From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #13 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, September 27 2001 Volume 07 : Number 013 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Fwd: Can you post to Scribe's for me? RE: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question [scribes]: Web Site Moved (and Updated) Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question Re: [scribes]: Re:teaching gold leaf [scribes]: scrolls [scribes]: Caidan Scribal Question [scribes]: 2002 International Calligraphy Conference Scholarship announcement Re: [scribes]: scrolls [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources Fwd: Re: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources Re: [scribes]:Quill information (was Greetings and a question) [scribes]: Re: Looking for Italian sources Re: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources [scribes]: Re: Looking for Italian sources [scribes]: value of scrolls Re: [scribes]: Questions about how to charge for commissioned pieces. (fwd) Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls RE: [scribes]: value of scrolls Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls Re: [scribes]: teaching gold leaf Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:35:59 -0500 (CDT) From: sburnell@raex.com Subject: [scribes]: Fwd: Can you post to Scribe's for me? - ---- Forwarded message from "KJ Karen Johnson (1624)" ---- Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:24:05 -0400 From: "KJ Karen Johnson (1624)" To: "'saradwen@raex.com'" ,"'sburnell@raex.com'" Subject: Can you post to Scribe's for me? Can't from the desk I'm at--heard upstairs in Creative today that Paper and Ink Books have changed their webaddress & are sending out new spiffy color catalogs! new web address: www.paperandinkarts.com New catalog due out mid-October, should be hitting mailboxes in the Middle Kingdom around Oct. 30... Katarina - ------ End forwarded message ------ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:27:28 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question King Renee's Book of Love? Will this have some cool stuff in it? ... I don't have a copy yet. :-( - -----Original Message----- From: Laura Peskett [mailto:2rozakii@home.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 9:38 AM To: Scribes List Subject: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question I was hoping that someone on this wonderful list could help me. :-) We're invited to a wedding next month and money is a bit tight. I was thinking of doing a nice scroll for their gift. Does anyone know of any period love and/or marriage poems? Or has anyone done something similar for friends and what did you do? Thanks a bunch for any help! Tzitzakion (Laura Peskett) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:34:44 -0300 From: "Rick Gaigneur" Subject: [scribes]: Web Site Moved (and Updated) Greetings to the list! For any of you who have visited, plan to visit, or have web pages with links to my Scribal Gallery web site, please note that it has been moved to its new home at http://www.ricks-place.ca . The old site will be around for a while, but it will not be updated, and probably won't stay around for long. I have, in the process of transferring it, updated it with some newly scanned scrolls, mostly recent works. If you have been to the site before, and just want to take a look at the latest additions, skip to http://www.ricks-place.ca/illumination.htm where there is a summary of the new stuff. By the way, although I think I've tested it reasonably thoroughly, and it looks like the migration from the two or three servers it used to be scattered across came together intact, I would appreciate knowing about any broken links, missing files or pages, etc. Thank you! Master Aetheric Lindberende, Shire of Lyndhaven, East Kingdom gaigneur@fundy.net =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:31:32 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question > I was hoping that someone on this wonderful list could help me. :-) We're > invited to a wedding next month and money is a bit tight. I was thinking of > doing a nice scroll for their gift. Does anyone know of any period love > and/or marriage poems? Or has anyone done something similar for friends and > what did you do? Here is one that I have used for a wedding scroll for the head of our Household, who was married last year about this time: Honour, riches, marriage blessing, Long continuance and increasing, Hourly joys be still upon you! Juno sings her blessings on you! Earth's increase, foison plenty, Barns and garners never empty; Vines with clustering bunches growing; Plants with goodly burthen bowiing; Spring come to you at the farthest In the very end of harvest! Scarcity and want shall shun you, Ceres blessing so is on you. - -Act IV, Scene I, The Tempest (William Shakespeare) Since the wedding I did this for was an autumn wedding, I felt that this verse was somehow appropriate. It summoned the mental picture of a farm with the barn full of the harvest of the land and the idea that there was more than enough to get through the winter and well into the next spring, and of a newly married couple knowing that they would have plenty to eat and would not know want or hunger as a result of the riches of the harvest. One can also interpret it other ways as well, but I leave that to your collective imaginations! :-) ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 20:56:09 -0400 From: "Laura Peskett" <2rozakii@home.com> Subject: Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question A great big thank you to everyone for your help! Now I get the hard decision of picking just one! :-) Thanks!!! Tzitzakion =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:10:14 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question > King Renee's Book of Love? Will this have some cool stuff in it? ... > I don't have a copy yet. :-( Oh, I do! Gorgeous book, and one well worth having in one's library! It's a real jewel! Get yourself a copy if you can - it's not that expensive! