From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #23 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, October 10 2001 Volume 07 : Number 023 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: lamp black ink [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? RE: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? Re: [scribes]: slightly off topic question Re: [scribes]: lamp black ink Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? (Cennini Online) [scribes]: Latin [scribes]: Re: Latin [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? [scribes]: FORWARDED: autobounced mail to the scribes list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 02:06:33 EDT From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: lamp black ink - --part1_15e.2094321.28f3ede9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/2001 6:53:14 PM Central Daylight Time, cmdrckr@pcis.net writes: > How does one make ink in this method? > I can send you the article in an attachment or I can place it on my yahoo-briefcase, if you would like. Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis. Speech is given to many, intelligence to few. - --part1_15e.2094321.28f3ede9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/8/2001 6:53:14 PM Central Daylight Time, cmdrckr@pcis.net writes:

How does one make ink in this method?

I can send you the article in an attachment or I can place it on my yahoo-briefcase, if you would like.

Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh
Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis.
Speech is given to many, intelligence to few.     - --part1_15e.2094321.28f3ede9_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:02:27 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? I don't know of a single person who has used the period (toxic) recipe and come out with anything other than dull gray pigment. In a message dated 10/8/2001 9:01:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, petersdiner@yahoo.com writes: > There is a safe modern method - which also has the virtue of being > faster than the Period method. (When I say "faster" I don't mean > "fast". Neither of the methods is "fast".) The modern method > involves a slow process of, first grinding up your Lapis, and then > allowing the Lazurite and Pyrite powder to drop out of a > detergent/water/Lapis suspension. The tricky part is removing the > suspended Calcite before it can settle to the bottom of the jar. Levigation may also be a period way of making ultramarine :-) There is a brief mention of it in _De Arte Illuminandi_. The author says he will go more in depth into the process later...then never does :-( I've made several batches of ultramarine this way. It takes an hour or so to get the really deep blue that is so highly prized. The lighter shades take a day or more. Lapis is a really hard stone to begin with. It beaks into sharp edged slivers. Be careful (wear long sleeves and eye protection) Even though I crushed mine up with a hammer under several layers of rags the edges cut through and ended up flying through the air when I wasn't careful. The small pieces are not easy to grind. Yes, my hand (arms & back too) ached from grinding it. I started out with an excellent piece of lapis and was well pleased with the results. It's such a thrill to paint with this. There is a texture to it and it feels like fine sandpaper when you run your fingers over the dry paint ....and the color is unbelievable. Be prepared to get spoiled :-) I can't use tube ultramarine anymore without tweaking it. Windsor & Newton ultramarine gouache is just a bit too intense. I add a tiny touch of black to tone it down a bit. Here is a link to a project I did using hand ground and levigated lapis for the blue paint. The resolution is a bit low, but you can see that it's not a really bright metallic blue, but the rich blue of lapis. http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/scribal/index.html Have fun :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:14:39 -0700 From: "Anne of Bradford" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? Okay, I'm not a chemist. I'll give.. What's levigation? - Anne, fascinated by almost anything made out of lapis <> Levigation may also be a period way of making ultramarine :-) There is a brief mention of it in _De Arte Illuminandi_. The author says he will go more in depth into the process later...then never does :-( <> =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 12:07:36 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: slightly off topic question - --=====================_101514790==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:27 PM 10/8/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I have been asked to do a presentation/workshop for my church on scroll >making. I am hoping to include some basic information about the SCA and >the history of scrolls. But as I am still a novice to scroll making and a >relative newbie to the SCA (about one year now), I am at a loss as to >where to start preparing what to say. http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3151/scrolls.html this page is pretty good about explaining what a scroll is and what a preprint is. The webpage is from 1995 and it is Caid in nature and reference, just so you know. >I figure I would prepare some preprinted borders and maybe some >Illuminated letters and let them paint them. I only have about 2 hours so >I can't really get into much depth on techniques. Most of the group will >have no art experience and very little knowledge of the middle ages. http://www.renstore.com/articles/GSS/index.shtml This website is a tutorial on how to do preprinted scrolls. It would seem ideal for what you are trying to do and helping you figure out what to say. While it does not have any preprints available for you to run off, it does give great instructions on how to do a number of things, like acanthus leaves and diapering. It is based in Atenveldt and was last updated in 1998. >If anyone on the list has any suggestions as to how to start preparing >what to say I would be most grateful. Also if anyone has scans of >preprints they would not mind sharing for a mundane workshop would be very >welcome. I didn't find any preprints on the web, so on that one you'll have to go it alone. Sorry. :^( Hope all goes well. Let us know. Smiles, Despina - ---------- A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who can do them absolutely no good. - --=====================_101514790==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 04:27 PM 10/8/2001 -0400, you wrote:
I have been asked to do a presentation/workshop for my church on scroll making.  I am hoping to include some basic information about the SCA and the history of scrolls.  But as I am still a novice to scroll making and a relative newbie to the SCA (about one year now), I am at a loss as to where to start preparing what to say. 

