From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #24 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, October 11 2001 Volume 07 : Number 024 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Ingredients Re: [scribes]: Ingredients Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? [scribes]: FROM MODERATOR: Looking for Volunteers for FAQ Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? (LONG) [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? [scribes]: crushing grinding and blue safety [scribes]: FROM MODERATOR: current net hoaxes [scribes]: Acid Chemistry? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:31:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ingredients > I have heard names bandied about like Master John, and Paper and ink, etc. > However, where do you find supplies like ox gall, pigments to mix up your > paints, gum arabic, etc? I thought the pharmacies of 100 years ago would > have stuff like that, but to hear all of you describe it, you can easily get > these. Well, not easily... but certainly not impossible. If you can make it to Pennsic, you can get pretty much everything a scribe could ever want. If that's not an option, most of the vendors also have a web presence. I don't have any links handy, but a search on Google will yield lots of goodies. > Does this list have an archives that is searchable? If so, what is the link? > What about recipes for making paints, glair, seize, size or what ever? > Are these classfied into a file in the archives? Inquiring minds... The archives are at http://www.castle.org/scribes/ but do not include a search engine, nor any sort of organization by subject. On the other hand, this list is so informative that you can pretty much choose any random digest and find useful information. :) > Is there a substitute for gum arabic and if so, what is it and what does gum > arabic do? Gum arabic is actually fairly simple to obtain, so you shouldn't need a substitute. I got a bottle at Michael's; any bigger artsy-type store should have it. They sell it as a watercolor medium... which is, oddly enough, exactly what it's used for. It's one of a class of substances that keep pigments "stuck together", so that when the water evaporates, the pigment won't revert back to dust and come off the paper at the slightest provocation. As for what is it, gum arabic is a tree sap. The sap crystals or pieces are dissolved in water to make a fluid about the consistency of cooking oil. (Buying the stuff pre-dissolved in a bottle is nice, because then you don't have to worry about cleaning out all the tree stuff that is bound to be mixed into the raw crystals.) YIS, Martha Darach, Caid __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:17:51 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ingredients - --=====================_10723429==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:31 PM 10/10/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > I have heard names bandied about like Master John, and Paper and ink, etc. > > However, where do you find supplies like ox gall, pigments to mix up your > > paints, gum arabic, etc? I thought the pharmacies of 100 years ago > would have stuff like that, but to hear all of you describe it, you can > easily get these. You can. Smiles, Despina http://www.icubed.com/users/jrose/jartindx.html Master John the Artificer - he does mail order as well as Pennsic http://www.letterarts.com/jnb/ John Neal - has a decent catalogue http://www.sinopia.com/ Sinopia sells pigments ready to use http://www.currys.com/medium/wnoxgall.html this site sells ox gall liquid Windsor and Newton sell both gum arabic (in liquid form) and ox gall in larger bottles that will last you a long time at reasonable prices for the amount you are getting. Most craft stores as well as art stores carry their stock. a note from Jack Thompson on ox gall: To explain for the beginners, ox gall is another name for bile and it comes (mostly) from the gall bladders of cattle. The darkness noted in most commercially available ox gall occurs because there are still some suspended solids in the solution. The ox gall I have made from fresh gall bladders is a light, clear yellow color, has no particular odor and is a far stronger surfactant than what I have purchased. Briefly, after expressing the bile into a beaker I add ethyl alcohol (about 50% of the volume of bile) and stir it throughly. After setting for a few days the solution is reasonably clear; after a month or so it is about as clear as it will become. For watercolorist's ox gall the procedure is quite different. The bile is divided into equal portions. Alum (one oz. of alum per pint of bile) is combined with boiling bile; common salt (same proportions) is added to the other pint of boiling bile. They are then set aside until the suspended matter has settled (this can take months) and then the clear portions are combined for use. Ox gall has a long shelf life. Acetic acid and chlorine gas have been used (is being used?) to make very clear ox gall. I distribute a couple of videotapes about traditional paper marbling. One is from a Guild of Book Workers Standards Seminar and features Paula Gourley (Turkish Marbling); the other features Don Guyot (Ebru: Paper Marbling in the Turkish Tradition) and that one includes a brief walk-on by me, showing how to prepare traditional ox gall. - --=====================_10723429==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 12:31 PM 10/10/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> I have heard names bandied about like Master John, and Paper and ink, etc.
