From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #35 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, November 8 2001 Volume 07 : Number 035 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: writing between the lines [scribes]: Italian white vine Re: [scribes]: Italian white vine Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold RE: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold RE: [scribes]: Shell Gold Re: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? [scribes]: CODEX AMIATINUS Re: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? Re: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold [scribes]: Cystennin's picture Re: [scribes]: Cystennin's picture RE: [scribes]: Shell Gold Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold Re: [scribes]: Cystennin's picture ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 17:31:11 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: writing between the lines Actually, I would counsel to practice with moderate speed. If you practice faster writing you will get the hands used to that. You should be lighter on the touch and your movements will flow faster. The PRACTICE and constant attention will develop the coordination to make it look good -eventually. It may look like crap for awhile, but that's part of the learning process. Learning to form the letters is fine for being done slowly though. But that is because you are teaching yourself what the shapes are, not how well you can form them. Once you have the structure learned, that's the time to start practicing faster. RanthulfR john j cash wrote: > > Dear folks, > > Ranthlfr writes, > > > I TOTALLY agree with this. Faster writing is better. Real medieval > > scribes wrote very fast. I've seen the stats on how many pages of a > > bible they would knock out in a week of writing and it is amazing. > > Sorry, but I don't remember where I read that, so I can't point to it. > > Possibly DeHammel. > > > > Speed forces habit. Habit forces consistency. > > Some of us may now ask, which is better, fast or slow? I think the answer > we have is, _practice_ slow and speed up; but don't do scrolls fast (or > slow) without practicing. > > Slow and steady provides confidence and competence; speed should follow, > forcing habit, which forces consistency. THEN do the scroll. Don't skip > the steps. > > -- johannes > > "To the Taliban from the American people: > > Give us Bin Laden, or we will take all of your women and send them to > college!" - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:03:27 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: [scribes]: Italian white vine My dear fellow scribes, I've just volunteered to teach a class on doing italian white vine illumination for our spring Collegium session. I've got a ton of good books to make slides out of showing the different variations this style can take, but I'm also planning to do a "hands on" portion in the class and give out pointers on how to tackle this style of illumination and make it less intimidating. For example, usually when I do this style of scroll I draw up some elements of interlacing that I can use to repeat the patterns over the scroll, such as a three strand braid that I can line up the top and bottoms to and draw on tracing paper to "stencil" the braid over and over again up one side. I plan to give out that tip for doing this, but what I'd like from you is your own ideas and preferences on how to design one of these scrolls. I know we've discussed this in the past but I don't have all of our email (do we have an archive somewhere?). If you've discovered a sure-fire shortcut, or a simple way to make repetitive elements, or whatever that you've used on this style before, I'd love to hear from you. The more ways I can give people to encourage them to try out this style, the better IMO. Thanks in advance, Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:35:15 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Italian white vine > I've just volunteered to teach a class on doing italian white vine > illumination for our spring Collegium session. And on a similar note, a lot of folks have been bugging me to teach a class in Gothic whitework, seeing as how they seem to regard this as being my "specialty". I'd like to do this, but am lacking for some good ideas as to how to do this. Should I just paint some bars of blue and red a la "bar-and-ivy" style and then let folks try doing whitework, or what? Of course, I would show them how to do it, like how to get the paint consistency just right so that it works and such, but I wonder -- how do you teach something like that which is so tactile, at least to me? How do I explain how much pressure you apply to make the whitework nice and fine? See, when I do it, I just "feel" it and know when it's the right amount of pressure using my little 4/0 Sceptre Gold paintbrush, but then, I've been doing this for so long now that it's second nature to me. Any ideas or suggestions would be most welcome! Thanks tons, dear scribes! