From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #31 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, October 31 2001 Volume 07 : Number 031 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Introduction [scribes]: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! [scribes]: Book of Durrow [scribes]: Re: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! RE: [scribes]: Shells Re: [scribes]: Shells Re: [scribes]: Shells Re: [scribes]: Book of Durrow RE: [scribes]: Shells Re: [scribes]: Shells Re: [scribes]: Re: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! Re: [scribes]: Re: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! [scribes]: Re: introduction Re: [scribes]: Re: introduction Re: [scribes]: Book of Durrow ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:39:29 -0800 (PST) From: Cheri Nichols Subject: [scribes]: Introduction Hello All! I am Lady Cheire Gradhmuir from the Shire of Starhaven, in the Kingdom of Trimaris. My scrible interests are still new and growing, but I'm mainly interested in the Illumination part of it; I have a lousy pen-hand. I don't have a time period that I prefer yet; still working on that too. I've only been interested in the scrible arts for about a year, so I have plenty to learn. My mundane art experiences include the study of Scientific Illustration and Graphic Art at UF, and I've worked as a sign person and graphic artist for the last 15 yrs. So I'm hoping that will help me some. Also, Is there a web site I can check the postings on? My 'puter is old and slow, and downloading lots of e-mail takes more time than my hyperactive little person can stand sometimes. Thanks for your time, Cheire Gradhmuir Shire of Starhaven Kingdom of Trimaris =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:28:14 -0600 (CST) From: sburnell@raex.com Subject: [scribes]: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! I found out that the Hours of Catherine of Cleves is to be republished by Braziller in November of this year. Amazon.com is offering it for $42.00, not a bad price! Also, I stumbled across a reference to an out-of-print book called "Distribution of Labor : The Illuminators of the Hours of Catherine of Cleves and their Workshop" by Robert G. Calkins. Does anyone have a copy of this book, and is it worth hunting down a copy? ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:45:51 EST From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Book of Durrow Good afternoon.... After sifting around briefly, I thought perhaps someone on the list here could point me to a particular bookseller who has some sort of book containing most of if not all of the printing of the Book of Durrow... I need the reference for a particular backlog AoA I'm working on in my spare time (slowly). Any help anyone could provide with an affordable source (as in less than an arm and a leg, and 2 sheep and a firstborn son...) would be much appreciated. Thanks!! - --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) E.Frank, Long Island NY (PS -- Welcome to the list, Cheire!) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 13:12:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth Blatt Subject: [scribes]: Re: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! At 11:28 AM -0600 10/29/01, sburnell@raex.com wrote: >Also, I stumbled across a reference to an out-of-print book called >"Distribution of Labor : The Illuminators of the Hours of Catherine of >Cleves and their Workshop" by Robert G. Calkins. Does anyone have a >copy of this book, and is it worth hunting down a copy? I've read it, though it's been a few years, so I'm fuzzy on the details; but I'll go over what I recall. Basically, Calkins' approach to studying manuscripts is that of a codicologist. Codicology is the studying and developing of the history of a manuscript, or manuscripts, based on the traits which detail how the manuscript was made, what this implies about the intentions and use of the manuscript, and what it reveals about the society which produced it; codicology is often referred to as the archaeological study of books. Anyway, "Distribution of Labor" arose, IIRC, from his PhD thesis; sometime around the mid-century, folks finally put together two (or three--I forget which) fragments of a single manuscript, which was the Hours of Catherine of Cleves. It had been pulled apart in a previous century and rebound in such a way that each fragment looked like a complete manuscript, so for years folks had thought that what we now view as the Hours of Catherine of Cleves was a smaller manuscript. By studying the style of illuminations, the size of the text blocs, and a bunch of other details, they were able to understand the structure of the original book. Two of these fragments are now in the possession of the Morgan Library. This was done at the time that Calkins was working on his thesis, and although he didn't work on the recreation project, he was able to study both fragments simultaneously, something that art historians prior to this project hadn't been able to do because the fragments were owned by different libraries. Via his study, Calkins developed the hypothesis that several different people had been