> However, where do you find supplies like ox gall, pigments to mix up your
> paints, gum arabic, etc?  I thought the pharmacies of 100 years ago would have stuff like that, but to hear all of you describe it, you can easily get these.

You can.   Smiles, Despina

http://www.icubed.com/users/jrose/jartindx.html
Master John the Artificer - he does mail order as well as Pennsic

http://www.letterarts.com/jnb/
John Neal - has a decent catalogue

http://www.sinopia.com/
Sinopia sells pigments ready to use

http://www.currys.com/medium/wnoxgall.html
this site sells ox gall liquid

Windsor and Newton sell both gum arabic (in liquid form) and ox gall in larger bottles that will last you a long time at reasonable prices for the amount you are getting. Most craft stores as well as art stores carry their stock.

a note from Jack Thompson on ox gall:
 To explain for the beginners, ox gall is another name for bile and it comes (mostly) from the gall bladders of cattle. The darkness noted in most commercially available ox gall occurs because there are still some suspended solids in the solution. The ox gall I have made from fresh gall bladders is a light, clear yellow color, has no particular odor and is a far stronger surfactant than what I have purchased. Briefly, after expressing the bile into a beaker I add ethyl alcohol (about 50% of the volume of bile) and stir it throughly. After setting for a few days the solution is reasonably clear; after a month or so it is about as clear as it will become. For watercolorist's ox gall the procedure is quite different. The bile is divided into equal portions. Alum (one oz. of alum per pint of bile) is combined with boiling bile; common salt (same proportions) is added to the other pint of boiling bile. They are then set aside until the suspended matter has settled (this can take months) and then the clear portions are combined for use. Ox gall has a long shelf life. Acetic acid and chlorine gas have been used (is being used?) to make very clear ox gall. I distribute a couple of videotapes about traditional paper marbling. One is from a Guild of Book Workers Standards Seminar and features Paula Gourley (Turkish Marbling); the other features Don Guyot (Ebru: Paper Marbling in the Turkish Tradition) and that one includes a brief walk-on by me, showing how to prepare traditional ox gall.


- --=====================_10723429==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:47:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? That's a good description of the levigation process Eibhlin! Work, work, and then.......work. I have three suggestions, and one correction (the latter doesn't affect the process - it's just an historical note.) Suggestions: 1) Mull and grind with ceramic, not with glass. Glass is softer than Iron Pyrite - therefore if you use a glass muller you'll be adding ground glass to your pigment. 2) Both Lazurite and Calcite are alkaline minerals. Be sure that your dish soap doesn't contain Lemon or Vinegar, or you may damage the pigment. (I like to add liquid detergent to the mix before I start grinding. That eliminates both waste and risk from the dust produced during the grinding process.) 3) This may seem hopelessly basic.....but be sure that your stones really are Lapis. Sodalite, Dumortierite, and Azurite are all used as substitutes for Lapis - and may mislead the unwary. Finally, one correction: Synthetic Ultramarine was not extant in Period. It was first produced during the 1830's, as a response to a prize offered by the French government. (Thus the term "French" Ultramarine...) The synthetic material is pure Lazurite. Ironically, the very purity of synthetic Ultramarine detracts from its beauty. The optical properties of Calcite, and the golden flash of Pyrite add to the aesthetic impact of the genuine pigment. - -Peter- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:44:57 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? Eibhlin has it right except for one little thing. I very strongly suggest that one NOT wrap the chunks of rock in cloth AT ALL. Of course the reason for wrapping it is to prevent the rock from flying all over the place when you beat it into grit. However, there is a much better way. You see, the problem is that the rock is sharp and will shred the cloth. Fine, get a new cloth, right? Wrong. The cloth isn't at issue. The issue is with the fine bits of shredded lint that will inevitably get mixed into the powder and need to be floated off later. Try this instead: Take a short length of pipe, I like about 2" in diameter and 3-5 inches long, but it doesn't matter. Then get a solid metal rod close to that same interior dimension. I got lucky finding one, but you