From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #16 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, October 2 2001 Volume 07 : Number 016 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Re: [scribes]: Arabic line spacing Re: [scribes]: Arabic line spacing [scribes]: gold leaf help please [scribes]: Japanese calligraphy?? Re: [scribes]: Japanese calligraphy?? Re: [scribes]: gold leaf help please RE: [scribes]: gold leaf help please [scribes]: My Cats are getting turned into Fur Coats! Re: [scribes]: gold leaf help please RE: [scribes]: gold leaf help please ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 23:19:00 EDT From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. I was wondering if anyone had any constructive ideas on how to cope with possible burnout... I was planning on a nice long 3-4 week break from scribing after pooling 27.5 hrs into one assignment in 2 weeks, and roughly the same amount in 3 weeks just prior to the last one, and going to my boyfriend's sister's wedding feeling semi-vacant between the ears. After all of that, I still have another assignment -- backlog, thankfully, like the one done in 3 weeks' time -- I had originally wanted to do for 100 Minutes' War (11-10-01). This normally would not be a problem, considering that it's still more than a month away, however... After attending the A&S meeting tonight and discovering the newcomer who was supposed to show to learn callig did not, without leaving a message, and the seneschal was the only other person there... Somehow in the first 30 minutes of conversation, I was asked politely if I could do two scrolls for two brothers (one for each) who had provided space for an event at one particular location on more than one occasion. This request was quickly followed up with an "I don't know what your schedule is like..." and a "you could do it in your own time" suggestion. 5 minutes after that, it was also mentioned to me that two prominent members of my barony had also not gotten their Tygers Combatant scrolls, which I quickly mentioned that I had not seen on the backlog webpage, but was told that these may be too old to have been kept track of... As polite as it was phrased, and as nice as the seneschal is, I explained my situation, and offered to do some of this whenever I found time. (You can whap me now). I'm finding it awfully hard to think that I'm not being taken for granted; there are precious few other local scribes, and I would seriously appreciate the help of anyone pitching in on researching the scrolls the seneschal brought up.... but at the same time, as before, I feel like I just experienced the "Hey look, there's a scribe, let's ask her..." situation. I do have a life outside the SCA and would like to relax a little more often, but can't bring myself to be rude or too firm with this guy. By the same note, a member of my other household has inquired about learning to do scrolls, which is in a way a blessing -- she already has a BFA and knows how to paint. Plus it being a household award, I don't have to explain to her any particular set of suggested wording (she's also a poet, so that helps). But yes, my head hurts, and I have this strange urge to crawl under a rock and take an aspirin, instead of considering touching a pile of 4 more unassigned scrolls. The seneschal's a nice guy, don't get me wrong, but each scroll uses up valuable energy of mine. As always, there's a slight pressure to put more time in with my home barony (not my adopted one, where I spend nearly every weekend), and I'm not forced to do anything I don't want to. But it still feels like I'm looking at Mt. Everest. - --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East)' E.Frank, Long Island, NY =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:49:46 -0300 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Don't be afraid to say no.... yeah, I know, easier said than done. But the way I look at it is, if it stops being fun, time to take a break... just explain that you are burning out and can't make any promises right now. Too often people forget that some of us actually have lifes other than the SCA... but I doubt it is malicious. Sorry if this was no help Hope you do get a rest from it all...everybody needs one now and then Griet =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:37:16 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Kayleigh, Been there, done that. You know what? You need a break, honey. Trust me. Don't burn yourself out to the point where you don't even want to look at your art box again. Did that once. Took me years to even want to get back to the scribing thing. In the meantime, I played around with fibre arts and had a great time learning a new A&S thing, but after a while, I felt compelled to return - on my own terms: No more "It's gotta be done YESTERDAY preferrably", no more taking on more assignments than I could