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:00:28 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold Chiara, just two more points. First, it will help a lot if the ultramarine being painted onto is waterproof, or at least reasonably water resistant. Either an egg binder (glair or yolk) with powdered pigment, or glair added to gouache or watercolour, will help. Second, it might be easier to apply the gold with a fine brush rather than a pen. And a quill will work better than a steel nib. Corinna Midrealm - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Nolan/Kara Westfall" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold > -=>Am doing a scroll on black vellum using powdered 23K gold that I need to > paint > -=>over solid ultramarine. Any tips/suggestions? Thanks - THLady Agatha of > -=>Tintagel > > It sounds like you're doing a black hours scroll, like the book in Painted > Prayers-- I've done this several times, and left the acanthus leaves and > other foliage black, painted the blue around them, and used gold > gouache in a dip nib to draw in the design on the leaves and flowers. > It looked to me like that was the method used in the examples I've seen > in books. I'd suggest mixing your gold powder with a little gum arabic to > make a paint. I've never done this, the only shell gold I used was already > in gum arabic, so I can't help you with specifics on how to do it. > > Hope this is lucid, I really need a nap. > > Chiara da Ravenna > Stonemarche, East (NH) > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 19:52:13 -0500 From: ESTAVASH@cs.com Subject: RE: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? "E. Brown" wrote: >Greetings, > >Can someone point me to some good examples of early Gothic script, >either online or in print? > I really love the Oxford library sites, particularly Manuscript images from the Bodleian Library and Oxford early manuscripts. Both sites can be reached through www.rsl.ox.ac.uk/welcome.html . The Bodleian Library page is easier to use, and the images don't take so long to download. There are some lovely pages from a Cistercian missal from around 1200, from which I have developed one of my favorite hands. If it's not quite what you're looking for, they have many other images that may be helpful. The Oxford site is a real gold mine, but it does take some digging. The files are huge, so they take forever to download, and many were chosen for their literary merit rather than their visual appearance. However, the images are so huge, you can really study every stroke of the pen, and the entire manuscript can be examined page by page. I think I remember seeing some Early Gothic hands there, but I'm not sure. I hope this helps, Ellen =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:28:02 -0500 From: Dave Nolan/Kara Westfall Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold This probably goes firmly into the YMMV category--when I do this style, I don't need to worry about the binder in the blue, because the majority of the gold never goes onto that area. The acanthus leaves are left unpainted, so I'm actually doing the gold on the black paper or vellum. I tried using a brush and quill for the gold work, but found that a bowl pointed steel nib was far and away faster and got better results. Of course, I was using gold gouache, so real gold may not work as well this way, I've only ever used shell gold in a brause nib for calligraphy. Chiara Greetings, Corinna Taylor/Al Frank! You wrote: - -=>Chiara, just two more points. - -=>First, it will help a lot if the ultramarine being painted onto is - -=>waterproof, or at least reasonably water resistant. Either an egg binder - -=>(glair or yolk) with powdered pigment, or glair added to gouache or - -=>watercolour, will help. - -=>Second, it might be easier to apply the gold with a fine brush rather than a - -=>pen. And a quill will work better than a steel nib. - -=>Corinna - -=>Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 21:10:31 -0800 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Shell Gold I just finished a piece in this style: http://communities.msn.com/cystennin/photos1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Photo ID=3 How did I do it? Pretty simple really: 1) The letters are done in white gouache, and raised gesso gilding. 1.5) The areas that looked like raised gilding (the shiny ones), are. 2) I drew out all of the acanthus work completely, in advance. 3) I went over all of the acanthus work in masking fluid. 4) I completely painted the entire border, including the areas in MF, in blue. 5) I then used an eraser to lightly lift away the areas in MF. 6) I then redrafted the lines in my acanthus work, as needed. 7) I then filled in the acanthus work with shell gold. 8) I used the natural black of the paper to do my shading. 9) I did not add any binder to the gold at all. - -----Original Message----- From: Dave Nolan/Kara Westfall [mailto:daffyd@worldpath.