might need to get a metal plug and attach a narrower rod. You are making a plunger that will smack the rock. The rod and head need to be long enough to stick up above the pipe far enough to be held by your hand. Now take some cloth and cut a circle so that it is long enough to go over the top of the plunger and overlap the top sides of the pipe far enough to get tied or rubber band held in place. I actually made a small hole in mine for the top of the plunger to go through and taped it tight. This prevents the fabric from being torn when the plunger is struck. What you should now have is a plunger onside a closed container, and the bottom part of the container is the heavy metal pipe section. Put the rock on a slab of metal (anvil) and place the pipe & plunger over it. The plunger will sit on the rock, you will beat the top of the plunger until the rock is grit, and the fabric will cover the top so that the dust won't come flying out. This method is MUCH safer, and it prevents most of the dust from contaminating everything. Beating rocks in rags doesn't always do that. Now back to my work. Uuuggghhhhh. RanthulfR RenScribe@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/9/2001 11:13:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rdwlist@att.net writes: > > > Okay, I'm not a chemist. I'll give.. What's levigation? > > Levigation is separating finer material from heavier ones by suspending them > in liquid. > If you put a handful of rocks and a handful of sand in a jar of water and > shake it up, the rocks will fall to the bottom first and the sand will slowly > fall out of the water and end up with the finest particles of sand on top. > > Levigation can be used to help enhance the color of azurite and malachite. > Since the pigment will turn to a white powder if it is overground, it's > inevitable that some white powder will be in your pigment. Through levigation > you can wash off the fine white dust and leave behind the richer colored > pigment. It is important to do this after mulling. > > Levigation of pigments is not a modern technique. It was used by illuminators > in period. Persian guilds had a much respected and paid position of "Lapis > washer". _De Arte Illuminandi_ a fourteenth century treatise written by an > unknown illuminator, also mentions levigation of lapis. This is all back > documentation. When I first made lapis ultramarine I was looking for a not so > scary and less toxic way of getting the pigment. Cennini's recipe was > something I was not comfortable enough with chemistry to try ... and having > seen the disappointing results others were getting with it, wasn't interested > in repeating it. > > Here's how I make ultramarine from lapis: > Buy stones that are raw - uncut, undyed and with as much bright blue as you > can find. Avoid ones that have a lot of white veining. Wrap it in several > layers of rags and crush it up as small as possible with a hammer - grind > with a mortar and pestle (If high pitched noises bother you, make sure you > have ear plugs handy) - and then mull (be prepared for glass mullers to get > pretty gouged up) > > Put the whole crushed, ground and mulled stone into a container of water and > shake - the heavy particles (darkest blue) sink to the bottom almost > immediately while the less desirable white and small bits of blue stay > floating in the water. The trick is to draw off the water (and suspended > pigment) and separate it into batches based on color. I usually end up with > 3-5 different bottles of pigment every time I make ultramarine. The heaviest > is too big to be used as paint and needs to be remulled (it falls out in the > first 1-3 seconds). The second is the rich blue with gold flecks (it falls > out in 5-20 seconds). Subsequent batches get lighter in color. You may begin > to see distinct bands of color developing in your container, that's a sure > sign that you need to move the colored water into another container and leave > the pigment that has fallen to the bottom in that container. After the first > two colors are removed it takes minutes to days for the rest of the pigment > to settle out of the water. If you don't feel like standing around watching > for a color change, just switch containers after - 1 minute - 10 minutes - 30 > minutes - 2 hours - 5 hours ( I usually make this last switch just before I > go to bed) ...anything left over goes in the final batch. I have gotten some > lovely pastel blues. It takes days for them to settle out of the water > though. > > Like I said, the darker shades sink immediately. It really requires a bit of > speed to be able to draw off the usable pigment and leave what you want in > the container. I have a friend who works