handle, no more giving up valuable nights of sleep and then feeling lousy for days afterwards, no more "You want it WHEN?".............................. If I can get it, I prefer about a month lead time on doing scrolls. Note that I said, If I can get it. I *still* get those late night frantic phone calls on occasion from our signet, and yes, I have a darned hard time saying "no" when it's late Wednesday night going into Thursday morning and the scroll HAS to be done for Saturday's event, giving me next to no time to get it done.......................... BUT, I will tell you this: Be nice to yourself. You deserve it. Be firm but diplomatic in turning down commissions, even IF it's a Kingdom scroll type of thing. If you can't do it, you can't do it, and there's no shame in just saying "no". And give yourself that needed "scribal vacation" on occasion. Go do something else for a while. Try some other A&S field. Learn a new craft. Or try one of the Arts Martial, like fencing or archery or something. Sometimes that change is good for the soul, and I speak from lots of experience. Don't let yourself get steamrollered into burning out to the point where you never want to scribe again. We scribes are far and few between and very much overworked sometimes, but it's always nice to know how valued and needed we are. Especially if the Royalty goes out of its way to acknowledge the scribes in court. That makes all the sweat and tears worth the whole thing - that and seeing the face of the recipient when he or she receives your scroll. That's priceless. Anyway, here's hoping my advise at least helps you a little bit! I speak from a lot of experience at what you're going through! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:22:25 -0400 From: "Amy" Subject: Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Kayleigh, I'll tell you the same thing I keep hearing....the word "No" is not supposed to be followed by the word "problem" :) I know--easier said than done, and I haven't learned to do it myself yet, but I am trying! Olwyn Eisental East PS--Are you going to Kingdom Crusades? Crown? When am I going to see you next? "I fear that all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve." Admiral Yamamoto, Dec. 8, 1941 - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 11:19 PM Subject: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. > I was wondering if anyone had any constructive ideas on how to cope with > possible burnout... > > I was planning on a nice long 3-4 week break from scribing after pooling 27.5 > hrs into one assignment in 2 weeks, and roughly the same amount in 3 weeks > just prior to the last one, and going to my boyfriend's sister's wedding > feeling semi-vacant between the ears. > > After all of that, I still have another assignment -- backlog, thankfully, > like the one done in 3 weeks' time -- I had originally wanted to do for 100 > Minutes' War (11-10-01). This normally would not be a problem, considering > that it's still more than a month away, however... > > After attending the A&S meeting tonight and discovering the newcomer who was > supposed to show to learn callig did not, without leaving a message, and the > seneschal was the only other person there... Somehow in the first 30 minutes > of conversation, I was asked politely if I could do two scrolls for two > brothers (one for each) who had provided space for an event at one particular > location on more than one occasion. This request was quickly followed up with > an "I don't know what your schedule is like..." and a "you could do it in > your own time" suggestion. 5 minutes after that, it was also mentioned to me > that two prominent members of my barony had also not gotten their Tygers > Combatant scrolls, which I quickly mentioned that I had not seen on the > backlog webpage, but was told that these may be too old to have been kept > track of... > > As polite as it was phrased, and as nice as the seneschal is, I explained my > situation, and offered to do some of this whenever I found time. (You can > whap me now). I'm finding it awfully hard to think that I'm not being taken > for granted; there are precious few other local scribes, and I would > seriously appreciate the help of anyone pitching in on researching the > scrolls the seneschal brought up.... but at the same time, as before, I feel > like I just experienced the "Hey look, there's a scribe, let's ask her..." > situation. I do have a life outside the SCA and would like to relax a little > more often, but can't bring myself to be rude or too firm with this guy. By > the same note, a member of my other household has inquired about learning to > do scrolls, which is in a way a blessing -- she already has a BFA and knows > how to paint. Plus it being a household award, I don't have to explain to her > any particular set of suggested wording (she's also a poet, so that helps). > > But yes, my head hurts, and