From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #22 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, October 8 2001 Volume 07 : Number 022 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Re: Mixing ink with wine Re: [scribes]: Re: Mixing ink with wine Re: [scribes]: Re: Mixing ink with wine [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions RE: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions [scribes]: Alices A&S documentation? Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions [scribes]: oak galls [scribes]: Re:Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Re: [scribes]: Alices A&S documentation? [scribes]: GOT IT, Thanks all! WAS: Alices A&S Documentation Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall [scribes]: books for sale Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall [scribes]: lamp black ink [scribes]: slightly off topic question Re: [scribes]: lamp black ink [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:16:10 -1000 From: "Christine Robertson" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Mixing ink with wine I haven't heard of this particular ink powder, but I expect the white wine is to add enough alcohol to prevent it going off in the short term. It may have hide glue as the binder, and I know from experience that such ink can go off a bit over a few days. The alcohol will evaporate from your page with no problems. I added a little methylated spirits to my ink before I corked it up, and it smelled OK and worked well the next time I used it. - --Yseult de Lacy, OL, Rowany, Lochac, West =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 21:12:09 -0600 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Mixing ink with wine Christine Robertson wrote: > I haven't heard of this particular ink powder, but I expect the white wine is > to add enough alcohol to prevent it going off in the short term. It may have > hide glue as the binder, and I know from experience that such ink can go off > a bit over a few days. > The alcohol will evaporate from your page with no problems. > I added a little methylated spirits to my ink before I corked it up, and it > smelled OK and worked well the next time I used it. > --Yseult de Lacy, OL, Rowany, Lochac, West I would feel just a little wary before using this on paper. Wine is a source a dilute tartaric acid, which in vellum would get "fixed" with any iron in the ink as iron tartrate, which is stable and happy in traditionally made vellums and parchment. But my thought is that it might not achieve chemical inertness on paper, since iron and copper acetates, tartrates and tannates will eventually eat even the most acid-balanced of papers (and these _can_ be ingredients of many modern inks, though they might not be in your case, but adding white wine will certain add a component of tartaric and possibly acetic acid to the ink) You might want to try straight alcohol or grain alcohol instead of wine - that would skirt the problem of there being organic acids in wine. Just a thought from someone who thinks about chemistry for a living Make some up using different vehicles, like wine, or grain alcohol or whatever & try some test pieces taped to a window that gets sunlight every day and see if they get faded or degraded after a year. Just a suggestion ttfn, Therasia, old used scribe aka Catherine Helm-Clark, Ph.D., Idaho State University =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 20:50:12 -0800 From: David & Corinne Kohrn Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Mixing ink with wine Calote here-- Not only did my old calligraphy professor recommend using alcoholic beverages to thin ink which needed thinning, he was very particular--white wine for Italic scripts, dark beer for fractur and textura. I have a feeling the smell of the open bottle was supposed to help with the correct gestalt or something. Calote dragonfly@w-link.net =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 22:54:47 -0500 From: Greg Young/Jocelyn Wirth Subject: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions > Yes, and yes. It will definitely help. Adding the gum arabic helps >to keep your paints from smearing when erasing around them or if you >accidentally rub your fingers across them after they have dried. >Remember, just a drop is all you need, more than a drop makes your paint >very glossy, like acrylics. Greetings all, We've heard lots of really great info about gum arabic. What info can people give about ox gall, and it's uses? Thanks in advance, Ainesleah ***************************************************************************** Mistress Hermina Matilda de Ainesleah of Meredene, OL Member # 19216 HL Robin Arthur Kyrke, Esq.; Principality Archery Marshal Member # 28653 Barony of Castel Rouge Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Jocelyn Wirth and Greg Young excalibr@gatewest.net ****************************************************************************** =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 23:54:26 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Greetings Ainesleah and all: Oxgall, as the name implies, comes from the gall bladders of oxen. It's essentially a water tension breaker, i.e. it makes the paint wetter. It's very useful on surfaces that don't accept paint well, such as overly glossy papers. and it's good to add to colours that are prone to streaking and unevenness, such as ultramarine blue. It's especially helpful for larger washes. It's also used in paper marbling to make the paint spread and float instead of sink. Is marbling period? I haven't seen anything about it on this list, but I believe some forms date back to Turkey in the middle ages. Corinna Midrealm > We've heard lots of really great info about gum arabic. What info can > people give about ox gall, and it's uses? > > Thanks in advance, > > Ainesleah > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:05:17 -0500 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions I read a recipe for the ink that was used to tattoo slaves in Rome, written in the sixth century, that mentions gall. It also mentions vitriol....what's vitriol? Faelen not so wise, but working on it =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:05:22 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Vitriol is sulphuric acid. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark" To: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions > I read a recipe for the ink that was used to tattoo slaves in Rome, written > in the sixth century, that mentions gall. It also mentions vitriol....what's > vitriol? > > > > Faelen > not so wise, but working on it > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 01:47:23 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions The GALL that would be used for an INK would almost certainly be an OAK GALL, which is VERY DIFFERENT from an OX GALL. :-) As was explained earlier, Ox Gall is used to reduce the surfce tension of the paint. Use it by adding a few drops to your mix water. In place of Ox Gall, I have heard of people using a drop of detergent. I do not read any documentation on the use of Ox Gall in the middle ages. I would be very interested if someone knows of any... Ranthulfr? Ken S. aka Cystennin - -----Original Message----- From: Corinna Taylor/Al Frank [mailto:uncial@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:05 AM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions Vitriol is sulphuric acid. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark" To: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" ; Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions > I read a recipe for the ink that was used to tattoo slaves in Rome, written > in the sixth century, that mentions gall. It also mentions vitriol....what's > vitriol? > > > > Faelen > not so wise, but working on it > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 03:16:33 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: Alices A&S documentation? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C14FE2.4E0B608E" - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C14FE2.4E0B608E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have a back copy of this? I lost my copy again. I would be very grateful. =20 Kenneth Allen Stoner Microsoft Consulting Services - Enterprise Applications Practice My other house is a Data Warehouse! =20 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C14FE2.4E0B608E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does anyone have a back copy of this? I lost my copy = again. I would be very grateful.

