From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V7 #7 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, September 19 2001 Volume 07 : Number 007 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Italian scrolls [scribes]: Re:Italian scrolls [scribes]: Colored inks Re: [scribes]: Ripple Effects Re: [scribes]: Colored inks Re: [scribes]: Mea Culpa! (was Ripple Effects) [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe Re: [scribes]: Mea Culpa! (was Ripple Effects) [scribes]: Re:the middle eastern scribe Re: [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe [scribes]: new to list Re: [scribes]: new to list Re: [scribes]: Mea Culpa! (was Ripple Effects) [scribes]: Embroidery Show Broadcast Date Re: [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:37:59 -0600 From: anorathepain@juno.com Subject: [scribes]: Italian scrolls Hello all I just came across a great page on late Italian scrolls at http://members.aol.com/whyteboar/italren.htm. I really like this page and have started a project for our barony's A&S competition. My question to you is how do I write this up. Where can I find some documentation for this style? I tried to write to the author of the article but it bounced back. Any and all help is welcomed. This is the first scroll I have ever entered in fact this is the first competition I have ever entered. I just want to put on a good showing. I'm doing a period song written in Italian so it should look great when it's done. please help Anora de Maledisant Outlands ~Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus~ ~Never Tickle Sleeping Dragons~ ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 13:54:25 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Italian scrolls Greetings unto Anora and all the others on this list I have been trying for years to get my e-mail contact changed on that article. Sorry if it caused you distress. You can contact me through this list or directly at RenScribe@aol.com The style of Italian Renaissance scroll that I gave the layout directions for are in the style of Attavante dei Attavante, a late 15th century Florentine illuminator. Even after the advent of printing, he continued on his work, doing everything by hand. There are many breathtaking examples of his skill in _Bibliotheca Corviniana: The Library of King Mathias of Hungary_ LCCN 69-11963 Other Italian manuscript books may have a few samples. Keep in mind that some of these can be overwhelmingly intricate. A good piece of advice - if it looks too hard, don't give up - just simplify your design. :-) Happy to discuss - or paint :-) - this style anytime Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:01:31 EDT From: Floriligeum@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Colored inks - --part1_118.4c356c3.28d804fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am finally getting the hang of calligraphy. I am much more comfortable with a brush in my hands then any kind of pen. I am starting to move from Rotring pens to dip pens and I am going to experiment with nibs and may even try quills. But my question at the moment is about colored inks. I have found several references in different places (including this board) regarding brands and types of inks. I am happy with the black I am currently using, but I am thinking that I would like to try adding some colors to the calligraphy. I would appreciate it if those of you with experience with different types of colored inks could share your insight. (I have 2 small & curious children & I am not yet ready to start making my own inks or paints, especially if there are toxins involved.) Thank you all and may you and your family be safe in this time of crisis. Yours in service, Sarra the Lymner Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom MKA Sarah Dressler Sarra's Florilegium www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com - --part1_118.4c356c3.28d804fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am finally getting the hang of calligraphy.  I am much more comfortable with a brush in my hands then any kind of pen.  I am starting to move from Rotring pens to dip pens and I am going to experiment with nibs and may even try quills.  But my question at the moment is about colored inks.  I have found several references in different places (including this board) regarding brands and types of inks.

I am happy with the black I am currently using, but I am thinking that I would like to try adding some colors to the calligraphy.  I would appreciate it if those of you with experience with different types of colored inks could share your insight.  

(I have 2 small & curious children & I am not yet ready to start making my own inks or paints, especially if there are toxins involved.)

Thank you all and may you and your family be safe in this time of crisis.