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/3151/scrolls.html this page is pretty good about explaining what a scroll is and what a preprint is.  The webpage is from 1995 and it is Caid in nature and reference, just so you know.

I figure I would prepare some preprinted borders and maybe some Illuminated letters and let them paint them.  I only have about 2 hours so I can't really get into much depth on techniques.  Most of the group will have no art experience and very little knowledge of the middle ages. 

http://www.renstore.com/articles/GSS/index.shtml  This website is a tutorial on how to do preprinted scrolls.  It would seem ideal for what you are trying to do and helping you figure out what to say.  While it does not have any preprints available for you to run off, it does give great instructions on how to do a number of things, like acanthus leaves and diapering.  It is based in Atenveldt and was last updated in 1998.

If anyone on the list has any suggestions as to how to start preparing what to say I would be most grateful.  Also if anyone has scans of preprints they would not mind sharing for a mundane workshop would be very welcome.

I didn't find any preprints on the web, so on that one you'll have to go it alone. Sorry. :^(

Hope all goes well.  Let us know.

Smiles,
Despina
A good way to judge people is by observing how they treat those who can do them absolutely no good.

- --=====================_101514790==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:26:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheryl McClanahan Subject: Re: [scribes]: lamp black ink - --0-1740280193-1002670006=:16414 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would be interested in getting a copy of this also!!!! Cheryl - Vallejo HRAFNASDOT@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/8/2001 6:53:14 PM Central Daylight Time, cmdrckr@pcis.net writes: How does one make ink in this method? I can send you the article in an attachment or I can place it on my yahoo-briefcase, if you would like. Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis. Speech is given to many, intelligence to few. - --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. - --0-1740280193-1002670006=:16414 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

I would be interested in getting a copy of this also!!!!

Cheryl - Vallejo

  HRAFNASDOT@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 10/8/2001 6:53:14 PM Central Daylight Time, cmdrckr@pcis.net writes:

How does one make ink in this method?

I can send you the article in an attachment or I can place it on my yahoo-briefcase, if you would like.

Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh
Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis.
Speech is given to many, intelligence to few.    


Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. - --0-1740280193-1002670006=:16414-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:22:51 -0400 From: ESTAVASH@cs.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? >I'll post the details of both Period and modern methods, if you're sure >that you really want to grind up your pretty stones! :-) > Peter, I would love to know the details, if you don't mind posting them. I plan to try a modern method, but if you could share references on the period methods, it would be great to have sources for documentation. If you think the details would not be of general interest to the list, perhaps you could just send them privately. I promise I'll only grind up one little stone... at least for now. Many thanks, Ellen =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:52:26 -0500 From: "Margareta vanden Velde" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? One vote for sending instructions to the list.... enquiring minds and all that... I too have a chunk of lapis. Margareta Skraeling Althing Ealdormere - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? > >I'll post the details of both Period and modern methods, if you're sure > >that you really want to grind up your pretty stones! :-) > > > > Peter, > > I would love to know the details, if you don't mind posting them. I plan to try a modern method, but if you could share references on the period methods, it would be great to have sources for documentation. > > If you think the details would not be of general interest to the list, perhaps you could just send them privately. I promise I'll only grind up one little stone... at least for now. > > Many thanks, > Ellen > > > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:54:30 -0600 From: "Laurel Anderson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? I'm sure a lot of you already know this- I have ultramarine blue powdered pigment that is manufactured synthetically, but I'm told is chemically identical to powdered lapis lazuli, without the impurities. I got mine from Lady Mairi (Mary Hyssong) in Atenveldt. I'm pretty sure Master John the Artificer also carries it. It is a lot cheaper too! Averil Citadel, Outlands =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:54:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? (Cennini Online) Hi Ellen! (Almost) everything you ever wanted to know about Period pigments, grounds, gessoes, gilding, etc. can be found in "The Craftsman's Handbook" by Cennino d'Andrea Cennini. The best English translation of this 15th Century book was published by Daniel Thompson, in 1933. Here's the cool part: Thompson's translation is now available online, in html format. The URL is http://www.noteaccess.com/Texts/Cennini/index.htm Cennini wrote extensive notes on the preparation of Ultramarine Blue. Just keep firmly in mind that not everything he says means what we poor 21st Century SCAdians -think- it means! For instance, when Cennini says "a pound" he means 12 ounces. When he says "new wax" he means beeswax. When he says "lye" he's talking about wood lye.......not Red Devil drain cleaner. When you're done looking at (and, if you have your wits about you, downloading) Cennini's book - check out the other goodies available at http://www.noteaccess.com/Texts . You'll find another of Thompson's publications, detailing the art of Egg Tempera painting. You'll also find a second Period handbook for painters - which, although it was written about the same time as Cennini's book, takes a more.....forward thinking approach. > I promise I'll only grind up one little stone...at least for now. > > Many thanks, > Ellen If you're going to make Ultramarine, you may as well grind up all the Lapis you have on hand. It takes just as long to levigate a little bit as it does to levigate a large quantity. (This I learned the hard way. :-) ) I'll write more about the modern process tomorrow - assuming that Lady Eibhlin doesn't beat me to it! (A couple of years ago, when we were both getting ready to crush gemstones, one of Eibhlin's friends showed her an effective modern substitute for Cennini's process. I am deeply indebted to her for sharing that bit of wisdom...just as I was about to begin cooking up Cennini's recipe. The only problem is, now I'm stuck with a jar of Gum Mastic which I don't need. :-) ) Until tomorrow, Peter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:38:26 -0500 From: David Ricker Subject: [scribes]: Latin Love the idea of Dr. Seuss in Latin. Too cool, and to do it in period is even better. What a work of art and a treasure it will be! I hope you will have pictures when it is done! Here is my question: I heard a rumor that there is a Latin site that teaches Latin or has the dictionaries on line. Has anyone else on the list heard the same rumor? If so, please let me know off list, unless others will benefit by this information. Thanks. Carolyn =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:14:06 -0400 From: Elizabeth Blatt Subject: [scribes]: Re: Latin - --============_-1209395643==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:38 AM -0500 10/10/01, David Ricker wrote: >Here is my question: I heard a rumor that there is a Latin site that >teaches Latin or >has the dictionaries on line. Has anyone else on the list heard the >same rumor? There are a couple sites that might answer your question; I'll respond to the list, as they may be of interest to others as well. A disclaimer to begin with, however: most commonly found learning-Latin information revolves around classical Latin, not medieval Latin or Renaissance Latin. Usage, vocabulary, word definitions, structure, aesthetics, and other aspects of Latin changed over time (and as its use as a native language was subsumed by other vernaculars); so learning to write something in classical Latin doesn't mean it will map over exactly to how that would have been written in the Middle Ages. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000476496832530&rtmo=343c2f5b&atmo=343c2f5b&pg=/et/97/3/8/elqed08.html has something like 20 intro-to-Latin lessons online. It doesn't stand alone well, despite that seeming intention. http://www.cherryh.com/www/latin_language.htm C. J. Cherryh, an SF author, wrote an easy-to-follow 10-part explanation of the way Latin works that analyzes it less for its grammatical components (the roots-up approach used in most classes and by most textbooks) but for how it works as a whole (the top-down approach often favored by reading-language classes). It won't leave you able to translate Cicero, or write a scroll in Latin, but it will provide a basic understanding of how the language operates. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001&layout=&loc=&query=toc is for Allen and Greenough's Latin Grammar, one of the classic grammar handbooks for Latin. It's exhaustive, but presupposes at least some knowledge of Latin. The Perseus site is, in general, an excellent resource for classical Latin, providing original and translated texts as well as a dictionary, morphological analysis tool, and English-to-Latin dictionary. It's main page is http://www.perseus.tufts.edu. There is an overview of Latin syntax at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0022 and the Lewis & Short dictionary at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lang=la Below is the bibliography from a handout I've used in teaching an intro-to-Latin class for the SCA which may be useful; I just remembered I had it, so there are some online as well as print resources listed that I might have continued to list above, but, remembering I had this, I didn't. :) Beeson, Charles, A Primer of Medieval Latin: an Anthology of Prose and Poetry - A good collection of primary-source excerpts in Medieval Latin. Blatt, F., Vademecum in opus Saxonis et alia opera Danica compendium ex indice verborum. Online at http://www.rostra.dk/latin/saxo.html this is a medieval Latin dictionary; note that definitions are also in Latin. Cappelli, Andrea, Dizionario di Abbreviature latine ed italiane. - An exhaustive index of Medieval Latin abbreviations with their definitions. Collins, John F., A Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin. Well-organized and thorough approach to helping one learn Ecclesiastical Latin, with good explanations of grammar, exercises and readings. Guildersleeve, B. L. and Lodge, Latin Grammar. - One of the two primary handbooks (Allen & Greenough is the other) used for studying Classical Latin; extremely detailed. Harris, William, The Intelligent Person's Guide to Latin - An excellent grammar for studying Latin in an accessible overview format that's not as detailed, but is more connected, than Guildersleeve or Allen and Greenough, online at http://www.middlebury.edu/~harris/Classics/LatinGrammar.html Nelson, Lynn H., New Latin Word List. http://kufacts.cc.ukans.edu/ftp/pub/history/Europe/Medieval/aids/latwords.html - - A list of approximately 8,000 words and definitions used in the Middle Ages which are different from the Classical definitions. A searchable version is online at http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ Perseus Project, The, Latin Morphological Tool. Online at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=Latin this tool allows you to input inflected Latin words for it to figure out their roots. The words have to be spelled correctly, however (so trying to get a result from inputting a Latin word from a medieval manuscript can be a gamble, as standardized spelling could be chancy). Traupman, John C., Bantam's New College Latin & English Dictionary - An elementary mass-market-sized Latin-English, English-Latin dictionary. Handy for quick reference, but (as with all of the Latin/English, English/Latin dictionaries) the small size results in limited scope. Not recommended as a study dictionary. Wheelock, Frederick, Wheelock's Latin. - The most common handbook for learning Classical Latin, with explanatory lessons and exercises. Anyway--good luck and enjoy! Elianora Mathewes, Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, AE - --============_-1209395643==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Latin
At 9:38 AM -0500 10/10/01, David Ricker wrote:
Here is my question:  I heard a rumor that there is a Latin site that
teaches Latin or
has the dictionaries on line.  Has anyone else on the list heard the
same rumor?