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:28 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold This probably goes firmly into the YMMV category--when I do this style, I don't need to worry about the binder in the blue, because the majority of the gold never goes onto that area. The acanthus leaves are left unpainted, so I'm actually doing the gold on the black paper or vellum. I tried using a brush and quill for the gold work, but found that a bowl pointed steel nib was far and away faster and got better results. Of course, I was using gold gouache, so real gold may not work as well this way, I've only ever used shell gold in a brause nib for calligraphy. Chiara Greetings, Corinna Taylor/Al Frank! You wrote: - -=>Chiara, just two more points. - -=>First, it will help a lot if the ultramarine being painted onto is - -=>waterproof, or at least reasonably water resistant. Either an egg binder - -=>(glair or yolk) with powdered pigment, or glair added to gouache or - -=>watercolour, will help. - -=>Second, it might be easier to apply the gold with a fine brush rather than a - -=>pen. And a quill will work better than a steel nib. - -=>Corinna - -=>Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 00:09:59 -0500 From: "E. Brown" Subject: Re: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? ESTAVASH@cs.com wrote: > > "E. Brown" wrote: > > >Greetings, > > > >Can someone point me to some good examples of early Gothic script, > >either online or in print? > > > > I really love the Oxford library sites, particularly Manuscript images from the Bodleian Library and Oxford early manuscripts. Both sites can be reached through www.rsl.ox.ac.uk/welcome.html . > > The Bodleian Library page is easier to use, and the images don't take so long to download. There are some lovely pages from a Cistercian missal from around 1200, from which I have developed one of my favorite hands. If it's not quite what you're looking for, they have many other images that may be helpful. Greetings, Thank you, this is a great place to start. The script is lovely enough to make you cry. The Cistercian missal starts from this page: www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/browse.htm I'm now puzzling: On the page fol. 129r, there are clearly two sizes of script, as if the scribe were trying to squeeze more text into inadequate space. The smaller script only(?) appears at the end of the text, before a new section. Is the size of the script significant to the text? or did the scribe simply run out of room before the next rubricated letter? Is it some kind of 'footnote', or note to the reader who is conducting the service (a mass for St. Edmund), the way small text notes are in modern (Anglican) prayer books? Is this a common occurrence? > The Oxford site is a real gold mine, but it does take some digging. The files are huge, so they take forever to download, and many were chosen for their literary merit rather than their visual appearance. However, the images are so huge, you can really study every stroke of the pen, and the entire manuscript can be examined page by page. I think I remember seeing some Early Gothic hands there, but I'm not sure. ...This will be my next surfing stop... Many thanks, regards, Genevieve Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:26:40 +1030 From: Jon Grotto Subject: [scribes]: CODEX AMIATINUS Hello all, I wrote a little time ago requesting any information people might have on the Codex Amiatinus...has anyone seen or know or someone who has seen a good facsimile (electronic or otherwise) of the Anglo-Saxon manuscript? I would be very appreciative of new leads, as the ones I have did not prove fruitful. Many thanks in advance. Yours Sinisterly, Cainnear na Ruad. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:31:56 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? Dear folks, Genevieve asks about the variation in script size in missals. The page she refers to can be seen here: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/bywater/adds/002.htm and selecting fol.4r Temporale with the initial "A". A missal is a book with the texts for the Mass and church celebrations for the year. This page has the first text is for the first sunday of Advent, the start of the Church year. It begins with the psalm beginning "Ad te levavi animam meam dominus", "To you I lift up my soul," and is followed by passages from psalms and from the Gospels. The Gospel passages are set off by text in red, sometimes explaining which Gospel the text is from (column 1, "Ad Romanos", Paul to the Romans), sometimes just marking whether the text is recited by the celebrant or is spoken by everyone in response (column 2, several times, "V", Verses [to be spoken]). The Gospel passages are in larger text, although the ruling of the lines doesn't change. Note that this is the only instance of changing text height in the original manuscript, the other pages are uniform (except for later additions). This was the tradition for writing and painting this particular page throughout Europe -- one of the first pieces I did in the SCA was based on this page from a Hungarian missal of about 1300. They always start with a large ornate "A" and so are frequently reproduced in books. - -- johannes v.n. "To the Taliban from the American people: Give us Bin Laden, or we will take all of your women and send them to college!" =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:09:13 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: early Gothic examples? I have not looked at this particular page, but in general the text would be completed with normal script size. An exception might be if the scribe knew it would only spill onto the next page a little, and was thus interested in not starting a new page. He may have only a set number of pages to use. The rubrics would be placed and colored AFTER the text was written, not before, but as the point is to finish before the next section, that was a close