I have this strange urge to crawl under a rock > and take an aspirin, instead of considering touching a pile of 4 more > unassigned scrolls. The seneschal's a nice guy, don't get me wrong, but each > scroll uses up valuable energy of mine. As always, there's a slight pressure > to put more time in with my home barony (not my adopted one, where I spend > nearly every weekend), and I'm not forced to do anything I don't want to. > > But it still feels like I'm looking at Mt. Everest. > > --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East)' > E.Frank, Long Island, NY > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:58:19 -0500 From: "Margareta vanden Velde" Subject: Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. Here's my advice, for what it's worth: teach, baby, teach! It's work in the short run but in the long run, you can clone yourself and then say things like, "I know one of my competent new scribes would just LOVE to do this scroll, I will ask them". I offer "Scribing without fear" classes here and there has been extraordinary response in our barony, I can't believe all the people that swear they have wanted to do this for years and just never had someone to show them. I have taught already about 15 people (in small classes) and I have four more interested for the next time I run the same class. It's a three-hour class tha comes with a ten-dollar kit that discusses the history of the SCA scroll and callig/illum in period, then does layout, a bit of callig, a section on materials, a bit of period pigments, touches on gold leaf, mixes paint, cuts a quill pen and fixes a callig mistake by cutting it off 140 lb press paper. And any other questions that pop up, such as scroll standards in our kingdom, text wording, types of awards etc. It's not like I'm a huge expert on these things but I know enough to teach beginners, and do. The class comes with a HUGE handout and a plea to come out to local scriptorium (at my house) where I can teach them some more if they like. Of course not all the pasta will stick to the wall, figuratively speaking, there are of course people who take the class and never scribe, but I have garnered five VERY dedicated scribes in our canton this way. There are one or two who are so good they are making me feel very inferior... I mean, be careful what you ask for, you might get it! Certainly I have to say I no longer feel like I am "indispensable" to this barony/kingdom for scribing.... Although I still do take on too many assignments, haven't figured out any cure for rank stupidity yet. =) I guess my reason is that I still really really like scribing and just want to do them all! But at least I'm not suffering. Hope this helps. It will be easier if you are someone that likes to teach, but it did work spectacularly well in my barony, good luck in the East! Ps. sorry to the list about the auto-responder, I will figure out how to turn that off today. Margareta vanden Velde Barony of Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere (Ottawa, Ontario) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 10:19 PM Subject: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. > I was wondering if anyone had any constructive ideas on how to cope with > possible burnout... > > I was planning on a nice long 3-4 week break from scribing after pooling 27.5 > hrs into one assignment in 2 weeks, and roughly the same amount in 3 weeks > just prior to the last one, and going to my boyfriend's sister's wedding > feeling semi-vacant between the ears. > > After all of that, I still have another assignment -- backlog, thankfully, > like the one done in 3 weeks' time -- I had originally wanted to do for 100 > Minutes' War (11-10-01). This normally would not be a problem, considering > that it's still more than a month away, however... > > After attending the A&S meeting tonight and discovering the newcomer who was > supposed to show to learn callig did not, without leaving a message, and the > seneschal was the only other person there... Somehow in the first 30 minutes > of conversation, I was asked politely if I could do two scrolls for two > brothers (one for each) who had provided space for an event at one particular > location on more than one occasion. This request was quickly followed up with > an "I don't know what your schedule is like..." and a "you could do it in > your own time" suggestion. 