There are a couple sites that might answer your question; I'll respond to the list, as they may be of interest to others as well.

A disclaimer to begin with, however: most commonly found learning-Latin information revolves around classical Latin, not medieval Latin or Renaissance Latin.  Usage, vocabulary, word definitions, structure, aesthetics, and other aspects of Latin changed over time (and as its use as a native language was subsumed by other vernaculars); so learning to write something in classical Latin doesn't mean it will map over exactly to how that would have been written in the Middle Ages.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et?ac=000476496832530&rtmo=343c2f5b&atmo=343c2f5b&pg=/et/97/3/8/elqed08.html has something like 20 intro-to-Latin lessons online.  It doesn't stand alone well, despite that seeming intention.

http://www.cherryh.com/www/latin_language.htm  C. J. Cherryh, an SF author, wrote an easy-to-follow 10-part explanation of the way Latin works that analyzes it less for its grammatical components (the roots-up approach used in most classes and by most textbooks) but for how it works as a whole (the top-down approach often favored by reading-language classes). It won't leave you able to translate Cicero, or write a scroll in Latin, but it will provide a basic understanding of how the language operates.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001&layout=&loc=&query=toc  is for Allen and Greenough's Latin Grammar, one of the classic grammar handbooks for Latin.  It's exhaustive, but presupposes at least some knowledge of Latin.