guess. Another reason for smaller text on a page is what is called a gloss. A gloss is the small writing that serves either as a translation or as a commentary on the text. For example, if you look into a gospels and see the latin in the big script but a smaller script is written between the lines, look to see if the smaller script is in a different language. Such as a Celtic book translated into old english. Otherwise it is a commentary. Some books were made with more commentary than the regular text. An example would be one of those layouts where the text is in a confined rectangle in the center of the page with a VERY wide margin on top, bottom, and both sides. The commentary would be written in a smaller script in it's own arranged text blocks surrounding the main text, and occupying the margin. Changing the color of the ink is another way, but not always what a color change implies. Color change can be instructions vs. text, or it can be quotation, or other differences from the main flow of the text. Bibles were often written with red as well as the black. RanthulfR "E. Brown" wrote: > > ESTAVASH@cs.com wrote: > > > > "E. Brown" wrote: > > > > >Greetings, > > > > > >Can someone point me to some good examples of early Gothic script, > > >either online or in print? > > > > > > > I really love the Oxford library sites, particularly Manuscript images from the Bodleian Library and Oxford early manuscripts. Both sites can be reached through www.rsl.ox.ac.uk/welcome.html . > > > > The Bodleian Library page is easier to use, and the images don't take so long to download. There are some lovely pages from a Cistercian missal from around 1200, from which I have developed one of my favorite hands. If it's not quite what you're looking for, they have many other images that may be helpful. > > Greetings, > > Thank you, this is a great place to start. The script is lovely enough > to make you cry. > > The Cistercian missal starts from this page: > > www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/browse.htm > > I'm now puzzling: > > On the page fol. 129r, there are clearly two sizes of script, as if the > scribe were trying to squeeze more text into inadequate space. The > smaller script only(?) appears at the end of the text, before a new > section. > > Is the size of the script significant to the text? or did the scribe > simply run out of room before the next rubricated letter? > > Is it some kind of 'footnote', or note to the reader who is conducting > the service (a mass for St. Edmund), the way small text notes are in > modern (Anglican) prayer books? > > Is this a common occurrence? > > > The Oxford site is a real gold mine, but it does take some digging. The files are huge, so they take forever to download, and many were chosen for their literary merit rather than their visual appearance. However, the images are so huge, you can really study every stroke of the pen, and the entire manuscript can be examined page by page. I think I remember seeing some Early Gothic hands there, but I'm not sure. > > ...This will be my next surfing stop... > > Many thanks, regards, > > Genevieve > Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:20:20 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold Cystennin , that is one really beautiful piece! Well done. I wish more people would post URLs to samples of their work. One comment though. IMHO you could have saved yourself the steps dealing with masking. A medieval scribe would have laid it out just as you did, and painted them separately as you did (although many decorative constructs were actually drawn in strokes right over a solid color, you are obviously going for an opaque style without blue ground showing). However, the difference is that a medieval scribe would have painted carefully right up to the edges of the acanthus outlines rather than masking and painting across the masked areas. Maybe more work, maybe not. Depends on whether you liked doing the extra clean-up after removing the masking. My experience has been that it seems to be easier and less work using the medieval method. RanthulfR Ken Stoner wrote: > > I just finished a piece in this style: > > http://communities.msn.com/cystennin/photos1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Photo > ID=3 > > How did I do it? Pretty simple really: > 1) The letters are done in white gouache, and raised gesso gilding. > 1.5) The areas that looked like raised gilding (the shiny ones), are. > 2) I drew out all of the acanthus work completely, in advance. > 3) I went over all of the acanthus work in masking fluid. > 4) I completely painted the entire border, including the areas in MF, in > blue. > 5) I then used an eraser to lightly lift away the areas in MF. > 6) I then redrafted the lines in my acanthus work, as needed. > 7) I then filled in the acanthus work with shell gold. > 8) I used the natural black of the paper to do my shading. > 9) I did not add any binder to the gold at all. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Nolan/Kara Westfall [mailto:daffyd@worldpath.