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:03:27 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: OT: Slightly off-topic question Tzitzakion: I've done some wonderful things with the actual wedding announcement as a gift... you might even want to consider that. KHvS =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 23:17:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Cecelia M. Hughes" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:teaching gold leaf I've taken Mistress Eibhlin's gold leafing class twice now, and each time I've gotten more out of it. She's an excellent teacher with a hands-on style that is fantastic. (Plus, she's officially the gilding goddess of AEthelmearc, but that's another story...) Graidhne On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 RenScribe@aol.com wrote: > Gilding is not an easy subject to learn or teach. I taught myself and it took > me many sessions of trial and error. I learned more from practical > application than anyone could have taught me ... and I'm still learning new > things after 6 years of playing with it. Trying to condense all of that > knowledge into 2 hours is a trial to be sure, but I do it on a regular basis > and have fun doing it. The key is being prepared in advance. > > When I teach gilding I set aside 2 days to prepare for a class. The first day > I make the gesso and gum ammoniac. On the second day I make packets for the > class. The packets are plastic sandwich bags containing everything needed for > a person to gild (gold leaf, practice sheets, tweezers, glassine, straw, > craft knife, silk, burnisher, brushes). This saves a lot of class time. The > first 15 minutes of a class are used to explain what each material is used > for instead of spent passing them out. > > When I teach the class I take along all of the materials I use to make the > gesso and size, plenty of books to show examples of how gold was used and all > of the books listed in my bibliography. I have sample sheets that are side by > side comparisons of different ways to apply gold and gold substitutes that > show why real gold leaf is worth the time and effort. I also have a set of > samples I've made that show common errors. Instead of just talking about the > mottling that happens when the gesso is too wet or the feathered appearance > of the flaking gold when the gesso doesn't have enough moisture in it to hold > the gold down I can show what I'm talking about. The crunch of dry gesso is > hard to describe and so is the soft mushy feeling when it is too soft. > > The class is fast paced and can get hectic. > Be ready to answer a lot of questions. :-) > I'd suggest limiting the class size. You will want to move about and spend > one on one time with each person. > > Best of luck :-) > Eibhlin ni Chaoimh > AEthelmearc > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 02:13:00 EDT From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: scrolls - --part1_bc.1a70147c.28e2cbec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After our last event, I though it would be good to include in our newsletter an article on "So Now You Have an Award Scroll..." - explaining to the good gentles how to take care of their awards. I have alot of the information in my head - does anyone have an article on line? I know we've discussed it. I may be re-inventing the wheel as this may already be an article, but most around here haven't a clue with what to do with them. Any help or info is greatly appreciated. Here's a brief outline: Scroll vs. charter (preprints, how they are just as important & sometimes more delicate) The art/artist (scribes, where they get their designs, hours and what it would equal in $$) Media (guache, watercolor, inks, why you keep it out of the sun) Mounting (no dry mounting! what does archival mean?, glass styles) I can't tell you how invaluable this list has been to me. Thanks everyone. Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis. Speech is given to many, intelligence to few. web site: http:www.geocities.com/cal3260 - --part1_bc.1a70147c.28e2cbec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After our last event, I though it would be good to include in our newsletter an article on "So Now You Have an Award Scroll..." - explaining to the good gentles how to take care of their awards.  I have alot of the information in my head - does anyone have an article on line?  I know we've discussed it.  I may be re-inventing the wheel as this may already be an article, but most around here haven't a clue with what to do with them.  Any help or info is greatly appreciated.  Here's a brief outline:

Scroll vs. charter (preprints, how they are just as important & sometimes more delicate)
The art/artist (scribes, where they get their designs, hours and what it would equal in $$)
Media (guache, watercolor, inks, why you keep it out of the sun)
Mounting (no dry mounting! what does archival mean?, glass styles)

I can't tell you how invaluable this list has been to me.  Thanks everyone.

Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh

Sermo datur cunctis, animi sapientia paucis.
Speech is given to many, intelligence to few.    
web site: http:www.geocities.com/cal3260 - --part1_bc.1a70147c.28e2cbec_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 00:08:48 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: [scribes]: Caidan Scribal Question Sorry for the wide distribution... I am doing a scroll who recieved his Legion of Courtesy about 6 months after recieving his AA. For artistic reasons, I would like to include his legion of courtesy as part of the scroll design, Which is to say that I would like to show the yellow rose dependant from his shield of arms. I like the idea of having the Heralds affirmation affirm his right to bear the LOC as well as confirming his Name and Device: And here also does Crescent Prinicipal Herald confirm this name and device as being correct, and assure the bearers right to bear the token of the Legion of Courtesy in pendent from his sheild of arms, by the royal decree of Edric and Albra in AS XXXI. I think this is kind of cool, because there is not a scroll text for the LOC... Cystennin, Who is trying to get caught up on his back orders. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 07:40:50 -0700 From: "Richard" Subject: [scribes]: 2002 International Calligraphy Conference Scholarship announcement - ---=== ACA ANNOUNCEMENT ===--- The Association for the Calligraphic Arts is pleased to announce the opening of our International Calligraphy Conference Scholarship for 2002. This is a single scholarship that will provide a 50% grant for the tuition, room and board fees for the 2002 International Calligraphy Conference: "The Calligraphy Connection" to be held in Collegeville, Minnesota from June 22-29, 2002. Main Requirements: All applicants must be a current individual member of the ACA, and international members are eligible. This scholarship is based on both need and merit, and is directed towards individuals who cannot attend the Conference without partial financial help. Applications: Application packets may be requested by calling the ACA office at 219-233-6233. If you would like additional information or request an Application Packet online, then please go to the Scholarship Information Page on our website at http://CalligraphicArts.org/scholarship.html Good luck to all applicants, ACA Central http://CalligraphicArts.org =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:58:24 -0500 (CDT) From: hornburg amy lynn Subject: Re: [scribes]: scrolls I am currently working on a paper outlining time spent to make a scroll, care of one, money it would cost and materials involved. I hope to have it done for the November TI. Cu Drag, Despina ___________________________________ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 15:47:03 -0400 From: "Jessica Wilbur" Subject: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources Greetings! I am beginning research on a 15th century Italian persona, and I'm looking for information on Books of Hours, preferably from Florence. Pictures would be great! I have information already on the Sforza Hours and the Visconti Hours, but anything else would be appreciated. I'm also looking for information on Italian secretary-type hands, something that would have been used in everyday life, such as writing letters. If there's any kind of all-encompassing "Italian Calligraphy in the 15th Century" type book, that would be awesome! But if not, I'll take whatever I can get. Thanks in advance! - --Muireann ni Riordain Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 16:56:37 -0500 From: Garret Bitker Subject: Fwd: Re: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources >Greetings, >This is one I found that is nice, >Painting and Illumination in Early Renaissance Florence, 1300-1450 >The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York 1994 >isbn 0-87099-725-4 or in paperback 0-87099-726-2 >Hope that helps, >Gevehard von Baden >Northshield =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:03:34 -0400 From: "Kelley" Subject: Re: [scribes]:Quill information (was Greetings and a question) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C14797.DED947E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just wanted to thank you for all the information provided!! *slinking back into my corner to lurk* In Service to the Dream...... Leah of Newcastle - ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C14797.DED947E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just wanted to = thank you for=20 all the information provided!!
 
*slinking back = into my corner=20 to lurk*
 
In Service to the = Dream......