mundanely in the paint making > business and she suggested adding a drop or two of mild dish soap to the > water. This slows down the levigation enough that you can easily separate the > pigments. Soap was used as a levigation agent until recently in the paint > making industry. Too much soap will not hurt the pigment but will increase > the amount of work you have to do and the amount of time it will take to wash > it out of the pigment before you can use it. > > I started out making my own pigments in test tubes and moved into doing it in > jars. Tall skinny containers work better than short, fat ones. For removing > the water I used a plastic pipette in the test tubes and a turkey baster in > the jars. Once I have the pigment separated by color I leave the jars sitting > on the counter. Do not remix the colors or you will have to start all over > from step 1. Let the pigment settle, draw off the now clear water and > replace it with clean distilled water - stir well. Repeat this several times > to make sure that all of the soap is washed out of the pigment. The last > time, draw off most of the clear water, but leave enough to mix back into the > pigment to make a sludge of colored water. Pour this into small dishes to > dry. The dry pigment powder is brushed loose and placed into small vials for > storage. > > If all of this seems like a lot of work, well ... it is :-) > The amount of work that goes into it and the actual cost of materials is what > makes it such a highly prized pigment. Maybe that's why they came up with > synthetic ultramarine in period. It's the same chemically as lapis > ultramarine. It doesn't have the texture of real ultramarine and that affects > not only the feel of it and how you paint with it, but how the light reflects > off of it. It also doesn't have the gold flecks, but there are accounts of > real gold being added to synthetic ultramarine in period to make it look more > like lapis. > > This description makes sense to me, but I've been doing it for years. If > anyone has questions please ask. > > Eibhlin ni Chaoimh > AEthelmearc > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:54:39 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: FROM MODERATOR: Looking for Volunteers for FAQ Hello, A few years ago I set out o build a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page for the scribes list, which would address many of the frequent questions that we have seen pop on this list in the past. Unfortunately, due to my busy schedule and inability to concentrate on a single task for longer than a few hours at a time... This never happened. This list is pretty darned big. We have 227 subscribers and are getting between 5 and 30 posts a day. some of these posts are questions that we have seen numerous times. This is *not* a bad thing, however, it may be time to think about doing an FAQ again. We have, collectively in this list, some of the best scribal minds in the SCA and if we are motivated, can put together one heck of a FAQ. Therefor, I am looking for volunteers with a little bit of time on their hands for the following job functions: Coordinator: This person will accept suggestions from the list for questions that should go into the FAQ. This person also forwards the suggestions to a review commitee and assembles the final "Answer" based on the responsed from the review committee. The requirements for this position is someone who can type reasonably well, is efficient in E-Mail and able to drive the various topics to completion. Some knowledge of Copy Editing (Spelling and Grammar) would also be beneficial. This person does NOT need any specific expertise in the Scribal arts, however a little bit of knowledge might be useful. Interested persons should send me an email with some ideas about how they might manage this position. Reviewer: This person reviews suggested questions for relevancy and formulates answers to the questions. This person then works with the rest of the review committee to come up with a final answer. The requirments for this postion are that a person have expertise in some area of the Scribal Arts, and be able to work comfortably with others on a collaborative setting via e-mail. Persons interested in this position should send me an email listing their Qualifications, and the specific areas they consider themself skilled in. YOU DONT NEED TO BE A LAUREL for this. I think we shuld have at least five people in this position. Web Master: This person wil design the web site and add the content to it. This personal needs specific experience in building Web Sites, including HTML coding and some experience in Graphic Arts. This person does not need any experience in the Scribal