanctified" is now out in paperback format. I purchased one from Barnes & Noble on-line (http://www.bn.com) for $22... $5.50 less than the publisher's suggested price. It is wonderful, and I think a bit different from the hardback version, as the author says in the "Note to the Second Edition": he has "...updated or amended..." to it because of some new information since the first was published. I am most impressed with it so far (I've only had it two days), and am looking forward to reading all it has to offer. The pictures are of the highest quality, and it looks as though the text is as well. Info is: ISBN: o-8076-1498-X George Braziller, publisher; Roger S. Wieck, author. Happy reading. KHvS (aka) Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:23:36 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: [scribes]: Jeanne D'evreux - --=====================_95216313==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1489897804 is where one can find a good looking copy of the hours of Jeanne D'evreux. Wonderful little manuscript done mostly in grisalle. The copy they are offering is, quite frankly, in better shape than the copy I have. Current bid is $9.99, auction ends Dec. 2 Smiles, Despina - --=====================_95216313==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1489897804

is where one can find a good looking copy of the hours of Jeanne D'evreux.  Wonderful little manuscript done mostly in grisalle.  The copy they are offering is, quite frankly, in better shape than the copy I have.

Current bid is $9.99, auction ends Dec. 2

Smiles,
Despina - --=====================_95216313==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #42 ****************************