Leah of=20 Newcastle
- ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C14797.DED947E0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:41:11 -0400 From: Elizabeth Blatt Subject: [scribes]: Re: Looking for Italian sources At 3:47 PM -0400 9/26/01, Jessica Wilbur wrote: >Greetings! > >I am beginning research on a 15th century Italian persona, and I'm >looking for information on Books of Hours, preferably from Florence. >Pictures would be great! I have information already on the Sforza >Hours and the Visconti Hours, but anything else would be >appreciated. Here are some possible references for you, in no particular order: Cartolai, illuminators, and printers in fifteenth-century Italy: the evidence of the Ripoli Press / by M.A. Rouse and R.H. Rouse Italian illuminated manuscripts from 1400 to 1550: catalogue of an exhibition held in the Bodleian Library, Oxford 1948. / Otto Pacht Italian Renaissance illuminations / J. J. G. Alexander, 1977 The painted page: Italian Renaissance book illumination, 1450-1550 / edited by Jonathan J.G. Alexander, 1997 Painting and illumination in early Renaissance Florence, 1300-1450 / Laurence B. Kanter, 1994 Most Italian books of hours were Use of Rome, if that helps any. Are there any particular things that you're wanting to find out about (leading you to look at Books of Hours in particular)? >I'm also looking for information on Italian secretary-type hands, >something that would have been used in everyday life, such as >writing letters. If there's any kind of all-encompassing "Italian >Calligraphy in the 15th Century" type book, that would be >awesome! But if not, I'll take whatever I can get. Try: The Handwriting of Italian Humanists / A. C. de la Mare, Oxford University Press 1973 The script of humanism: some aspects of humanistic script, 1460-1560 / James Wardrop, Clarendon Press 1963 Humanist scripts are a pretty neat thing: their development is part of the overall humanist interest in antiquity--particularly Greek and Roman classical antiquity. So they tried creating new scripts that looked like something the ancients used; only they mistook Caroline miniscule for a script used by the ancients, and began copying that instead. Well-done italian-caroline miniscule can be very difficult to distinguish from caroline miniscule; some of the pointers are punctuation and a couple alternative letter shapes that were used by one and not the other (I can doublecheck on which, specifically, if wanted). The italic scripts developed out of Niccolo Niccoli's invented italic script. And the neat thing about some letters I've seen written by Italians in italic is that, while in England you wrote in Italic to seem well-educated and classy (as opposed to a secretary/bastard script), in Italy you just wrote more elaborately flourished and decorated italic (rather than switching to or from a different script) for the same purpose. Even though it isn't Italian, _Mira Calligraphiae Monumenta_ (available in facsimile or in a smaller expurgated version containing these examples, _Nature Illuminated) has several examples of italic in varying stages of elaboration, a couple of which are similar to the ones I've seen in a couple Italian Renaissance letters. Good luck--let us know how you get on! Elianora Mathewes Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, AE =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:48:00 -0600 From: "Laurel Anderson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources "Italian Renaissance Illuminations" by J.J.G. Alexander- published by George Braziller has late Italian Ren - a lot of trompe l'oiel (I just know I spelled that wrong) monument type stuff. The last chapter of Christopher de Hamel's "History of Illuminated Manuscripts" has some nice whitevine and also the later style. His book is great overview of European illumination too. For the calligraphy check out Brown and Lovett's "Historical Source Book for Scribes" it has a couple of Ital.Ren hands. This book was reviewed in TI a few issues back. Averil d'Avignon Citadel of the Southern Pass, Outlands Subject: [scribes]: Looking for Italian sources > Greetings! > > I am beginning research on a 15th century Italian persona, and I'm > looking for information on Books of Hours, preferably from Florence. > Pictures would be great! I have information already on the Sforza > Hours and the Visconti Hours, but anything else would be > appreciated. > > I'm also looking for information on Italian secretary-type hands, > something that would have been used in everyday life, such as > writing letters. If there's any kind of all-encompassing "Italian > Calligraphy in the 15th Century" type book, that would be > awesome! But