5 minutes after that, it was also mentioned to me > that two prominent members of my barony had also not gotten their Tygers > Combatant scrolls, which I quickly mentioned that I had not seen on the > backlog webpage, but was told that these may be too old to have been kept > track of... > > As polite as it was phrased, and as nice as the seneschal is, I explained my > situation, and offered to do some of this whenever I found time. (You can > whap me now). I'm finding it awfully hard to think that I'm not being taken > for granted; there are precious few other local scribes, and I would > seriously appreciate the help of anyone pitching in on researching the > scrolls the seneschal brought up.... but at the same time, as before, I feel > like I just experienced the "Hey look, there's a scribe, let's ask her..." > situation. I do have a life outside the SCA and would like to relax a little > more often, but can't bring myself to be rude or too firm with this guy. By > the same note, a member of my other household has inquired about learning to > do scrolls, which is in a way a blessing -- she already has a BFA and knows > how to paint. Plus it being a household award, I don't have to explain to her > any particular set of suggested wording (she's also a poet, so that helps). > > But yes, my head hurts, and I have this strange urge to crawl under a rock > and take an aspirin, instead of considering touching a pile of 4 more > unassigned scrolls. The seneschal's a nice guy, don't get me wrong, but each > scroll uses up valuable energy of mine. As always, there's a slight pressure > to put more time in with my home barony (not my adopted one, where I spend > nearly every weekend), and I'm not forced to do anything I don't want to. > > But it still feels like I'm looking at Mt. Everest. > > --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East)' > E.Frank, Long Island, NY > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 04:44:15 -0700 From: "Eva Mehlhose" Subject: Re: [scribes]: My Head Hurts. > Kayleigh, > > I'll tell you the same thing I keep hearing....the word "No" is not supposed > to be followed by the word "problem" :) > Look who is talking...."I will never be a scribe..." she said two mere years ago. No did exist in your vocabulary but you conquered it nicely Olwyn. Have I told you lately how extremely proud I am to have you as a friend as well as a fellow scribe? > I know--easier said than done, and I haven't learned to do it myself yet, > but I am trying! None of us ever develop that skill sufficiently. My standard answer is to get my appointment book with a listing of different projects out and show whoever is asking how long the wait list is. I do not charge for my scroll work in the SCA world, however, I am very finicky as to whose and what I do take on privately. For those projects my time line is booked for the next year or better. > PS--Are you going to Kingdom Crusades? Crown? When am I going to see you > next? Even though the skies are open again for the winged beasts, money is tight with coronation only 4 weeks away. Will have to pass on this one...grin.....thanks for asking ....grinning and running away now.... Alex the scribe Barony of SunDragon Atenveldt =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 15:11:55 +0000 From: "Russell Husted" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Arabic line spacing What was line spacing like on arabic documents from period? Hrefna - ----- space between lines? That depends on what hand you are using. If you want standard, 10 nibs widths. Seven for the tall letters and three for the letters that hang below the line. How long is the line? Line lengths are a odd number of line heights. So if your line is 10 nibs tall, then your line length can be 30nibs, 70 nibs, 90 nibs and so on. There is not a required ending point. Let the paper guide you. How many lines per page? Again, an odd number of lines, and primes are preferred, but the writing space should not be square. using 1 line height as a unit, 5x9 or 9x5 is great. Although 10x 14 is sometimes used it is o.k. because it is actually 5 x 7 proportions...how is that for logic. Hope that answers your questions. your servant, mahee _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 15:26:25 +0000 From: "Russell Husted" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Arabic line spacing OOps... What was line spacing like on arabic documents from period? Hrefna - ----- space between lines? That depends on what hand you are using. If you want standard, 10 nibs widths. Seven for the tall letters and three for the letters that hang below the line. I forgot to mention that a nibs width is not measured the same way. You make a square at a 45 degree angle the length and width of the nib...I think I said that badly too.... not [] .[] [] .