Yours in service,

Sarra the Lymner

Caer Adamant (DE), East Kingdom
MKA Sarah Dressler
Sarra's Florilegium
www.sarrasflorilegium.knownworldweb.com
- --part1_118.4c356c3.28d804fb_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:49:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Ripple Effects Lady Kayleigh, Clarification appears to be the order of the day.... :-) I don't think that you and I disagree about the situation. We're just viewing it from different parts of New York State. You're absolutely right that the Captain of the boat did well to secure your bow and arrows where they could cause neither harm nor concern. Even on a "normal" day it would be acceptable for the skipper of a boat to secure archery equipment for the duration of the voyage. I was wrong about the backlash against Arab and Middle Eastern Americans. It is happening....to the utter disgrace of those involved. President Bush has already spoken out against that ignorant behavior; and I applaud him for the proactive stance he's taken today. > Imagine what the authorities would > have to say about an Arabic-looking scroll, or an Arab persona. I hope they would be intelligent enough to recognize the difference between "Arabic" and "Dangerous". I agree that such might not be the case - because even those who -should- know better sometimes act out of ignorance. Right now I'm concerned for all my friends who look "different" than the average guy on the street. Please don't think I'm criticizing you for your concerns! You are right to be cautious! > We are in a semi-police state right now. This > will end soon, and is a temporary solution to the problem. I don't think any of us, including the police, would tolerate a "semi-police state" in America. I don't believe that we have one now. Quite the opposite... In a police state, the Captain of that boat would have snapped your bow in half and put you in handcuffs....just on the off chance that you might be dangerous. We do have tight security in our cities. That's unavoidable (and desireable.) The NYPD has done an exceptional job under extraordinary pressure. To our credit, nobody has suggested that we suspend the Bill of Rights. (That is where we MUST draw the line. Tyranny always begins as a reasonable, temporary measure. Ask the Japanese Americans who were placed in concentration camps during WWII. Some of them are now in the US Congress...and they have not forgotten the danger.) Once again, please don't take my words as criticism of you. I know from your note that your intentions are just. The only reason I've continued this thread is that I believe we have a responsibility, as free citizens, to think hard about these issues. The time when it seems most reasonable to suspend individual rights is the very time that we must speak out in defense of those rights. Benjamin Franklin said it much better than I ever could. He wrote, "Those who would give up their essential liberties in order to gain a measure of security deserve neither liberty nor security." The willing surrender of liberty is the primary goal of terrorism. Let's not give them the satisfaction. I treasure the fact that we live in a country where the police and firemen are heroes.....where we can speak and assemble and write as we choose....and where we are allowed to live, worship, work and play as we see fit. Kindly forgive the long post. I know that I've strayed far from discussion of the Scribal Arts. We Americans tend to stray off topic quite frequently. (That's my excuse.....and I'm sticking to it.) Longwinded - yet not terribly penitent, ::grin:: Peter __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:07:25 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Colored inks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C13FC5.21E8D9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sarra: I've had loads of fun with different colors of Japanese stick inks, but = they are pricey. But, if you plan to start using dip pens, you can = write with any color of gouache you can mix up. You just make it = slightly thinner than when painting (and you paint wonderfully, by the = way), so they will flow through the nib. Just be sure to add just one = drop of gum arabic to your paint at first mixing in your paint well, if = using tube gouaches. You only need to do this at the initial mixing, or = if you have added lots and lots of water to the paint. Cadmium Red Deep is a wonderful red, and is quite similar to some of the = reds used in manuscripts. Look at the manuscript reproductions = carefully to see just what colors of inks they used. There is a very = orangey-red used in many I've seen, not to mention a wonderful burgundy = color upon occasion. The blue used in manuscripts is very much like the = blue of an e-mail or web address on a computer screen. Have fun playing!! Meisterin Katarina Helene von Schoenborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) Middle Kingdom http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin - ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C13FC5.21E8D9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sarra:
 
I've had loads of fun with different = colors of=20 Japanese stick inks, but they are pricey.  But, if you plan to = start using=20 dip pens, you can write with any color of gouache you can mix up.  = You just=20 make it slightly thinner than when painting (and you paint wonderfully, = by the=20 way), so they will flow through the nib.  Just be sure to add just = one drop=20 of gum arabic to your paint at first mixing in your paint well, if using = tube=20 gouaches.  You only need to do this at the initial mixing, or if = you have=20 added lots and lots of water to the paint.
 
Cadmium Red Deep is a wonderful red, = and is quite=20 similar to some of the reds used in manuscripts.  Look at the = manuscript=20 reproductions carefully to see just what colors of inks they used.  = There=20 is a very orangey-red used in many I've seen, not to mention a wonderful = burgundy color upon occasion.  The blue used in manuscripts is very = much=20 like the blue of an e-mail or web address on a computer = screen.
 
Have fun playing!!
 