The Perseus site is, in general, an excellent resource for classical Latin, providing original and translated texts as well as a dictionary, morphological analysis tool, and English-to-Latin dictionary.  It's main page is http://www.perseus.tufts.edu.  There is an overview of Latin syntax at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0022 and the Lewis & Short dictionary at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lang=la

Below is the bibliography from a handout I've used in teaching an intro-to-Latin class for the SCA which may be useful; I just remembered I had it, so there are some online as well as print resources listed that I might have continued to list above, but, remembering I had this, I didn't. :)

Beeson, Charles,  A Primer of Medieval Latin: an Anthology of Prose and Poetry - A good collection of primary-source excerpts in Medieval Latin.

Blatt, F., Vademecum in opus Saxonis et alia opera Danica compendium ex indice verborum.  Online at http://www.rostra.dk/latin/saxo.html this is a medieval Latin dictionary; note that definitions are also in Latin.
Cappelli, Andrea, Dizionario di Abbreviature latine ed italiane.  - - An exhaustive index of Medieval Latin abbreviations with their definitions.
Collins, John F.,  A Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin.  Well-organized and thorough approach to helping one learn Ecclesiastical Latin, with good explanations of grammar, exercises and readings.
Guildersleeve, B. L. and Lodge, Latin Grammar. - One of the two primary handbooks (Allen & Greenough is the other) used for studying Classical Latin; extremely detailed.
Harris, William,  The Intelligent Person's Guide to Latin - An excellent grammar for studying Latin in an accessible overview format that's not as detailed, but is more connected, than Guildersleeve or Allen and Greenough, online at http://www.middlebury.edu/~harris/Classics/LatinGrammar.html

Nelson, Lynn H.,  New Latin Word List. http://kufacts.cc.ukans.edu/ftp/pub/history/Europe/Medieval/aids/latwords.html   - A list of approximately 8,000 words and definitions used in the Middle Ages which are different from the Classical definitions.  A searchable version is online at http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/

Perseus Project, The,  Latin Morphological Tool.  Online at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=Latin this tool allows you to input inflected Latin words for it to figure out their roots.  The words have to be spelled correctly, however (so trying to get a result from inputting a Latin word from a medieval manuscript can be a gamble, as standardized spelling could be chancy).

Traupman, John C., Bantam's New College Latin & English Dictionary - An elementary mass-market-sized Latin-English, English-Latin dictionary. Handy for quick reference, but (as with all of the Latin/English, English/Latin dictionaries) the small size results in limited scope.  Not recommended as a study dictionary.
Wheelock, Frederick, Wheelock's Latin.  - The most common handbook for learning Classical Latin, with explanatory lessons and exercises.