Arts. Persons interested in this position should send me a link to one or two of their web-sites that they have been responsible for designing. . =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:58:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? Randy also has it right, except for one little thing. Lapis is much less expensive when you buy it from a lapidary has no use for the bits and scraps which are too small to be cut into cabochons. You will need to degrease these scraps, in order to remove any trace of saw lubricant. That's easily accomplished by soaking them in either acetone or denatured alcohol. The beauty of this little tip is that, in addition to being less expensive, tiny bits of Lapis are small enough to go directly into your mortar & pestle. Yet another option is to -be- a lapidary, who saves his bits and scraps for pigment making. :-) - -Pete- - --- Randy Asplund wrote: > Eibhlin has it right except for one little thing. I very strongly > suggest that one NOT wrap the chunks of rock in cloth AT ALL. Of > course > the reason for wrapping it is to prevent the rock from flying all > over > the place when you beat it into grit. However, there is a much better > way. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:41:29 -0600 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? (LONG) Oh *sigh* Peter, I really hate to do this. Your posts are usually "dead on" But Therasia has just been pushed off the keyboard by her evil twin who tortures undergrads with color-coordinated mineralogy lab practicals and other fun diversions ("alright class, since none of you answered question 4 on the midterm correctly, here are some extra homework problems for you to do by next tuesday, so that you'll have some more practice with this sort of question before the final...") I did say evil twin, didn't I??? > 2) Both Lazurite and Calcite are alkaline minerals. Be sure that your > dish soap doesn't contain Lemon or Vinegar, or you may damage the > pigment. I'm wondering if you didn't accidentally mistake a property of azurite as a property of lazurite. Azurite, which is a carbonate like calcite, will readily dissolve in most acids - since after all, the "acid test" is one of the things that defines the carbonate minerals as a class. Lazurite is a tectosilcate feldspathoid, which by mineralogy definitions is a mildly acidic mineral - it has to do with the balance of cations to oxygen in a manner that's counterintuitive if you've had nothing but modern chemistry in your background. It is resistent to dilute acids, organic and inorganic, though if you put it into dilute HCl (say 5 to 10%) to remove the calcite, it will begin to react with the HCl & makes silicic acid (as a gel!) in about 12 to 24 hours. Seeing that it only takes an hour to remove most calcite from a coarsely crushed sample, leaving it overnight isn't something most people would do unless they got lazy, and left the beaker in the fume hood until the next day... (I admit nothing! nothing, I tell you! I NEVER take shortcuts making my pigments! Never!!! ;-) And while thinking about how to make this response to your post, friend Peter, it did cross my mind that the definition of acid is really a very variable thing, not only across scientific disciplines, but also through history. In one of my lectures, I have an overhead that actually traces what the word "acid" means from classical times to present day. Someday, I'll probably get around to writing a TI article or something equivalent on the subject. The problem with doing the HCl acid trick to dissolve out the calcite is that HCl will attack and degrade the pyrite in the lazurite matrix - and will convert it to limonite. I learned this one the hard way. Acetic acid is slower at taking out the calcite, but the pyrite will not degrade unless the acetic acid is hot (and why would you even bother???). And even then, if the magnesium content of the calcite is greater than 5%, acetic acid will not do that good a job at dissolving the calcite - so levigation may still be necessary (I also learned this one the hard way...) > (I like to add liquid detergent to the mix before I start > grinding. That eliminates both waste and risk from the dust produced > during the grinding process.) you're grinding DRY?!?!? Always grind wet, always always always... Rock dust is a killer. (If I misunderstood you here, I eat my words cheerfully in advance) > 3) This may seem hopelessly basic.....but be sure that your stones > really are Lapis. Sodalite, Dumortierite, and Azurite are all used as > substitutes for Lapis - and may mislead the unwary. Lazurite is an intermediate in the sodalite solid-solution series, of which sodalite is the pure end