 

= Kenneth Allen Stoner

Microsoft Consulting Services - = Enterprise= Applications Practice

My other house is a Data Warehouse!

 

=00 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C14FE2.4E0B608E-- - --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:00:09 -0200 From: alienor Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions - --------------040000080409050505090508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vitriol in connection with ink making usually refers to iron sulfate (green vitriol), also called copperas. Blue vitriol is copper sulfate and this fact does cause some confusion, as it would seem that copper sulfate would be copperas. But it's not. You can find some really good info with regard to ink making at the following link. Evan Lindquist, Old writing/drawing ink recipes Alienora Russeal - --------------040000080409050505090508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vitriol in connection with ink making usually refers to iron sulfate (green vitriol), also called
copperas.  Blue vitriol is copper sulfate and this fact does cause some confusion, as it would
seem that copper sulfate would be copperas.  But it's not.  You can find some really good
info with regard to ink making at the following link.
Evan Lindquist, Old writing/drawing ink recipes

Alienora Russeal
- --------------040000080409050505090508-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 09:10:06 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: [scribes]: oak galls - --=====================_4465270==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed and while I was out this weekend I came across some oak galls, soon I shall make more ink ...... happy is the scribe with a husband who has to visit streams for his research! Smiles, Despina - ---------- - ---------- Fealty oath used by the nobles of medieval Aragon: "We who are equal to you swear to you who are no better than us fealty and obedience, so long as you shall defend our rights and privileges; and if not, then not." - --=====================_4465270==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
and while I was out this weekend I came across some oak galls, soon I shall make more ink ...... happy is the scribe with a husband who has to visit streams for his research!

Smiles,
Despina




Fealty oath used by the nobles of medieval Aragon:
"We who are equal to you swear to you who are no better than us fealty and obedience, so long as you shall defend our rights and privileges; and if not, then not."
 - --=====================_4465270==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:26:32 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions In a message dated 10/8/2001 4:47:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenstone@microsoft.com writes: > As was explained earlier, Ox Gall is used to reduce the surfce tension > of the paint. Use it by adding a few drops to your mix water. In place > of Ox Gall, I have heard of people using a drop of detergent. > > I do not read any documentation on the use of Ox Gall in the middle > ages. I would be very interested if someone knows of any... Since I started using aged glair as a binder, I don't use ox gall. Old glair handles pretty much the same way as ox gall does .... very fluid. I find the smell of glair less offensive than ox gall. Especially when the glair is made from free range chicken eggs. Which doesn't smell nasty at all. :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Wolfger von Sibenburgen Subject: Re: [scribes]: Alices A&S documentation? Sent privately Wolfger von Sibenbürgen Shire of Mooneschadowe, Ansteorra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:54:17 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: GOT IT, Thanks all! WAS: Alices A&S Documentation This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C15009.1A6E242D" - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C15009.1A6E242D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have received a copy of this, no need to send another one. =20 Thanks to ALL who responded. =20 Kenneth Allen Stoner Microsoft Consulting Services - Enterprise Applications Practice My other house is a Data Warehouse! =20 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C15009.1A6E242D Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have received a copy of this, no need to send = another one.

 

Thanks to ALL who responded.

 

= Kenneth Allen Stoner

Microsoft Consulting Services - = Enterprise= Applications Practice

My other house is a Data Warehouse!