responsible for the illuminations in the Hours of Catherine of Cleves. This was an important theory for art historians, because the Master of Catherine of Cleves was one of the big figures in the study of medieval Flemish illumination, and represented some departures from the norm which were later picked up by other illuminators (like the Hellmouths--they'd never before been illuminated before the Master of Catherine of Cleves did them; but after that they became rather popular). It was also important for the development of codicology--which had only hit the historical/academic research scene around this time, with the work of Delaisse--because Calkins identified responsibility for the illumination based on the type of illumination in question (ie, filigreed capitals, marginal decoration, marginalia, and miniatures). This, in turn, sheds light upon the aetelier, or workshop, practices of the Master of Catherine of Cleves and medieval illumination more generally. Overall, it's a good piece if you're specifically interested in either the Hours of Catherine of Cleves, the Master of Catherine of Cleves, Flemish manuscript illumination, or early works in codicology; for an introduction to the methods and practices of codicology, however, there are better resources. I hope this helps! Elianora Mathewes Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, AE =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:25:16 -0800 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Shells I seem to remember a primary source that specifies Oyster shells for making bone white? Actually, for making pigment, I think that Oyster shells are just fine. :-) They are chemically equivalent to clam shells, and you get a lot more material... of course, I think that the Oysters that are prevalent on the East Coast are not the same as the ones we have here in the Oyster Capitol of the world. (IMHO) On the other hand our Mussels are pitch black to Purple in color, and our clams tend to be very well colored with Reds, Greens, Blues and lots and lots of different shades of grey. (These are Manilla Little Necks, and their shells often look to me like landscape scenes, very very pretty little things... It almost makes me regret eating so many of them) When the oysters in Puget Sound are allows to sit outside in the sun (or rain) and in the air, they loose all of the coloration that is in their shells. The material itself also turns almost pure white. As to the length of time that this takes precisely... I have no idea. A few weeks maybe. I am fortunate, in that I know of a half dozen abandonded oyster canneries within driving distance on my house, and they all have mounds and mounds of oysters that are many years old. If you are not this fortunate, I suggest searching for oysters high up on the beach, where they are well bleached by the sun, or putting fresh oyster shells up on top of your roof for a few weeks and checking the results. - -----Original Message----- From: Randy Asplund [mailto:randyaf@provide.net] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 11:50 PM To: DonnelShaw@aol.com Cc: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shells Donnel, You probably don't want oyster shells, or for that matter the black mussels, ridged scallops, or any other colored, brittle, or textured shells. Fresh water mussels come white, and also come in many sizes from small for shell gold to large for great amounts of oil or yolk bound paint used on panels, coloring furniture, or whatever. For heavy duty jobs, or for working color into fresh plaster, small ceramic bowls were often used The best shells are the white clam shells. They are smooth, thick walled, and very white inside. I get them all the time because I buy stuffed clams, but yes, I also get them at seafood restaurants. Here's a tip. Bring a small margarine tub or a sandwich sized Tupperware container when you go to a nice seafood place. If you order a dish that serves shellfish in the shell, you are all set to come home without mess and smell. RanthulfR DonnelShaw@aol.com wrote: > > Well, tonight I was eating out with my family. As I was watching my husband > eat oysters it hit me that it had been mentioned about using shells for > period pigment. So what do I do? I embarrassed him by getting a bag to bring > them home in. The seeds you all planted. > Donnel > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:19:28 -0400 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shells I am confused? Are you saying the mussles are actually black inside, where you would put the paint? The shells I use are a very deep blue on the outside (this can be aged to white) but a very pearly white on the inside...same as clams, same as oysters. Griet =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:41:43 -0500 From: freewaydiva@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shells Hi all! I'm new to the list (and to scribal things), and generally lurk, but... Martin Higgins wrote: > I am confused? Are you saying the mussles are actually black inside, where you would put the paint? Yup. West-coast mussels are dark (but opalescent) on the inside. Kind of charcoal in flavour. Very pretty. And tasty, for