From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #14 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Saturday, September 29 2001 Volume 07 : Number 014 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls RE: [scribes]: value of scrolls [scribes]: Time spent on scrolls (was value of scrolls) [scribes]: parchment treatment Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment [scribes]: about the 1500's book raffle in Marinus Re: [scribes]: about the 1500's book raffle in Marinus Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment Re: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment [scribes]: Parchment trials (was value of scrolls) Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:46:53 -0400 From: John Stracke Subject: Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls RenScribe@aol.com wrote: >I would like to include a specific dollar amount that a professional artist >charges per hour. Can anyone give me a number? > My lady wife was recently Laurelled, and put up a page about her scroll. She and Mistress Dorren, who did it, worked that it took about 43 hours; Dorren says her professional rate would be $50/hr, so, with materials, the scroll would have cost about $2300. http://www.virtue.to/articles/laurel/scroll.html - -- /=================================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |HTML OK | |Francois Thibault |============================================| |East Kingdom |That is correct. I'm out of fuel. My landing| |francis@thibault.org|gear is jammed. And there's an unhappy bald | | |eagle loose in the cockpit. | \=================================================================/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:25:51 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: RE: [scribes]: value of scrolls But Gutenberg was also printed, Cystennin, not hand calligraphed. So that might have made the overall cost considerably cheaper. After all, that's one of the reasons the printing press was such a revolution - it made making books so cheap the average person could afford to buy them. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of War... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 18:19:54 EDT From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Time spent on scrolls (was value of scrolls) Greetings all. I just finished an award for Coronation this weekend, and tallied up the hours after each stage along the way; Eibhlin's estimate comes pretty close to where this one landed. (As written on the back of the scroll) "Design Concept: 2 seconds. Wording: 7 1/2 hrs. Calligraphy: 4 1/2 hrs. Layout: 1 1/2 hrs. Paint: 8 hrs. Gilding: 5 hrs. * Total hours spent on this scroll: Approx. 27-28. Look on the recipient's face.... priceless." (*cheated, used hairdryer on permacoll/miracle gesso) The scroll was done on the last remaining piece of parchment given to me by Alex the Scribe (thank you again), and was also my first attempt at gilding. While I wasn't quite satisfied with the results, I also realize that this being my first time using the real thing, it wasn't going to be perfect, either. Silly me, I let someone talk me into using the 24 kt leaf I had invested in, instead of saving time and using the Testor's enamel on white gouache. It does look better, though (than the Testor's). As far as that part about the hairdryer goes.... At the advice of Lady Alaron out here, (one of my housemates in Black Fletch and fellow conspirator scribe) I used a piece of tightly rolled-up paper to focus my breath on the permacoll when it was dried. This way the air coming out was not only focused, but the moisture in my breath would be mostly absorbed by the paper tube. Ordinarily, I wouldn't use a hairdryer to dry my paints unless I was REALLY that pressed for time, which I was, after several 2am bedtimes (and falling asleep at work when I forgot to get coffee one morning). Ah the labors of love.... You can always tell when I've been sucked into the project. The laundry starts piling up, chores get neglected, bedtimes ignored, and nodding off in mid-stroke while painting. It doesn't stop me from doing this though. I still had fun, and will continue the "torment" in another two weeks, after I pass out here. Hopefully next time, I'll have more time to practice gilding before jumping into it again. ~Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) E.Frank, Long Island, NY =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:33:10 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: [scribes]: parchment treatment I bought a whole goatskin of parchment from Master John the Artificer at Pennsic. It's a little greasy still, and there are some parts of it that are a little dark (not too bad, just a little grey). Can anyone give me ideas on making this better to work with? I'm more concerned about the oils than about the color. I don't want trouble with paint and gesso "floating" off of it. Does it just need more sanding, or should I treat it with something? I'm not planning to use it any time soon, but thought I'd ask ahead of time so I can get it in better usable shape against the day I want to use it. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of War... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:38:11 -0500 From: "ELIZABETH DUPUY" Subject: Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1479C.B494B780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good grief! Have I got the wrong job. Wish I could do scrolls for a = price. Could use the supplement income. But, I'm content to paint = pre-printed Kingdom scrolls (did 40-45 within a 3 year span), until = brave enough to try my hand at designing an original. Elspeth la Faire, AoA,CMC Shire Glaedenfeld, Nashville, TN - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: KATAKIRA@aol.com=20 To: RenScribe@aol.com ; scribes@castle.org=20 Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls Most of the professional graphic artists I've worked with charge = between $50=20 and $150 per hour, depending on the job. If it's computer rendered, = it's=20 generally $50 to $75. If it's work that's done "by hand" so to speak, = then=20 you're getting into the higher range. Decorative painting (murals and things like that on walls...) is even = more. The artist I'm currently working with said she'd charge $75 per hour = for=20 illumination of the basic Tres Heures type--the marginal art on the = text=20 pages; $120 per hour for the heavier border work on the beginning = chapter=20 pages. Katarina Peregrine Gwyntarian, Middle In a message dated 9/27/2001 1:41:16 PM, RenScribe@aol.com writes: << Greetings all I have my article about where scrolls come from and what they are = worth for=20 the AEthelmearc Kingdom newsletter, AEstel, all ready to submit = ....except.... I would like to include a specific dollar amount that a professional = artist=20 charges per hour. Can anyone give me a number? >> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. - ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1479C.B494B780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good grief!  Have = I got the=20 wrong job.  Wish I could do scrolls for a price.  = Could use=20 the supplement income.  But, I'm content to paint pre-printed = Kingdom=20 scrolls (did 40-45 within a 3 year span), until brave enough to try my = hand at=20 designing an original.
Elspeth la=20 Faire, AoA,CMC
Shire = Glaedenfeld,
Nashville, = TN
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 KATAKIRA@aol.com=20
To: RenScribe@aol.com ; scribes@castle.org
Sent: Thursday, September 27, = 2001 2:16=20 PM
Subject: Re: [scribes]: value = of=20 scrolls