member. They're almost the same thing, give or take a little calcium subbing in for some of the sodium. Having made pigment of both lazurite (Afganistan) and sodalite (Ontario, Canada), the only difference I could see in them was the lack of the little sparkly bits in the sodalite, since it has no pyrite as an accessory in its matrix. I added some ground pyrite to the sodalite, and from 5 feet away I couldn't tell them apart - to do that required a microscope. Sodalite from Canada is cheap. Two tablespoons of levigated sodalite (it has its own impurities which need removing) with half a pinch of pyrite is not a bad substitute for the "real thing." YMMV. Dumortierite is not only wierd and rare, but it never has pyrite, and is usually associated with quartz. It doesn't not occur with calcite. It is harder than quartz, so if you can scratch your blue rock with quartz, it's not dumortierite. Both sodalite and lazurite are strongly associated with calcite, and never never ever with quartz. They're less dense than most silicate minerals, and will be a little lighter in your hand than what your eye expects. Both can be scratched with quartz, but you'll have to work really hard to scratch them in turn with a regular table knife. ID'ing azurite is easy even if you don't have some dilute HCl hanging out. Not only will azurite go "fizz" in dilute HCl, you can scratch it easily with a table knife, or a spoon, or a quarter, etc. It is also a heavier minerals for its volume than either sodalite or lazurite. I have put azurite, lazurite, and sodalite together (along with a few other blue minerals) on a mineralogy lab practical. And there are even more pink minerals than there are blue! ;-) I really am rotton... > Finally, one correction: > Synthetic Ultramarine was not extant in Period. It was first produced > during the 1830's, as a response to a prize offered by the French > government. (Thus the term "French" Ultramarine...) The synthetic > material is pure Lazurite. Ironically, the very purity of synthetic In synthetic ultramarine, the ratio of sodium to calcium is 1:1. In nature it can vary a fair bit. Also, the synthetic has a fixed amount of sulfur, whereas in nature, lazurite always carries a little chlorine as a substitution in the sulfur sites. But I'm pretty sure it's the pyrite that makes the real stuff look so good, since proper levigation should remove the calcite from the lazurite, just like proper levigation removes the calcite impurities from azurite. The synthetic stuff is too damn uniform too, in comparison to the real stuff - which will end up having a range of particle sizes, which increases light diffraction vs. the synthetic stuff. So I think it's a combination of these 3 things, ie pyrite, variable chemistry and variable particles size which leads to the synthetic to look dull next to its country cousin... I'll go back to hiding under a rock now. ttfn, Therasia's Evil Twin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:59:32 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? In a message dated 10/10/2001 6:49:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, petersdiner@yahoo.com writes: > Synthetic Ultramarine was not extant in Period. It was first produced > during the 1830's, as a response to a prize offered by the French > government. Please bear in mind I am not a chemist. I have much better luck at pronouncing Gaelic right than I do at understanding a chemical compound. :-) I had been told that the synthetic blues talked about in _ Materials and Techniques _ are same as modern ultramarine. There are cheap, synthetic blues in period that were used as a substitute for lapis ultramarine. Can you imagine the cost of trying to paint a wall or ceiling with lapis ultramarine? OUCH!! Is there anyone on the list who knows how to make synthetic ultramarine by modern methods? How does it compare to the period recipes for synthetic blues? Are the period synthetic blues still available as modern pigments? I can probably dig out the chemical makeups if anyone wants to try and figure this out. This may actually help me with my next project ... a synthetic green used as a substitute for malachite. Thompson mentions that "a faint possibility exists that we are wrong in supposing all the bright, pale, crusty bluish greens in medieval manuscript and panel paintings to be malachite; but malachite matches the color and character of these greens so closely that we naturally believe in the identification..." _The Technical Analysis of Renaissance Illuminated Manuscripts_ confirms that a synthetic green was used ... and by luck, just happens to be the color I've been trying to match for years. Are we having fun yet :-) Eibhlin with