the record. YIS, Bebhinn ingen Aoidh Principality of Avacal =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 18:44:36 EST From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Book of Durrow Hi! The best book I've seen on the Book of Durrow, with many photos of the text pages (though not all), is Bernard Meehan's _The Book of Durrow: A Medieval masterpiece at Trinity College Dublin_, published by Roberts Reinhart, copyright 1996, ISBN: 1-86059-005-5 (hardback) and 1-86059-006-3 (paper). The hardback was $20. You might try Amazon or bookfinder for it. Eowyn Amberdrake =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:26:05 -0700 From: "freewaydiva" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Shells Um...yeah. That should be 'charcoal in *colour*'. It's been a long day... YIS, Bebhinn - -----Original Message----- Hi all! I'm new to the list (and to scribal things), and generally lurk, but... Martin Higgins wrote: > I am confused? Are you saying the mussles are actually black inside, where you would put the paint? Yup. West-coast mussels are dark (but opalescent) on the inside. Kind of charcoal in flavour. Very pretty. And tasty, for the record. YIS, Bebhinn ingen Aoidh Principality of Avacal =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 20:55:15 -0400 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Shells > Um...yeah. That should be 'charcoal in *colour*'. It's been a long day... > > YIS, > Bebhinn I was also wondering about that *grin* Griet =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:46:17 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! I asked: >Also, I stumbled across a reference to an out-of-print book called >"Distribution of Labor : The Illuminators of the Hours of Catherine of >Cleves and their Workshop" by Robert G. Calkins. Does anyone have a >copy of this book, and is it worth hunting down a copy? And Elianora responded: > Basically, Calkins' approach to studying manuscripts is that of a codicologist. Codicology is the studying and developing of the history of a manuscript, or manuscripts, based on the traits which detail how the manuscript was made, what this implies about the intentions and use of the manuscript, and what it reveals about the society which produced it; codicology is often referred to as the archaeological study of books. This sounds sooooooooooooooooooo cool!! I think I will have to hunt down a copy and at the very least interlibrary loan it! Thank you for shedding light on this! As an old archaeologist (minored in it in college!) AND lover of illuminated MSS., this is right up my alley! Thank you, thank you, thank you!! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:17:50 EST From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Catherine of Cleves to be republished! - --part1_bd.163d7264.2910810e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This information in this book sounds very much like the very long introduction in my copy of the Hours of Catherine of Cleves. It goes into how they found the two manuscripts and figured out how they were cleverly seperated to look like two complete manuscripts instead of one whole one. They figure it was done by someone who wanted to make money by scamming two manuscripts instead of one. Perhaps this other book goes into much more detail than the intro in the Catherine of Cleves book. (I don't know, since I had never seen,nor heard of this other book until now.) But I also find this a very interesting topic. Brandy (Deputy Clerk Signet, Atlantia) In a message dated 10/29/2001 10:50:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, sburnell@raex.com writes: > I asked: > >Also, I stumbled across a reference to an out-of-print book called > >"Distribution of Labor : The Illuminators of the Hours of Catherine of > >Cleves and their Workshop" by Robert G. Calkins. Does anyone have a > >copy of this book, and is it worth hunting down a copy? > > And Elianora responded: > > Basically, Calkins' approach to studying manuscripts is that of a > codicologist. Codicology is the studying and developing of the history of a > manuscript, or manuscripts, based on the traits which detail how the > manuscript was made, what this implies about the intentions and use of the > manuscript, and what it reveals about the society which produced it; > codicology is often referred to as the archaeological study of books. > > This sounds sooooooooooooooooooo cool!! I think I will have to hunt down a > copy and at the very least interlibrary loan it! Thank you for shedding > light on this! As an old archaeologist (minored in it in college!) AND lover > of illuminated MSS., this is right up my alley! > > Thank you, thank you, thank you!! > > ~Saradwen > - --part1_bd.163d7264.2910810e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This information in this book sounds very much like the very long introduction in my copy of the Hours of Catherine of Cleves. It goes into how they found the two manuscripts and figured out how they were cleverly seperated to look like two complete manuscripts instead of one whole one. They figure it was done by someone who wanted to make money by scamming two manuscripts instead of one.