Most of the professional graphic artists I've worked = with=20 charge between $50
and $150 per hour, depending on the job. If = it's=20 computer rendered, it's
generally $50 to $75. If it's work that's = done "by=20 hand" so to speak, then
you're getting into the higher=20 range.

Decorative painting (murals and things like that on = walls...) is=20 even more.

The artist I'm currently working with said she'd = charge $75=20 per hour for
illumination of the basic Tres Heures type--the = marginal art=20 on the text
pages; $120 per hour for the heavier border work on = the=20 beginning chapter
pages.

Katarina Peregrine
Gwyntarian,=20 Middle


In a message dated 9/27/2001 1:41:16 PM, RenScribe@aol.com = writes:

<<=20 Greetings all

I have my article about where scrolls come from = and what=20 they are worth for
the AEthelmearc Kingdom newsletter, AEstel, all = ready=20 to submit ....except....

I would like to include a specific = dollar=20 amount that a professional artist
charges per hour. Can anyone = give me a=20 number?=20 = >>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
= To=20 unsubscribe from this list, send email to <majordomo@castle.org>
with= a=20 blank Subject: line and
unsubscribe scribes
in the body of the = message.=20 Do not include any additional text in
the=20 body.

- ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C1479C.B494B780-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:30:03 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment - --part1_d5.ca00d21.28e5e36b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I bought one of those goatskin parchents too. I have not even pulled it out of the bag yet to look at it. So, please send your tips to the list or to me too. Master John said it had been sanded and pounced a little bit, but could probably stand to be done some more. So, where does one get pounce from? What do you sand it with? How much should you sand it? I have never worked with vellum or real parchment before so I have no idea what to do with it. Thanks in advance for your help. Brandy (Deputy Clerk of the Signet, Atlantia) - --part1_d5.ca00d21.28e5e36b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I bought one of those goatskin parchents too. I have not even pulled it out of the bag yet to look at it. So, please send your tips to the list or to me too.

Master John said it had been sanded and pounced a little bit, but could probably stand to be done some more.

So, where does one get pounce from? What do you sand it with? How much should you sand it?