apologies to all who are now thoroughly lost =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:00:53 -0700 From: ren.touch@juno.com Subject: [scribes]: crushing grinding and blue safety Aahhhh Yes the lucky people that have access to fume hoods. I thought I would share the standard wisdom of : Wood and Stone workers speech number 17(?) :(short version) Many of these things are not good to breathe; please work with safety in mind. That would be safety glasses and a mask and good ventilation. Some minerals and woods can be toxic both immediately and in the long term. And of course one of the first things they tried to teach me in Chem. class. "Know what you are mixing and what it will do." Thank you all. I so seldom feel I have any thing to contribute and I learn so much. Johann a dilettante and dabbler snip snip On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:41:29 -0600 Catie Helm-Clark writes:> > Oh *sigh* > her evil twin> who tortures undergrads with color-coordinated mineralogy lab> practicals and other fun diversions ("alright class, since none of > you > answered question 4 on the midterm correctly, here are some extra> homework problems for you to do by next tuesday, so that you'll > have some more practice with this sort of question before the > final...")> > takes an hour to remove most calcite from a coarsely crushed sample,> leaving it overnight isn't something most people would do unless > they> got lazy, and left the beaker in the fume hood until the next day... > (I> admit nothing! nothing, I tell you! I NEVER take shortcuts making > my> pigments! Never!!! ;-) ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:06:57 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: FROM MODERATOR: current net hoaxes Just to let you all know, There is a particularly nasty little set of urban legends clogging up network traffic. One is about not going to the mall on Oct 31st. Here is a link about the first one: http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blmall-terror.htm DO NOT FORWARD THESE TO THE SCRIBES LIST. They are urban legends and hoaxes. Regards, Kenneth Stoner =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:21:53 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: Acid Chemistry? I am trying to follow all of the chemistry below, please forgive my ignorance... But isn't HCl acid formed by the reaction of Vinegar and Salt? This is the solution that I use for pickeling my jewlery, and I always thought it was HCl... For that matter, isn't Acetic acid just vinegar? Anyways, I am reminded that Cennini wants us to make a "plastic" with Beeswax and Lye. I thought that Lye was a Base, but I can't really remember. He reccomends this as a way to get the 'Blue' out of your lapis without a lot of pain. What is the chemistry between the Calcite and the Base? Ken S. - -----Original Message----- From: Catie Helm-Clark [mailto:no1home@onewest.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:41 PM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? (LONG) Oh *sigh* Peter, I really hate to do this. Your posts are usually "dead on" But Therasia has just been pushed off the keyboard by her evil twin who tortures undergrads with color-coordinated mineralogy lab practicals and other fun diversions ("alright class, since none of you answered question 4 on the midterm correctly, here are some extra homework problems for you to do by next tuesday, so that you'll have some more practice with this sort of question before the final...") I did say evil twin, didn't I??? > 2) Both Lazurite and Calcite are alkaline minerals. Be sure that your > dish soap doesn't contain Lemon or Vinegar, or you may damage the > pigment. I'm wondering if you didn't accidentally mistake a property of azurite as a property of lazurite. Azurite, which is a carbonate like calcite, will readily dissolve in most acids - since after all, the "acid test" is one of the things that defines the carbonate minerals as a class. Lazurite is a tectosilcate feldspathoid, which by mineralogy definitions is a mildly acidic mineral - it has to do with the balance of cations to oxygen in a manner that's counterintuitive if you've had nothing but modern chemistry in your background. It is resistent to dilute acids, organic and inorganic, though if you put it into dilute HCl (say 5 to 10%) to remove the calcite, it will begin to react with the HCl & makes silicic acid (as a gel!) in about 12 to 24 hours. Seeing that it only takes an hour to remove most calcite from a coarsely crushed sample, leaving it overnight isn't something most people would do unless they got lazy, and left the beaker in the fume hood until the next day... (I admit nothing! nothing, I