if not, I'll take whatever I can get. > > Thanks in advance! > --Muireann ni Riordain > Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:52:52 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Looking for Italian sources A lot of the later period Italian books were printed. Sometimes the illumination was painted, sometimes not. A book that has many examples, both handwritten and printed work is _The Painted Page: Italian Renaissance Book Illumination 1450-1550_ by JJG Alexander. If you're looking for costuming details you might have better luck with paintings rather than manuscript illuminations. Someone already recommended _Painting and Illumination in Early Renaissance Florence, 1300-1450_ as the name implies, it's a good mix of paintings and illuminations :-) *side note- it's also an excellent book for examples of gold tooling David Harris covers the basic Italian hands really well in his book _ The Art of Calligraphy_. Italic Corsiva (or Italic Cursive) is a hand that would commonly be used for everyday notes and such. There are also some really interesting styles that combine the characteristics of Italian calligraphy hands (Humanistic Corsiva, Humanistic Rotunda, Semi Cursive) in _Bibliotheca Corviniana: The Library of Matthias Corvinus of Hungary_. There is a mix of formal and informal hands but you will have to create your own ductus from the examples. Hope this helps Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:37:06 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: value of scrolls Greetings all I have my article about where scrolls come from and what they are worth for the AEthelmearc Kingdom newsletter, AEstel, all ready to submit ....except.... I would like to include a specific dollar amount that a professional artist charges per hour. Can anyone give me a number? An interesting fact I found out while researching the article is that most scrolls here have a minimum of 25 hours worth of work in them. At Federal minimum wage that works out to $103 - just in labor. Thanks in advance Eibhlin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 13:32:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Questions about how to charge for commissioned pieces. (fwd) This is what Corinna posted last year on scribing prices. Margaret FitzWilliam - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:19:12 -0600 From: Corinna Taylor/Al Frank To: wyverns@earthlink.net, Scribes Subject: Re: [scribes]: Questions about how to charge for commissioned pieces. Just to give some perspective on pricing, here are some mundane prices: Filling in names on mass cards in a simple script in gold ink: $10.00/hour (in a convent, where the nuns take vows of poverty) Engrossing certificates, names only, with gold & gouache decorated caps - subcontracting for a studio - $15-$25/hour Engraving names on perfume bottles for in-store promotions - $25-30/hour. (Ken Brown gets $75/hour plus travel and hotel expenses from Dallas to Chicago) Filling in certificates, name only, black ink, plain hand - $2-$4 per certificate (I can do 20 in an hour) Addressing envelopes, wedding sets, copperplate or italic script - $3.00-4.50 per set (approx 15 sets per hour) Commercial jobs - advertising headlines, &c. depends on the scribe - $60/hour minimum for studio time plus reimbursement for expenses (photostats, etc). Eliza Schulte doesn't pick up a pen or brush for less than $90/hour with a three-hour minimum. Ketuba (Hebrew wedding contract) priced according to elaborateness, gilding, etc. $500 -to several thousand. Fill-in of pre-printed ketuba, in Hebrew, $90.00 for approximately 10-12 short items, names,date, etc. I hope this is helpful in pricing your scrolls. Corinna TreeGirtSea =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:51:14 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls - --part1_b0.1af19998.28e4cf22_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not a professional artist, and I don't charge by the hour for my work because no one I know is going to pay that much for my stuff. So I charge by the job. My going rate has been averaging about $50.00 for a scroll or poem set to illumination. I am probably way under-charging, but people balk at paying even that much. Brandy (Deputy Clerk of the Signet, Atlantia) - --part1_b0.1af19998.28e4cf22_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not a professional artist, and I don't charge by the hour for my work because no one I know is going to pay that much for my stuff. So I charge by the job. My going rate has been averaging about $50.00 for a scroll or poem set to illumination. I am probably way under-charging, but people balk at paying even that much.