I have never worked with vellum or real parchment before so I have no idea what to do with it.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Brandy
(Deputy Clerk of the Signet, Atlantia) - --part1_d5.ca00d21.28e5e36b_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:42:46 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment If you pounce with pumice, you will just be sanding the surface, which is NOT what you want to do. Abrasive pouncing is for getting the ink to bite the page a little more, like on the hair (smooth) side of the skin. Sanding raises a little nap. Too much nap and your ink will bleed. Another pounce is gum sandarac. You need to be countering the grease, not spreading it around. RanthulfR BRNDALSTON@aol.com wrote: > > I bought one of those goatskin parchents too. I have not even pulled > it out of the bag yet to look at it. So, please send your tips to the > list or to me too. > > Master John said it had been sanded and pounced a little bit, but > could probably stand to be done some more. > > So, where does one get pounce from? What do you sand it with? How much > should you sand it? > > I have never worked with vellum or real parchment before so I have no > idea what to do with it. > > Thanks in advance for your help. > Brandy > (Deputy Clerk of the Signet, Atlantia) - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:05:11 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: about the 1500's book raffle in Marinus - --part1_c1.1497a833.28e5f9b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To those who are interested in owning a book written in the 1500's for $1.00 it is not too late. The Seneschal of Marinus just put this on our baronial list: Donovan wrote: "Between the confusion caused by the Society Exchequer's proposed policy and Real World events, we the Barony of Marinus have decided to postpone the Drawing for the book "Martyrologium". We first contacted all those who purchased tickets and sought their permission, they all graciously gave permission for this proposal and I thank them. This also allows those who thought they had missed the opportunity to purchase tickets a chance to send for them. Please forward this to as many other lists as you are will and pass to your folks." >> Here is a copy of the last posting I did on it, with a few changes: Greetings unto the scribes of the Known World: A couple months ago I posted a message about a period book that the Barony of Marinus in Atlantia bought and was raffling off at $1.00 per ticket. There followed some discussion about not being able to sell tickets due to the new proposed policy of the Society Exchequer. This policy was not approved by the board, and therefore we are allowed to sell tickets Society wide. So, the raffle is back on and the date for the raffle WAS Sept. 29 at A Viking Thing in Atlantia but has been postponed. The new date for the Raffle has not been announced yet. (You do not need to be present to win) The book was written in the 1500's and is a reprint of an older work. It has woodblock prints, not hand illumination. It has been printed and not hand calligraphied (from what I can tell). It is in Latin. It is about the saints and their symbols and stories. There are three sections to it. Some introductory information about the book and links to photos of pages can be found at: http://marinus.atlantia.sca.org/misc/martyr/martyr.html Additional information about the book, its author, and its publisher can be found at: http://marinus.atlantia.sca.org/misc/martyr/book.html You can mail your money for the tickets to: Lady Felicia Catriona Morgan (Barbara G. Dodge) 8044 Kirby Haigh Circle Norfolk VA 23518 (757) 588-8753 awench2000@yahoo.com Please include your mailing address (A SASE for the tickets would be nice too) so Lady Felicia can mail your tickets back and get in touch with you for shipping arrangements should you win. This is a fundraiser for the Barony of Marinus. The proceeds will go towards purchasing a new pavillion to replace the one that did not fair so well this year at Pennsic. (Not to mention the tumble over the ravine on the way home from Pennsic). If raffles are prohibited by law where you live, please do not purchase a ticket. Please check with your local law before you send in any money to avoid possible legal complications. Thanks for your support! Brandy (Lady Brandwyn Alston of the Rift - Marinus Scriptorium) - --part1_c1.1497a833.28e5f9b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To those who are interested in owning a book written in the 1500's for $1.00 it is not too late. The Seneschal of Marinus just put this on our baronial list:

Donovan wrote:

"Between the confusion caused by the Society Exchequer's proposed policy and
Real World events, we the Barony of Marinus have decided to postpone the
Drawing for the book "Martyrologium". We first contacted all those who
purchased tickets and sought their permission, they all graciously gave
permission for this proposal and I thank them. This also allows those who
thought they had missed the opportunity to purchase tickets a chance to send
for them.  Please forward this to as many other lists as you are will and pass to your folks."
>>
Here is a copy of the last posting I did on it, with a few changes:
Greetings unto the scribes of the Known World:

A couple months ago I posted a message about a period book that the Barony of Marinus in Atlantia bought and was raffling off at $1.00 per ticket. There followed some discussion about not being able to sell tickets due to the new proposed policy of the Society Exchequer. This policy was not approved by the board, and therefore we are allowed to sell tickets Society wide. So, the raffle is back on and the date for the raffle WAS Sept. 29 at A Viking Thing in Atlantia but has been postponed. The new date for the Raffle has not been announced yet. (You do not need to be present to win)

The book was written in the 1500's and is a reprint of an older work. It has woodblock prints, not hand illumination. It has been printed and not hand calligraphied (from what I can tell). It is in Latin. It is about the saints and their symbols and stories. There are three sections to it.