tell you! I NEVER take shortcuts making my pigments! Never!!! ;-) And while thinking about how to make this response to your post, friend Peter, it did cross my mind that the definition of acid is really a very variable thing, not only across scientific disciplines, but also through history. In one of my lectures, I have an overhead that actually traces what the word "acid" means from classical times to present day. Someday, I'll probably get around to writing a TI article or something equivalent on the subject. The problem with doing the HCl acid trick to dissolve out the calcite is that HCl will attack and degrade the pyrite in the lazurite matrix - and will convert it to limonite. I learned this one the hard way. Acetic acid is slower at taking out the calcite, but the pyrite will not degrade unless the acetic acid is hot (and why would you even bother???). And even then, if the magnesium content of the calcite is greater than 5%, acetic acid will not do that good a job at dissolving the calcite - so levigation may still be necessary (I also learned this one the hard way...) > (I like to add liquid detergent to the mix before I start > grinding. That eliminates both waste and risk from the dust produced > during the grinding process.) you're grinding DRY?!?!? Always grind wet, always always always... Rock dust is a killer. (If I misunderstood you here, I eat my words cheerfully in advance) > 3) This may seem hopelessly basic.....but be sure that your stones > really are Lapis. Sodalite, Dumortierite, and Azurite are all used as > substitutes for Lapis - and may mislead the unwary. Lazurite is an intermediate in the sodalite solid-solution series, of which sodalite is the pure end member. They're almost the same thing, give or take a little calcium subbing in for some of the sodium. Having made pigment of both lazurite (Afganistan) and sodalite (Ontario, Canada), the only difference I could see in them was the lack of the little sparkly bits in the sodalite, since it has no pyrite as an accessory in its matrix. I added some ground pyrite to the sodalite, and from 5 feet away I couldn't tell them apart - to do that required a microscope. Sodalite from Canada is cheap. Two tablespoons of levigated sodalite (it has its own impurities which need removing) with half a pinch of pyrite is not a bad substitute for the "real thing." YMMV. Dumortierite is not only wierd and rare, but it never has pyrite, and is usually associated with quartz. It doesn't not occur with calcite. It is harder than quartz, so if you can scratch your blue rock with quartz, it's not dumortierite. Both sodalite and lazurite are strongly associated with calcite, and never never ever with quartz. They're less dense than most silicate minerals, and will be a little lighter in your hand than what your eye expects. Both can be scratched with quartz, but you'll have to work really hard to scratch them in turn with a regular table knife. ID'ing azurite is easy even if you don't have some dilute HCl hanging out. Not only will azurite go "fizz" in dilute HCl, you can scratch it easily with a table knife, or a spoon, or a quarter, etc. It is also a heavier minerals for its volume than either sodalite or lazurite. I have put azurite, lazurite, and sodalite together (along with a few other blue minerals) on a mineralogy lab practical. And there are even more pink minerals than there are blue! ;-) I really am rotton... > Finally, one correction: > Synthetic Ultramarine was not extant in Period. It was first produced > during the 1830's, as a response to a prize offered by the French > government. (Thus the term "French" Ultramarine...) The synthetic > material is pure Lazurite. Ironically, the very purity of synthetic In synthetic ultramarine, the ratio of sodium to calcium is 1:1. In nature it can vary a fair bit. Also, the synthetic has a fixed amount of sulfur, whereas in nature, lazurite always carries a little chlorine as a substitution in the sulfur sites. But I'm pretty sure it's the pyrite that makes the real stuff look so good, since proper levigation should remove the calcite from the lazurite, just like proper levigation removes the calcite impurities from azurite. The synthetic stuff is too damn uniform too, in comparison to the real stuff - which will end up having a range of particle sizes, which increases light diffraction vs. the synthetic stuff. So I think it's a combination of these 3 things, ie pyrite, variable chemistry and variable particles size which leads to the synthetic to look dull next to its country cousin... I'll go back to hiding under a rock now. ttfn, Therasia's Evil Twin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #24 ****************************