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:28 PM > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold > > This probably goes firmly into the YMMV category--when I do this style, > I don't need to worry about the binder in the blue, because the majority > of the gold never goes onto that area. The acanthus leaves are left > unpainted, > so I'm actually doing the gold on the black paper or vellum. > I tried using a brush and quill for the gold work, but found that a bowl > pointed > steel nib was far and away faster and got better results. Of course, I > was > using > gold gouache, so real gold may not work as well this way, I've only ever > used > shell gold in a brause nib for calligraphy. > > Chiara > > Greetings, Corinna Taylor/Al Frank! You wrote: > -=>Chiara, just two more points. > -=>First, it will help a lot if the ultramarine being painted onto is > -=>waterproof, or at least reasonably water resistant. Either an egg > binder > -=>(glair or yolk) with powdered pigment, or glair added to gouache or > -=>watercolour, will help. > -=>Second, it might be easier to apply the gold with a fine brush rather > than > a > -=>pen. And a quill will work better than a steel nib. > > -=>Corinna > -=>Midrealm > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:36:15 -0500 From: Janice Safran Subject: [scribes]: Cystennin's picture Wow, Cystennin, your photo is beee-yootiful. It's so nice to be able to look at the piece a person is talking about when they describe a technique, but it's especially nice when the piece is gorgeous plus!! Woo! Jan, who is a really lousy and jealous callig-er : ) - -- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:15:36 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Cystennin's picture - --=====================_267230196==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:36 AM 11/8/2001 -0500, Janice Safran wrote: Great job, Cystennin. Beautiful work. Despina - --=====================_267230196==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 09:36 AM 11/8/2001 -0500, Janice Safran wrote:

Great job, Cystennin.  Beautiful work.

Despina - --=====================_267230196==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:09:51 -0800 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Shell Gold Thank you for your comments! I agree with you that a medieval illuminator would have done it the hard way. I tried it the medieval way on a test piece that I did... and it took forever! The level of detailing in the acanthus, especially in the really "daggy" areas, was really frustrating. The other thing that drove me nuts was the vine work. Painting right up to a fine line, and still making it look like a smooth and fluid line, was really, really difficult for me. I ended up using the masking fluid in order to save me some time. I am suspicious about how the medieval illuminators handled this... I am wondering if they painted over the vine work, and then went back over it with black ink or vine black? It's a thought... It might also explain why some of the vine work looks so much more intricate than one might expect if they were using a "negative" technique. Regardless, I am quite proud of this piece. It was my first attempt at using gesso through a pen nib (Mitchell Round hand nib without the reservoir) and in my opinion the letters came out OK. They would have benefited from more attention before gilding however... I neglected to scrape them smooth before burnishing. Also, as a result of using a thick coat for my subsequent interfacing on the letters (I only did 3 coats) the center-of-mass on the letters "fell" in as the gesso dried. I have found that this is not a problem if you use thinner gesso with more coats. It also results in a much smoother burnish. - -----Original Message----- From: Randy Asplund [mailto:randyaf@provide.net] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:20 AM To: Ken Stoner Cc: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold Cystennin , that is one really beautiful piece! Well done. I wish more people would post URLs to samples of their work. One comment though. IMHO you could have saved yourself the steps dealing with masking. A medieval scribe would have laid it out just as you did, and painted them separately as you did (although many decorative constructs were actually drawn in strokes right over a solid color, you are obviously going for an opaque style without blue ground showing). However, the difference is that a medieval scribe would have painted carefully right up to the edges of the acanthus outlines rather than masking and painting across the masked areas. Maybe more work, maybe not. Depends on whether you liked doing the extra clean-up after removing the masking. My experience has been that it seems to be easier and less work using the medieval method. RanthulfR Ken Stoner wrote: > > I just finished a piece in this style: > > http://communities.msn.com/cystennin/photos1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Photo > ID=3 > > How did I do it? Pretty simple really: > 1) The letters are done in white gouache, and raised gesso gilding. > 1.5) The areas that looked like raised gilding (the shiny ones), are. > 2) I drew out all of the acanthus work completely, in advance. > 3) I went over all of the acanthus work in masking fluid. > 4) I completely painted the entire border, including the areas in MF, in > blue. > 5) I then used an eraser to lightly lift away the areas in MF. > 6) I then redrafted the lines in my acanthus work, as needed. > 7) I then filled in the acanthus work with shell gold. > 8) I used the natural black of the paper to do my shading. > 9) I did not add any binder to the gold at all. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Nolan/Kara Westfall [mailto:daffyd@worldpath.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:28 PM > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold > > This probably goes firmly into the YMMV category--when I do this style, > I don't need to worry about the binder in the blue, because the majority > of the gold never goes onto that area. The acanthus leaves are left > unpainted, > so I'm actually doing the gold on the black paper or vellum. > I tried using a brush and quill for the gold work, but found that a bowl > pointed > steel nib was far and away faster and got better results. Of course, I > was > using > gold gouache, so real gold may not work as well this way, I've only ever > used > shell gold in a brause nib for calligraphy. > > Chiara > > Greetings, Corinna Taylor/Al Frank! You wrote: > -=>Chiara, just two more points. > -=>First, it will help a lot if the ultramarine being painted onto is > -=>waterproof, or at least reasonably water resistant. Either an egg > binder > -=>(glair or yolk) with powdered pigment, or glair added to gouache or > -=>watercolour, will help. > -=>Second, it might be easier to apply the gold with a fine brush rather > than > a > -=>pen. And a quill will work better than a steel nib. > > -=>Corinna > -=>Midrealm > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:50:05 -0600 From: "Margareta vanden Velde" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold Hello! I also did a piece in this style last year, but done a bit differently. I feel it turned out pretty well though. I drew everything in with pencil, then coloured in the gold using (I admit it) gold gouache, then coloured in the blue all around it (no masking fluid) and then retouched up the gold gouache. I didn't find painting the blue areas to be that onerous. The callig I did with a mixture of silver ink and white gouache (because it looked silvery in the book, yet my ink was not opaque enough to cover black paper) done with a quill pen. I had to dip a LOT (like 3 times per letter) but it did produce some of the nicest callig I'd done to that point. It's a lot like the rest, it can be seen at www.magma.ca/~grierson/scroll_gallery/Marcellus.JPG (it is 152 k) Margareta vanden Velde Barony of Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Stoner" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: RE: [scribes]: Shell Gold > I just finished a piece in this style: > > http://communities.msn.com/cystennin/photos1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&Photo > ID=3 > > How did I do it? Pretty simple really: > 1) The letters are done in white gouache, and raised gesso gilding. > 1.5) The areas that looked like raised gilding (the shiny ones), are. > 2) I drew out all of the acanthus work completely, in advance. > 3) I went over all of the acanthus work in masking fluid. > 4) I completely painted the entire border, including the areas in MF, in > blue. > 5) I then used an eraser to lightly lift away the areas in MF. > 6) I then redrafted the lines in my acanthus work, as needed. > 7) I then filled in the acanthus work with shell gold. > 8) I used the natural black of the paper to do my shading. > 9) I did not add any binder to the gold at all. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Nolan/Kara Westfall [mailto:daffyd@worldpath.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:28 PM > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shell Gold > > This probably goes firmly into the YMMV category--when I do this style, > I don't need to worry about the binder in the blue, because the majority > of the gold never goes onto that area. The acanthus leaves are left > unpainted, > so I'm actually doing the gold on the black paper or vellum. > I tried using a brush and quill for the gold work, but found that a bowl > pointed > steel nib was far and away faster and got better results. Of course, I > was > using > gold gouache, so real gold may not work as well this way, I've only ever > used > shell gold in a brause nib for calligraphy. > > Chiara > > > Greetings, Corinna Taylor/Al Frank! You wrote: > -=>Chiara, just two more points. > -=>First, it will help a lot if the ultramarine being painted onto is > -=>waterproof, or at least reasonably water resistant. Either an egg > binder > -=>(glair or yolk) with powdered pigment, or glair added to gouache or > -=>watercolour, will help. > -=>Second, it might be easier to apply the gold with a fine brush rather > than > a > -=>pen. And a quill will work better than a steel nib. > > -=>Corinna > -=>Midrealm > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:08:29 -0600 (CST) From: sburnell@raex.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Cystennin's picture > Wow, Cystennin, your photo is beee-yootiful. It's so nice to be able > to look at the piece a person is talking about when they describe a > technique, but it's especially nice when the piece is gorgeous plus!! > Woo! (Sigh) Ok, Cystennin, I am INSANELY jealous!! That is GORGEOUS work!!! Wow, wow, wow!! Thanks for sharing that with us! ~Saradwen, who wishes she were a better scribe, period! Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #35 ****************************