Some introductory information about the book and links to photos of pages
can be found at:
http://marinus.atlantia.sca.org/misc/martyr/martyr.html

Additional information about the book, its author, and its publisher can be
found at:
http://marinus.atlantia.sca.org/misc/martyr/book.html

You can mail your money for the tickets to:


Lady Felicia Catriona Morgan (Barbara G. Dodge)
8044 Kirby Haigh Circle
Norfolk VA 23518
(757) 588-8753 awench2000@yahoo.com

Please include your mailing address (A SASE for the tickets would be nice too) so Lady Felicia can mail your tickets back and get in touch with you for shipping arrangements should you win.

This is a fundraiser for the Barony of Marinus. The proceeds will go towards purchasing a new pavillion to replace the one that did not fair so well this year at Pennsic. (Not to mention the tumble over the ravine on the way home from Pennsic).

If raffles are prohibited by law where you live, please do not purchase a ticket. Please check with your local law before you send in any money to avoid possible legal complications.

Thanks for your support!
Brandy
(Lady Brandwyn Alston of the Rift - Marinus Scriptorium)
- --part1_c1.1497a833.28e5f9b7_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:52:57 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: about the 1500's book raffle in Marinus >>There followed some discussion about not being able to sell tickets due to the new proposed policy of the Society Exchequer. This policy was not approved by the board, and therefore we are allowed to sell tickets Society wide.<< Actually, the policy wasn't rejected, they just remanded it back and asked me to reword it. It's being resubmitted for the October meeting. Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of War... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:55:04 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment >>If you pounce with pumice, you will just be sanding the surface, which is NOT what you want to do. Abrasive pouncing is for getting the ink to bite the page a little more, like on the hair (smooth) side of the skin. Sanding raises a little nap. Too much nap and your ink will bleed. Another pounce is gum sandarac. You need to be countering the grease, not spreading it around.<< So, Ranthulfr, are you saying that to further prepare these skins we should pounce them with gum sandarac? Or should we sand them a little more and then pounce? I'd personally like to have my parchment a little thinner, but I suspect that would involve restretching it which I'm not prepared to do, even if it can be done at this late stage. Where can I get gum sandarac? Tetchubah Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of War... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:14:19 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment Hi Tetchubah, OK, I'll go into it deeper. First, sanding or pouncing for abrasion will raise a nap that will allow paints to get a better grip on a slightly greasy surface. My previous message was a bit vague. Sorry, I was just trying to warn about not abrading it too far. The problem is that the more you abrade the surface, the more likely it is that you will break open the mushed down fibers of the flesh side and have the ink start to bleed. Pounces include fine powdered pumice, chalk, sandarac and colophony (rosin). None of these are water soluble, so don't think that the rosin or the sandarac are actually helping glue anything down. I think what they are doing is being lightly rubbed in to absorb the extra greasiness on the skin. That's my take on it anyway. If I were microscopic and down in there I would know, but in lieu of that we have to ask or tech members why it works. Anyway, you will absolutely want to remove the pounce before writing or painting. Hopefully some of the grease will go with it, and the nap raised will be just right. The old timers used to use a feather so as not to get hand oils on the page again and to really brush it out of the nap. A drafting brush ought to work fine if it is stiff enough. Feathers are stiffer. There was a discussion about erasing with bread a little earlier. This "bread" actually isn't regular old bread, but it is supposed to be an excellent remover of greasiness on parchment. It is actually a high proportion of powdered glass mixed with flour and brewer's yeast. You mix it up, let it rise, and bake it like bread. Mmmmm, yummy! There is another fix, especially if you sanded too much. You can size the page more (for you paint-jargon challenged, "size" refers to glue or binder, such as a preliminary sealing coat or the glue in paper that holds fibers together) by rubbing some moist sheet of hide or fish glue onto the page. Or you can be so bold as to smear hide glue gelatin on it or even brush on a layer of it. I suggest that you wipe such an application down though. You need very little to do the job, and the last thing you want on there is a thick layer of something brittle. Good luck and happy degreasing! RanthulfR Carolyn_Richardson@prosystemfx.com wrote: > > >>If you pounce with pumice, you will just be sanding the surface, which > is NOT what you want to do. Abrasive pouncing is for getting the ink to > bite the page a little more, like on the hair (smooth) side of the skin. > Sanding raises a little nap. Too much nap and your ink will bleed. > > Another pounce is gum sandarac. You need to be countering the grease, > not spreading it around.