[] [] but / ./ / ./ / ./ / it makes diamonds instead of squares. hope I have finally said something that makes sence. your servant, mahee _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:50:49 -0400 From: "Sampson, Maureen (CC/DLM)" Subject: [scribes]: gold leaf help please > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:19:54 EDT > From: KMcWhyte@aol.com > Subject: [scribes]: Time spent on scrolls (was value of scrolls) > > and was also my first attempt at gilding. > > Hopefully next time, I'll have more time to practice gilding before > jumping > into it again. > > I am also working on practically my first attempt at gilding. I did it once with my mentor using her supplies, but this time I went out and bought my own stuff and did it by myself. Ugh! I bought the wrong kind of gold - the type not backed on the paper - you know the type that seizes up into a crumpled mess as soon as you open the book. Then I tried to make my own size. My mentor had one that worked great. It was (don't cringe) Elmer's glue watered down with a couple of drops of red ink thrown in. Well, I used that on Friday night and set it aside to be completely dry. On Saturday night when I sat down to get to business, the little balls took ok, but the two large areas wouldn't take the gold. I blew and I cursed and I ended up repainting my glue-stuff on and blowing it dry and then trying again. After using way too much gold for the area, I got it all covered, but it looks really rough. I put it away in disgust and plan on looking at it again tonight. Any helpful hints, I am making a scroll for a friend as a secret for an event in three weekends from now and would like it to look spiff. Failenn MacFergus =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:56:17 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Japanese calligraphy?? I am trying to help a scribe who wants to do a specific style of Japanese calligraphy called Kaisho. Does anyone know of any resources, either online or books? Any help greatly appreciated :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:09:15 -0500 From: "Mark" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Japanese calligraphy?? I don't know if you've checked this website, but it has many references to Kaisho. You can study online for free, and it looks pretty comprehensive. It may not be the answer, but looks like a good place to start. I had the impression that beginners practice in Kaisho before moving on? http://joyo96.org/ Faelen =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 11:26:12 -0600 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: gold leaf help please > On Saturday > night when I sat down to get to business, the little balls took ok, but the > two large areas wouldn't take the gold. I blew and I cursed and I ended up > repainting my glue-stuff on and blowing it dry and then trying again. Yes, this has happened to me! I've done the "elmer's" white glue size - picked that trick up from Kathleen Allen (sp?) years and years ago when I first started scribing. 1) Don't use very much water, if any at all. White glue is a great sub for raised gesso, but I think glaire or gum ammoniac or shell gold are better for flat stuff (YMMV), and of course, of those three only the shell gold will burnish... If you gold is not sticking to your white glue size, try leaving out the red color. If you use ink for the red, some of the vehicles in certain inks will destroy the casein chemistry in the white glue that makes it sticky. You can also try adding a few drops of honey or kayro (sp?) syrup to bring the stickiness of your white glue back up - and neither will detract from the chemistry of the agluetenant in the glue. Strange as this may sound, adding a little egg white or egg yolk or both (but not at the same time, do the whites first, trust me on this one - they should be added separately - it's a chemistry thing) will also help. White glue plus a sugared syrup plus egg - think of it as mordant egg nogg ;-) ;-) ;-) The problem with adding the egg bits is that the mordant must be gilded on that day once it's been applied. I've played with both additions, back when I was experimenting with mordants, and just the honey or syrup should suffice to help the white glue along - but not diluting it and not adding any red will keep it sufficiently sticking in the first place. I don't like the leaf with the paper backing personally. I really like the leaf gold much better - but you need a minimum of absolutely no draughts where you leaf (even breathing can screw up your leaf gold), and if you live in a really dry place, the leaf will be tempermental, to say the least. If your gilding environoment is too dry, you can build up an electrostatic charge on the surface of the gold as you manuvere it onto the mordant, and if there is insufficient moisture in the air or on the mordant surface to disturb that charge, you run the risk of "floating" the leaf above the mordant on essentially a cushion of electrons. Yes, quantum mechanical effects of electron bonding can screw up your gilding... Gotta stay moist and humid near that gilding surface, or your leaf is doomed...especially if you're using paper backed leaf. My experience has been that the loose gold will often stick better than the paper backed variety - sometimes that paper backing doesn't want to let go of the gold, especially if the gold has been stored with pressure on it - like having it put in a "safe place" between two books, or with other art supplies piled on top of