 

=00 - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C15009.1A6E242D-- - --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 11:17:41 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall In a message dated Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:55:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" writes: > It's also used in paper marbling to make the paint spread and float instead > of sink. Is marbling period? I haven't seen anything about it on this > list, but I believe some forms date back to Turkey in the middle ages. Yes, marbling is period. There are period examples of marbled paper from India, Persia and Turkey and even examples of marbled paper in books that were brought into Europe (mostly the areas that are modern Austria and Czech Republic) in the 1500s. BTW, period marbling was not done with a a carrageenan size, like we use now, but on a size of dilute gum arabic. Luighseach who LOVES to marble > > Corinna > Midrealm > > > We've heard lots of really great info about gum arabic. What info can > > people give about ox gall, and it's uses? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Ainesleah > > > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 10:57:59 -0500 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: [scribes]: books for sale If you don't have these, they are wonderful. Currently on Ebay there are two listings for Master of Mary of Burgundy, one Catherine of Cleves, and one Rohan Master. Just type in 'Book of hours' as your search phrase. Cu Drag, Despina =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:56:02 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions OK, First, Green Vitriol used for making ink is not sulfuric acid. It Is Ferrous Sulfate, AKA "Copperas" and it is sold as a whitish green powder. The iron content here is very important. As for Ox gall's historical use, Sorry, but at the moment I have no clue. I am swamped right now and don't have time to dig out the answer. All I know is that it was used before "modern" wetting agents were invented, but that doesn't necessarily imply a date going back to the days of manuscript illumination. If anyone wants to dig, look under wetting agents as your first clue. RanthulfR Ken Stoner wrote: > > The GALL that would be used for an INK would almost certainly be an OAK > GALL, which is VERY DIFFERENT from an OX GALL. :-) > > As was explained earlier, Ox Gall is used to reduce the surfce tension > of the paint. Use it by adding a few drops to your mix water. In place > of Ox Gall, I have heard of people using a drop of detergent. > > I do not read any documentation on the use of Ox Gall in the middle > ages. I would be very interested if someone knows of any... Ranthulfr? > > Ken S. aka Cystennin > > -----Original Message----- > From: Corinna Taylor/Al Frank [mailto:uncial@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:05 AM > To: scribes@castle.org > Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions > > Vitriol is sulphuric acid. > > Corinna > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark" > To: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" ; > > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 1:05 AM > Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall, was Gouche Proportions > > > I read a recipe for the ink that was used to tattoo slaves in Rome, > written > > in the sixth century, that mentions gall. It also mentions > vitriol....what's > > vitriol? > > > > > > > > Faelen > > not so wise, but working on it > > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:46:37 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall Greeting Luiseach, Could you give me more information on marbling with gum arabic? First, approximately how much goes in the size? Do you recommend prepared liquid or powder? Second, what kind of paints? Diluted gouache & watercolours? Oils? I've done oil on plain water with interesting but not very controlled results. I've also done traditional carrageenan, and once I goot reasonably good results on liquid laundry starch. I'm less concerned with period authenticity than with attractive results and convenience. Corinna Midrealm - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ox Gall > > Yes, marbling is period. There are period examples of marbled paper from India, Persia and Turkey and even examples of marbled paper in books that were brought into Europe (mostly the areas that are modern Austria and Czech Republic) in the 1500s. BTW, period marbling was not done with a a carrageenan size, like we use now, but on a size of dilute gum arabic. > > Luighseach > who LOVES to marble =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:28:51 EDT From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: lamp black ink - --part1_53.c83a5ca.28f35873_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question - I have made lamp black ink using soot from a standard household oil lamp. Both the modern candles and the house lamp oil contain petroleum distillates. Can I still be in period using this ink? And - Has anyone had problems using this type of ink, i.e., is it more caustic or harmful to your tools or paper? Thanks. Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis. Speech is given to many, intelligence to few. - --part1_53.c83a5ca.28f35873_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a question - I have made lamp black ink using soot from a standard household oil lamp.  Both the modern candles and the house lamp oil contain petroleum distillates.  Can I still be in period using this ink?  And - Has anyone had problems using this type of ink, i.e., is it more caustic or harmful to your tools or paper?
Thanks.

Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh
Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis.
Speech is given to many, intelligence to few.     - --part1_53.c83a5ca.28f35873_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:27:40 EDT From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: slightly off topic question - --part1_163.209000b.28f3663c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been asked to do a presentation/workshop for my church on scroll making. I am hoping to include some basic information about the SCA and the history of scrolls. But as I am still a novice to scroll making and a relative newbie to the SCA (about one year now), I am at a loss as to where to start preparing what to say. I figure I would prepare some preprinted borders and maybe some Illuminated letters and let them paint them. I only have about 2 hours so I can't really get into much depth on techniques. Most of the group will have no art experience and very little knowledge of the middle ages. If anyone on the list has any suggestions as to how to start preparing what to say I would be most grateful. Also if anyone has scans of preprints they would not mind sharing for a mundane workshop would be very welcome. Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_163.209000b.28f3663c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been asked to do a presentation/workshop for my church on scroll making.  I am hoping to include some basic information about the SCA and the history of scrolls.  But as I am still a novice to scroll making and a relative newbie to the SCA (about one year now), I am at a loss as to where to start preparing what to say.  