Brandy
(Deputy Clerk of the Signet, Atlantia) - --part1_b0.1af19998.28e4cf22_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 12:00:47 -0700 From: "Ken Stoner" Subject: RE: [scribes]: value of scrolls I have charged as much as $200 for an 14x18 with: 1 large letter Arms display Moderate use of gold Gouache. I end up spending at least 40 hours per scroll. I have not charged more than this, as I do not think the market generally can support it. It is interesting, the total cost of one of the Gutenberg bibles was broken out in a piece of marginalia inside of it: For the printing/scribal work, 12(?) Guilders, For the illumination, 2 1/2 Guilders For the paper, 2 Guilders For the binding, 1 Guilder. The total cost of the book was listed as 24 Guilders. The sums don't add up, and there is speculation that the 12 guilders for the printing was inaccurate. My personal speculation is that the break-out did not include labor, only materials. - -----Original Message----- From: RenScribe@aol.com [mailto:RenScribe@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:37 AM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: [scribes]: value of scrolls Greetings all I have my article about where scrolls come from and what they are worth for the AEthelmearc Kingdom newsletter, AEstel, all ready to submit ....except.... I would like to include a specific dollar amount that a professional artist charges per hour. Can anyone give me a number? An interesting fact I found out while researching the article is that most scrolls here have a minimum of 25 hours worth of work in them. At Federal minimum wage that works out to $103 - just in labor. Thanks in advance Eibhlin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:16:17 EDT From: KATAKIRA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls Most of the professional graphic artists I've worked with charge between $50 and $150 per hour, depending on the job. If it's computer rendered, it's generally $50 to $75. If it's work that's done "by hand" so to speak, then you're getting into the higher range. Decorative painting (murals and things like that on walls...) is even more. The artist I'm currently working with said she'd charge $75 per hour for illumination of the basic Tres Heures type--the marginal art on the text pages; $120 per hour for the heavier border work on the beginning chapter pages. Katarina Peregrine Gwyntarian, Middle In a message dated 9/27/2001 1:41:16 PM, RenScribe@aol.com writes: << Greetings all I have my article about where scrolls come from and what they are worth for the AEthelmearc Kingdom newsletter, AEstel, all ready to submit ....except.... I would like to include a specific dollar amount that a professional artist charges per hour. Can anyone give me a number? >> =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 14:19:06 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls Greetings Eibhlin et al: Professional calligraphers/lettering artists charge $60-$75 an hour. sometimes more. Eliza Schulte Holliday (brilliant at brush calligraphy) charges over $100, with a three-hour minimum. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: [scribes]: value of scrolls > Greetings all > I would like to include a specific dollar amount that a professional artist > charges per hour. Can anyone give me a number? > > An interesting fact I found out while researching the article is that most > scrolls here have a minimum of 25 hours worth of work in them. At Federal > minimum wage that works out to $103 - just in labor. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:21:09 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: teaching gold leaf - --part1_10e.5c21e4e.28e4d625_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone for the great tips on teaching gold leaf. I am a bit more confident now and should be able to go face that class without too much trembling! Brandy (Deputy Clerk of the Signet - Atlantia) - --part1_10e.5c21e4e.28e4d625_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone for the great tips on teaching gold leaf. I am a bit more confident now and should be able to go face that class without too much trembling!

Brandy
(Deputy Clerk of the Signet - Atlantia) - --part1_10e.5c21e4e.28e4d625_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 15:26:29 -0400 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: value of scrolls Dear Lady Eibhlin, There is no such thing as a standard wage for a professional artist. It is all over the board. Artists work for anything from way less than minimum wage to CEO level wages. I suggest that you start with minimum wage as a base, modify upwards based on what you think your skill level is, and then negotiate up or down with the patron from there. Sorry, but there is just no right or wrong in the amounts category. People can tell you what they get, but that means little. They may be either good or bad at marketing themselves, so even finding people selling work comparable to your own can be misleading. The bottom line is you are worth what you can get people to spend because they value your work that much. I wish I could be more helpful, but it seems that a realistic and informed answer was better than a stab in the dark. I wish you the best of luck in it. RanthulfR RenScribe@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings all > > I have my article about where scrolls come from and what they are worth for > the AEthelmearc Kingdom newsletter, AEstel, all ready to submit ....except.... > > I would like to include a specific dollar amount that a professional artist > charges per hour. Can anyone give me a number? > > An interesting fact I found out while researching the article is that most > scrolls here have a minimum of 25 hours worth of work in them. At Federal > minimum wage that works out to $103 - just in labor. > > Thanks in advance > Eibhlin > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- VISIT RandyAsplund.com To see a Universe of art ranging from Magic: The Gathering to Star Trek and Medieval Manuscripts Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #13 ****************************