Anyway--good luck and enjoy!
Elianora Mathewes,
Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, AE
- --============_-1209395643==_ma============-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:31:36 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Ultramarine blue? In a message dated 10/9/2001 11:13:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rdwlist@att.net writes: > Okay, I'm not a chemist. I'll give.. What's levigation? Levigation is separating finer material from heavier ones by suspending them in liquid. If you put a handful of rocks and a handful of sand in a jar of water and shake it up, the rocks will fall to the bottom first and the sand will slowly fall out of the water and end up with the finest particles of sand on top. Levigation can be used to help enhance the color of azurite and malachite. Since the pigment will turn to a white powder if it is overground, it's inevitable that some white powder will be in your pigment. Through levigation you can wash off the fine white dust and leave behind the richer colored pigment. It is important to do this after mulling. Levigation of pigments is not a modern technique. It was used by illuminators in period. Persian guilds had a much respected and paid position of "Lapis washer". _De Arte Illuminandi_ a fourteenth century treatise written by an unknown illuminator, also mentions levigation of lapis. This is all back documentation. When I first made lapis ultramarine I was looking for a not so scary and less toxic way of getting the pigment. Cennini's recipe was something I was not comfortable enough with chemistry to try ... and having seen the disappointing results others were getting with it, wasn't interested in repeating it. Here's how I make ultramarine from lapis: Buy stones that are raw - uncut, undyed and with as much bright blue as you can find. Avoid ones that have a lot of white veining. Wrap it in several layers of rags and crush it up as small as possible with a hammer - grind with a mortar and pestle (If high pitched noises bother you, make sure you have ear plugs handy) - and then mull (be prepared for glass mullers to get pretty gouged up) Put the whole crushed, ground and mulled stone into a container of water and shake - the heavy particles (darkest blue) sink to the bottom almost immediately while the less desirable white and small bits of blue stay floating in the water. The trick is to draw off the water (and suspended pigment) and separate it into batches based on color. I usually end up with 3-5 different bottles of pigment every time I make ultramarine. The heaviest is too big to be used as paint and needs to be remulled (it falls out in the first 1-3 seconds). The second is the rich blue with gold flecks (it falls out in 5-20 seconds). Subsequent batches get lighter in color. You may begin to see distinct bands of color developing in your container, that's a sure sign that you need to move the colored water into another container and leave the pigment that has fallen to the bottom in that container. After the first two colors are removed it takes minutes to days for the rest of the pigment to settle out of the water. If you don't feel like standing around watching for a color change, just switch containers after - 1 minute - 10 minutes - 30 minutes - 2 hours - 5 hours ( I usually make this last switch just before I go to bed) ...anything left over goes in the final batch. I have gotten some lovely pastel blues. It takes days for them to settle out of the water though. Like I said, the darker shades sink immediately. It really requires a bit of speed to be able to draw off the usable pigment and leave what you want in the container. I have a friend who works mundanely in the paint making business and she suggested adding a drop or two of mild dish soap to the water. This slows down the levigation enough that you can easily separate the pigments. Soap was used as a levigation agent until recently in the paint making industry. Too much soap will not hurt the pigment but will increase the amount of work you have to do and the amount of time it will take to wash it out of the pigment before you can use it. I started out making my own pigments in test tubes and moved into doing it in jars. Tall skinny containers work better than short, fat ones. For removing the water I used a plastic pipette in the test tubes and a turkey baster in the jars. Once I have the pigment separated by color I leave the jars sitting on the counter. Do not remix the colors or you will have to start all over from step 1. Let the pigment settle, draw off the now clear water and replace it with clean distilled water - stir well. Repeat this several times to make sure that all of the soap is washed out of the pigment. The last time, draw off most of the clear water, but leave enough to mix back into the pigment to make a sludge of colored water. Pour this into small dishes to dry. The dry pigment powder is brushed loose and placed into small vials for storage. If all of this seems like a lot of work, well ... it is :-) The amount of work that goes into it and the actual cost of materials is what makes it such a highly prized pigment. Maybe that's why they came up with synthetic ultramarine in period. It's the same chemically as lapis ultramarine. It doesn't have the texture of real ultramarine and that affects not only the feel of it and how you paint with it, but how the light reflects off of it. It also doesn't have the gold flecks, but there are accounts of real gold being added to synthetic ultramarine in period to make it look more like lapis. This description makes sense to me, but I've been doing it for years. If anyone has questions please ask. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:19:58 -0700 From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: FORWARDED: autobounced mail to the scribes list Please reply to the sender, not to me. postmaster@castle.org - ------- Forwarded Message Message-ID: <3BC45A73.39394C62@pcis.net> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:25:55 -0500 From: David Ricker Reply-To: cmdrckr@pcis.net To: scribes@castle.org Subject: ingredients I have heard names bandied about like Master John, and Paper and ink, etc. However, where do you find supplies like ox gall, pigments to mix up your paints, gum arabic, etc? I thought the pharmacies of 100 years ago would have stuff like that, but to hear all of you describe it, you can easily get these. Does this list have an archives that is searchable? If so, what is the link? What about recipes for making paints, glair, seize, size or what ever? Are these classfied into a file in the archives? Inquiring minds... Thanks for the attachment on lamp black. I have some more ??? but will not ask them until I have actually made some ink. Is there a substitute for gum arabic and if so, what is it and what does gum arabic do? Carolyn - ------- End of Forwarded Message =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #23 ****************************