it. Paper-backed leaf exists mainly for "industrial," and not fine arts applications - like gilding office glass, furniture, ceilings and roofs. It was invented to solve the problem of gilding in the wind and in draughts, using modern gold sizes adapted to "nastier" surfaces (metal, glass, wood, ceramics, polished rocks, etc) than vellum or paper...and is usually applied to wet sizes, and not the hygroscopic mordants like real gesso which we like to use in the SCA. But when it comes down to using paper-backed vs. loose leaf gold, we wade out into the realm of personal preference, so again YMMV... just my 2 cents ttfn, Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:44:37 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: gold leaf help please Working with loose-leaf gold takes practice, but I feel it is worth the effort. I no longer even use patent-gold at all, to be honest. I have a lot more luck getting the gold to stick when it is loose, than I have ever had with Patent. I use a gilding pad and a gilders knife to cut the loose leaf into about 16 small pieces. Instead of using a guilders tip, which I think are clumsy and useless for most small work, I just use a pair of electronics tweezers to move my gold off the pad and into position. The results after burnishing are worth every second of hassle. just keep at it, keep practicing. Cystennin - -----Original Message----- From: Sampson, Maureen (CC/DLM) [mailto:MSampson@cc.nih.gov] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:51 AM To: 'scribes@castle.org' Subject: [scribes]: gold leaf help please > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:19:54 EDT > From: KMcWhyte@aol.com > Subject: [scribes]: Time spent on scrolls (was value of scrolls) > > and was also my first attempt at gilding. > > Hopefully next time, I'll have more time to practice gilding before > jumping > into it again. > > I am also working on practically my first attempt at gilding. I did it once with my mentor using her supplies, but this time I went out and bought my own stuff and did it by myself. Ugh! I bought the wrong kind of gold - - the type not backed on the paper - you know the type that seizes up into a crumpled mess as soon as you open the book. Then I tried to make my own size. My mentor had one that worked great. It was (don't cringe) Elmer's glue watered down with a couple of drops of red ink thrown in. Well, I used that on Friday night and set it aside to be completely dry. On Saturday night when I sat down to get to business, the little balls took ok, but the two large areas wouldn't take the gold. I blew and I cursed and I ended up repainting my glue-stuff on and blowing it dry and then trying again. After using way too much gold for the area, I got it all covered, but it looks really rough. I put it away in disgust and plan on looking at it again tonight. Any helpful hints, I am making a scroll for a friend as a secret for an event in three weekends from now and would like it to look spiff. Failenn MacFergus =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:38:48 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: My Cats are getting turned into Fur Coats! Yes, They are doomed. There name is MUD. They will be lucky if I don't pick the flesh off their bones with a fondue fork, after their little stunt last night! I am not even going to feel guilty about taking to the VET next week for their flea dipping. In fact, I am going to make fun of them, all the way there and back! One of them decided that my mix-water jar offended him, and knocked it over... right onto the scroll I was working on. It is, needless to say, completely RUINED. *sigh* Just thought I would share my pain a little. Cystennin, Erstwhile Cat owner =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:34:50 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: gold leaf help please Greetings Catie, Theresia et al, > I've done the "elmer's" white glue size - picked that trick up from Kathleen > Allen (sp?) years and years ago when I first started scribing. 1) Don't use > very much water, if any at all. White glue is a great sub for raised gesso, > but I think glaire or gum ammoniac or shell gold are better for flat stuff > (YMMV), and of course, of those three only the shell gold will burnish... > > If you gold is not sticking to your white glue size, try leaving out the red color. > If you use ink for the red, some of the vehicles in certain inks will destroy the > casein chemistry in the white glue that makes it sticky. > Insead of Elmers, try PVA. For flat gilding, there's PVA size, a thinner solution intended for sizing canvas. FOr the added colour, use Dr. Martin's Hydrus liquid watercolours. Another possibility is Golden's GAC 100, but it needs to be diluted for flat gilding. > I don't like the leaf with the paper backing personally. It's called "patent gold" and works on the stickier grounds, such as gum amoniac