Perhaps this other book goes into much more detail than the intro in the Catherine of Cleves book. (I don't know, since I had never seen,nor heard of this other book until now.) But I also find this a very interesting topic.

Brandy
(Deputy Clerk Signet, Atlantia)

In a message dated 10/29/2001 10:50:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, sburnell@raex.com writes:


I asked:
>Also, I stumbled across a reference to an out-of-print book called
>"Distribution of Labor : The Illuminators of the Hours of Catherine of
>Cleves and their Workshop" by Robert G. Calkins. Does anyone have a
>copy of this book, and is it worth hunting down a copy?

And Elianora responded:
> Basically, Calkins' approach to studying manuscripts is that of a
codicologist.  Codicology is the studying and developing of the history of a
manuscript, or manuscripts, based on the traits which detail how the
manuscript was made, what this implies about the intentions and use of the
manuscript, and what it reveals about the society which produced it;
codicology is often referred to as the archaeological study of books.

This sounds sooooooooooooooooooo cool!! I think I will have to hunt down a
copy and at the very least interlibrary loan it! Thank you for shedding
light on this! As an old archaeologist (minored in it in college!) AND lover
of illuminated MSS., this is right up my alley!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!

~Saradwen


- --part1_bd.163d7264.2910810e_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:56:01 +1030 From: "kat" Subject: [scribes]: Re: introduction From Lady Katerina da Brescia, Greetings. I live in Innilgard (Adelaide) in the soon to be Kingdom of Lochac (Australia). I have been interested in scribes for a few years now and have done a few AOA scrolls. I am currently working on an original Vicounty scroll, in a late, Italian design. I prefer illuminating to calligraphy and am finding gothic script very hard. I prefer cursive gothic and Italian, myself. I have been in the SCA since 1994/5 and have way too many interests and now Scribing has to squeeze in as well. Mundanely, I work as an Optometrist, when not on maternity leave. I only did art until grade 10 at school, but have entered (and won) many art competitions in SF fandom. I also had some pen and ink work published in a now defunct Australian gaming magazine. Yours in service, Lady Katerina da Brescia Barony of Innilgard Lochac. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:58:34 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: introduction To both the newest members of this list, welcome. We are in the process of trying to put together some Frequently Asked Questions on this list so we can refer newcomers to it rather than have to reiterate things over and over (with a month or two between similar questions). I hope you both will be able to get some answers to any questions you might have, so feel free to ask them of the list. We are a varied group, encompassing all levels of calligraphy and illumination. There are many web sites out there for you to get started. My utter favorite is the Georgetown University site: http://www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/subjects/mss/mss.html as it has many, many links on it. There are more such sites out there, as well as many SCA scribal type sites. But, this one is a great start. Again, welcome to the list. Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:25:11 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Book of Durrow - --=====================_804479510==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:44 PM 10/29/2001 -0500, EowynA@aol.com wrote: >Hi! > >The best book I've seen on the Book of Durrow, with many photos of the >text pages (though not all), is Bernard Meehan's _The Book of Durrow: A >Medieval masterpiece at Trinity College Dublin_, published by Roberts >Reinhart, copyright 1996, ISBN: 1-86059-005-5 (hardback) and 1-86059-006-3 >(paper). The hardback was $20. Currently there is a copy of this on e-bay with a price of $22 and and end date of tomorrow. Cu Drag, Despina - --=====================_804479510==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 06:44 PM 10/29/2001 -0500, EowynA@aol.com wrote:
Hi!

The best book I've seen on the Book of Durrow, with many photos of the text pages (though not all), is Bernard Meehan's _The Book of Durrow: A Medieval masterpiece at Trinity College Dublin_, published by Roberts Reinhart, copyright 1996, ISBN: 1-86059-005-5 (hardback) and 1-86059-006-3 (paper).  The hardback was $20.

Currently there is a copy of this on e-bay with a price of $22 and and end date of tomorrow.

Cu Drag,
Despina

- --=====================_804479510==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #31 ****************************