I figure I would prepare some preprinted borders and maybe some Illuminated letters and let them paint them.  I only have about 2 hours so I can't really get into much depth on techniques.  Most of the group will have no art experience and very little knowledge of the middle ages.  

If anyone on the list has any suggestions as to how to start preparing what to say I would be most grateful.  Also if anyone has scans of preprints they would not mind sharing for a mundane workshop would be very welcome.

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_163.209000b.28f3663c_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:16:27 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: lamp black ink You could try making it from linseed oil. That is an authentic fuel for lampblack production, and it is sold as a wood polish for furniture. RanthulfR HRAFNASDOT@aol.com wrote: > > I have a question - I have made lamp black ink using soot from a > standard household oil lamp. Both the modern candles and the house > lamp oil contain petroleum distillates. Can I still be in period > using this ink? And - Has anyone had problems using this type of ink, > i.e., is it more caustic or harmful to your tools or paper? > Thanks. > > Asa Hrafnasdottir > Loch Ruadh > Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis. > Speech is given to many, intelligence to few. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:42:01 -0400 From: ESTAVASH@cs.com Subject: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? I have acquired a few small pieces of high quality lapis, and I've been thinking about grinding them up to make ultramarine blue. However, I vaguely remember reading something about there being a lengthy process involved in this. Does anyone know if I can just powder the lapis and use it the way I would use other powdered pigments? If there is a complex process involved, is there a safe way to do it at home? I'd be interested in both period methods and modern shortcuts, if there are any. Thanks, Ellen =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:59:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ultramarine blue? Hi Ellen! > I have acquired a few small pieces of high quality lapis, and I've > been thinking about grinding them up to make ultramarine blue. Think carefully before proceeding. The only source of high quality Lapis is Afghanistan. Your small pieces may be worth more than you think, now that Afghanistan is effectively cut off from the rest of the planet. > However, I vaguely remember reading something about there being a > lengthy process involved in this. Does anyone know if I can just > powder the lapis and use it the way I would use other powdered > pigments? No. Lapis must be processed in order to yield Ultramarine. Both the modern and the Period methods are lengthy, and require lots of elbow grease. Even the best Lapis will yield only a bluish-gray powder when it is ground. This is because Lapis is a rock, and not a single mineral. Lapis most commonly contains three minerals - Lazurite (blue), Calcite (white, gray, or colorless), and Iron Pyrite (golden). Top quality Lapis, which appears to be a rich, royal blue, still contains a considerable amount of Calcite in the matrix. Ultramarine is made from powdered Lapis which has been refined, as nearly as possible, into pure Lazurite. > If there is a complex process involved, is there a safe > way to do it at home? Yes! The modern method is safe enough. The Period method is dangerous, unless you fully understand the difference between medieval and modern terminology. (e.g. Cennino's 15th Century recipe calls for "Turpentine"; and by "Turpentine" he means Colophony Rosin. We say "Turpentine" - and we mean Rectified Spirits of Gum Turpentine....a flammable solvent. The price for this misunderstanding can be deadly, as Cennino's recipe requires that the "Turpentine" be heated. You must NEVER heat a solvent! As if that weren't confusing enough, the medieval "lye" in Cennino's recipe is not the same as the "lye" which we use to clean out plugged drain pipes. The Period method also requires the use of Gum Mastic - a substance which, these days, is almost as expensive as Lapis.) There is a safe modern method - which also has the virtue of being faster than the Period method. (When I say "faster" I don't mean "fast". Neither of the methods is "fast".) The modern method involves a slow process of, first grinding up your Lapis, and then allowing the Lazurite and Pyrite powder to drop out of a detergent/water/Lapis suspension. The tricky part is removing the suspended Calcite before it can settle to the bottom of the jar. I've done it. It works. The resulting pigment is beautiful. Only you can say whether or not the end product is worth the hassle! Your hands will ache from grinding. Your eyes will be bleary from staring at the suspension, trying to time it just right. You will wish that you had started with a better grade of Lapis. > I'd be interested in both period methods and > modern shortcuts, if there are any. I'll post the details of both Period and modern methods, if you're sure that you really want to grind up your pretty stones! :-) - -Peter- Peter Gwer Rychen von Bern Lapidary Artisan & Scribe Barony of the Rhyderrich Hael Aethelmearc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #22 ****************************