or garlic juice. For traditional gesso you need loose leaf gold, because the gesso isn't sticky enough to pull gold off the paper. Paper & Ink books carries a German brand that comes in a smaller size - about 2" square, wchich is easier to handle. >Paper-backed leaf exists mainly for "industrial," and not > fine arts applications - like gilding office glass, furniture, ceilings and roofs. > It was invented to solve the problem of gilding in the wind and in draughts, > using modern gold sizes adapted to "nastier" surfaces (metal, glass, wood, > ceramics, polished rocks, etc) than vellum or paper...and is usually applied > to wet sizes, and not the hygroscopic mordants like real gesso which we > like to use in the SCA. True, patent gold is for "gilding in the wind", but except for the backing, it's identical to loose leaf and once it's been applied there's no difference. I used to lay the leaf out on a cushion and cut with a gilder's knife in the approved manner, but now I often use a shortcut. I carefully detatch the leaf, paper and all, from the book, handling it by the corners and placing it on the cushion paper and all (or just on a clean paper or whatever is handy). Then I cut it into conveniently size bits with scissors. I use very good scissors, and clean the blades with acetone before I start, and at the least hint of the gold sticking to them. I lift the pieces, paper and all, with tweezers (also cleaned with acetone) and remove the paper only after it has been pressed into place. Then I burnish as usual. Unless it's on traditional gesso, I burnish only through glassine. I've tried a few of the new ready-made gold sizes such as Aqua-Size that are ready in half an hour or less and open for 24 hours or longer, but I didn't like them. They tend to show brushstrokes and have a rubberiness that makes them impossible to scrape smooth. Corinna Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:12:02 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: gold leaf help please Also, I have noticed that once you figure out how to "tweak" your gesso or Gum Ammoniac, that the results are always worth it. :-) I have never specifically used the Elmers method myself, but from what I have seen, it seems to be somewhat hit and miss. Have you tried Gesso? De Art Illuminandi has a very nice description of making and using gesso. - -----Original Message----- From: Ken Stoner [mailto:kenstone@microsoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 10:45 AM To: Sampson, Maureen (CC/DLM); scribes@castle.org Subject: RE: [scribes]: gold leaf help please Working with loose-leaf gold takes practice, but I feel it is worth the effort. I no longer even use patent-gold at all, to be honest. I have a lot more luck getting the gold to stick when it is loose, than I have ever had with Patent. I use a gilding pad and a gilders knife to cut the loose leaf into about 16 small pieces. Instead of using a guilders tip, which I think are clumsy and useless for most small work, I just use a pair of electronics tweezers to move my gold off the pad and into position. The results after burnishing are worth every second of hassle. just keep at it, keep practicing. Cystennin - -----Original Message----- From: Sampson, Maureen (CC/DLM) [mailto:MSampson@cc.nih.gov] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:51 AM To: 'scribes@castle.org' Subject: [scribes]: gold leaf help please > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:19:54 EDT > From: KMcWhyte@aol.com > Subject: [scribes]: Time spent on scrolls (was value of scrolls) > > and was also my first attempt at gilding. > > Hopefully next time, I'll have more time to practice gilding before > jumping > into it again. > > I am also working on practically my first attempt at gilding. I did it once with my mentor using her supplies, but this time I went out and bought my own stuff and did it by myself. Ugh! I bought the wrong kind of gold - - the type not backed on the paper - you know the type that seizes up into a crumpled mess as soon as you open the book. Then I tried to make my own size. My mentor had one that worked great. It was (don't cringe) Elmer's glue watered down with a couple of drops of red ink thrown in. Well, I used that on Friday night and set it aside to be completely dry. On Saturday night when I sat down to get to business, the little balls took ok, but the two large areas wouldn't take the gold. I blew and I cursed and I ended up repainting my glue-stuff on and blowing it dry and then trying again. After using way too much gold for the area, I got it all covered, but it looks really rough. I put it away in disgust and plan on looking at it again tonight. Any helpful hints, I am making a scroll for a friend as a secret for an event in three weekends from now and would like it to look spiff. Failenn MacFergus =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #16 ****************************