<< > > So, Ranthulfr, are you saying that to further prepare these skins we should > pounce them with gum sandarac? Or should we sand them a little more and > then pounce? I'd personally like to have my parchment a little thinner, > but I suspect that would involve restretching it which I'm not prepared to > do, even if it can be done at this late stage. > > Where can I get gum sandarac? > > Tetchubah > > Cry "Bother" and let loose the Poohs of War... - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:11:53 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions! I have plenty to track down now. =) - --Muireann On 27 Sep 01, at 6:48, Laurel Anderson wrote: > "Italian Renaissance Illuminations" by J.J.G. Alexander- published by > George Braziller has late Italian Ren - a lot of trompe l'oiel (I just > know I spelled that wrong) monument type stuff. The last chapter of > Christopher de Hamel's "History of Illuminated Manuscripts" has some > nice whitevine and also the later style. His book is great overview > of European illumination too. For the calligraphy check out Brown and > Lovett's "Historical Source Book for Scribes" it has a couple of > Ital.Ren hands. This book was reviewed in TI a few issues back. > > Averil d'Avignon > Citadel of the Southern Pass, Outlands > > Subject: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources > > > > Greetings! > > > > I am beginning research on a 15th century Italian persona, and I'm > > looking for information on Books of Hours, preferably from Florence. > > Pictures would be great! I have information already on the Sforza > > Hours and the Visconti Hours, but anything else would be > > appreciated. > > > > I'm also looking for information on Italian secretary-type hands, > > something that would have been used in everyday life, such as > > writing letters. If there's any kind of all-encompassing "Italian > > Calligraphy in the 15th Century" type book, that would be awesome! > > But if not, I'll take whatever I can get. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > --Muireann ni Riordain > > Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia > > > > =================================================================== To > unsubscribe from this list, send email to with > a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the > message. Do not include any additional text in the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:55:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment Hi all, I bought a skin of sheepskin parchment from the Gabriel Guild at Pennsic, so I have been eagerly awaiting information on this subject. Randy, your explanation did help a little, but I think I'm even more a beginner than you think. For instance, how does one go about 'pouncing' anything? (What I understand the term to mean would never result in anything even remotely resembling a sanding action, hence my question.) I also bought some spam vellum (from the Limner's Guild--they called it "opaline vellum"). How should I prepare it? Does it even need anything? Please be as basic and step-by-step as you can stand to be. The care and feeding of parchment is not something that comes intuitively in this day and age. :) TIA, Martha Shire of Darach/Caid - --- Randy Asplund wrote: > Pounces include fine powdered pumice, chalk, sandarac and colophony > (rosin). None of these are water soluble, so don't think that the rosin > or the sandarac are actually helping glue anything down. I think what > they are doing is being lightly rubbed in to absorb the extra greasiness > on the skin. That's my take on it anyway. If I were microscopic and down > in there I would know, but in lieu of that we have to ask or tech > members why it works. Anyway, you will absolutely want to remove the > pounce before writing or painting. Hopefully some of the grease will go > with it, and the nap raised will be just right. The old timers used to > use a feather so as not to get hand oils on the page again and to really > brush it out of the nap. A drafting brush ought to work fine if it is > stiff enough. Feathers are stiffer. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:41:53 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment Hello Martha, Pounce powder is put into a bag of fabric that is loose enough in weave that you can shake the pounce or bounce the bag onto the parchment so that some of the powder falls through. Then you can rub it around with the bag. Of course the bag shouldn't be so open a weave as to leave lint when you do this. The bag is about the size of a baseball or smaller, and it is tied at the top. You can make it from a circle of fabric gathered at the top. After you rub the powder into the page with the bag, brush it away with a drafting brush or a feather, or any other clean, reasonable, lint free brush. RanthulfR Martha Palotay wrote: > > Hi all, > > I bought a skin of sheepskin parchment from the Gabriel Guild at Pennsic, so I > have been eagerly awaiting information on this subject. Randy, your explanation > did help a little, but I think I'm even more a beginner than you think. > > For instance, how does one go about 'pouncing' anything? (What I understand the > term to mean would never result in anything even remotely resembling a sanding > action, hence my question.) > > I also bought some spam vellum (from the Limner's Guild--they called it > "opaline vellum"). How should I prepare it? Does it even need anything? > > Please be as basic and step-by-step as you can stand to be. The care and > feeding of parchment is not something that comes intuitively in this day and > age. :) > > TIA, > > Martha > Shire of Darach/Caid > > --- Randy Asplund wrote: > > Pounces include fine powdered pumice, chalk, sandarac and colophony > > (rosin). None of these are water soluble, so don't think that the rosin > > or the sandarac are actually helping glue anything down. I think what > > they are doing is being lightly rubbed in to absorb the extra greasiness > > on the skin. That's my take on it anyway. If I were microscopic and down > > in there I would know, but in lieu of that we have to ask or tech > > members why it works. Anyway, you will absolutely want to remove the > > pounce before writing or painting. Hopefully some of the grease will go > > with it, and the nap raised will be just right. The old timers used to > > use a feather so as not to get hand oils on the page again and to really > > brush it out of the nap. A drafting brush ought to work fine if it is > > stiff enough. Feathers are stiffer. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. > http://phone.yahoo.com > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:33:32 -0700 From: "Eva Mehlhose" Subject: [scribes]: Parchment trials (was value of scrolls) > Look on the recipient's face.... priceless." I do believe that is exactly why all of us do this....grinning ear to ear...... > The scroll was done on the last remaining piece of parchment given to me by > Alex the Scribe (thank you again), To all who ended up taking some home from Pennsic... how did you fare with it? Curious inquiring minds wanna know..... and was also my first attempt at gilding. Congratulations. It is fun, isn't it? I used a piece of tightly rolled-up paper to focus my breath on the > permacoll when it was dried. A dear friend of mine has me hooked on.....toilet paper roll innards...condensed , heavy and short enough to do the job....does look hilarious though when you got one in front of your mouth and friends walk into the studio. Alex, the scribe, who is exhausted after battling with 30 cyphers and sigils .... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 12:17:54 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: parchment treatment - --part1_18.130c04d4.28e74e32_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/28/2001 7:45:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, randyaf@provide.net writes: > Hello Martha, > > Pounce powder is put into a bag of fabric that is loose enough in weave > that you can shake the pounce or bounce the bag onto the parchment so > that some of the powder falls through. Then you can rub it around with > the bag. Of course the bag shouldn't be so open a weave as to leave lint > when you do this. The bag is about the size of a baseball or smaller, > and it is tied at the top. You can make it from a circle of fabric > gathered at the top. > > After you rub the powder into the page with the bag, brush it away with > a drafting brush or a feather, or any other clean, reasonable, lint free > brush. > > RanthulfR RanthulfR, In your message to Tetchubah, you mentioned the different things you can use for pounce, one of those was chalk. I have a container of Calcium Carbonate powder that I use as a base for gesso. Can that be used for pounce also? Thanks, Brandy - --part1_18.130c04d4.28e74e32_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/28/2001 7:45:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, randyaf@provide.net writes:


Hello Martha,

   Pounce powder is put into a bag of fabric that is loose enough in weave
that you can shake the pounce or bounce the bag onto the parchment so
that some of the powder falls through. Then you can rub it around with
the bag. Of course the bag shouldn't be so open a weave as to leave lint
when you do this. The bag is about the size of a baseball or smaller,
and it is tied at the top. You can make it from a circle of fabric
gathered at the top.

   After you rub the powder into the page with the bag, brush it away with
a drafting brush or a feather, or any other clean, reasonable, lint free brush.

RanthulfR
RanthulfR,
In your message to Tetchubah, you mentioned the different things you can use for pounce, one of those was chalk. I have a container of Calcium Carbonate powder that I use as a base for gesso. Can that be used for pounce also?

Thanks,
Brandy - --part1_18.130c04d4.28e74e32_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #14 ****************************