Meisterin Katarina Helene von = Schoenborn,=20 OL
Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana)
Middle Kingdom
http://ww1.comteck.com/~meiste= rin
 - ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C13FC5.21E8D9E0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:26:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mea Culpa! (was Ripple Effects) To All, My latest post on this subject was in reply to a private message from Lady Kayleigh, which I mistook for a List message. I'm very sorry for any offense I caused her by this foolish oversight! Private conversations should be just that. Kayleigh, please forgive me. - -Peter __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:21:57 +0000 From: "Russell Husted" Subject: [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe body position of the ME scribe with ones toosh on the floor, curl the left foot under you so no one can see its bottom. the right foot is flat on the floor, knee up high. It is your writing surface. The paper, yes paper, lays on your leg and the pen is held, not like a western pen, but with the center finger closest to the tip. Then going up the shaft, next comes your thumb, followed by your index finger. This allows you to have the softest touch, and your hand does not smear the ink. The pen was a reed or bamboo cut at the nuckle on one end and open at the other. The end/nib would be straight is used for doing "print" and an angled for doing "cursive". The ink is a combination of lamp black and iron gaul. It makes a very strong black ink that will last 'forever.' The ink well has a piece of silk in it acting like a spunge so if the well is turned on its side it will not leak. the scribe would sign his teachers name on his work until he was considered good enough to go out into the world where the sribe, whether male of felmale, free or slave was a cherished part of a sultan's house. He taught the children of the house literacy, and produced works of beauty for its employer. Almost every major town had its own style of both "cursive" and "print". To this day, I have found 56 or so styles of each. Some of which are virtually undistinguishable except in the suddleties, but in that the beauty lies. your servant, mahee of acre _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:29:31 EDT From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mea Culpa! (was Ripple Effects) No harm done. You can post it, although it is rather lengthy. For the most part, it takes into consideration Master Johannes' post regarding mailing supplies to the destination when traveling, plus the heightened awareness and ignorance of our Arab-American citizens, etc. Just be aware that there's a little foul language in there with regard to the terrorists. We now return to our regularly scheduled scribes list, which is already in progress. :) Thankful that there's a list to post to, and a lot of caring people on it... - --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) (E.Frank, Long Island) PS: No, I'm not offended... A non-American already did that on Thurs last week, claiming America was a 'schoolyard bully' and was 'bound to be sucker-punched'. I promptly deleted this person off my ICQ list after trying to explain that this was neither the time nor place for such comments, and reasoning with him did not work. All is forgiven, Lord Peter. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:37:06 EDT From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:the middle eastern scribe In a message dated 9/18/2001 7:25:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, husted@hotmail.com writes: > the pen is held, > not like a western pen, but with the center finger closest to the tip. Then > going up the shaft, next comes your thumb, followed by your index finger. > This allows you to have the softest touch, and your hand does not smear the > ink. I know of 3 scribes in AEthelmearc who do this - myself included. It's often referred to as a "Chinese or Oriental" grip. You can maintain a death grip on a pen and still have a light touch. This quirk baffled my early teachers. ;-) For those who move their hands instead of arms to do calligraphy, this makes it harder to do rounder scripts. The pen gets hung up at the bottom of the down stroke and you have to force any roundness at the bottoms of the stroke. Flourishing is a struggle too. This tendency is lessened when doing a slanted script or slanting the paper and working off of penciled guidelines. Looking at how someone holds their pen, can be a good indication of which calligraphy hands are likely to come more naturally to them. If new scribes don't have a preference, I usually choose which hand to start them on based on how they hold the pen and a sample of how they write and print their name. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:11:24 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe Mahee, thank you for a very clear description. Two minor points: Which leg does the paper lie on? I'm assuming the right, meaning the paper is newarly vertical but not much allowance for the far-sighted. Second, is there any backing board behind the paper or does it rest directly on te leg? Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Husted" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 6:21 AM Subject: [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe > body position of the ME scribe > > with ones toosh on the floor, curl the left foot under you so no one can see > its bottom. the right foot is flat on the floor, knee up high. It is your > writing surface. The paper, yes paper, lays on your leg and the pen is held, > not like a western pen, but with the center finger closest to the tip. Then > going up the shaft, next comes your thumb, followed by your index finger. > This allows you to have the softest touch, and your hand does not smear the > ink. The pen was a reed or bamboo cut at the nuckle on one end and open at > the other. The end/nib would be straight is used for doing "print" and an > angled for doing "cursive". The ink is a combination of lamp black and iron > gaul. It makes a very strong black ink that will last 'forever.' The ink > well has a piece of silk in it acting like a spunge so if the well is turned > on its side it will not leak. the scribe would sign his teachers name on his > work until he was considered good enough to go out into the world where the > sribe, whether male of felmale, free or slave was a cherished part of a > sultan's house. He taught the children of the house literacy, and produced > works of beauty for its employer. Almost every major town had its own style > of both "cursive" and "print". To this day, I have found 56 or so styles of > each. Some of which are virtually undistinguishable except in the > suddleties, but in that the beauty lies. > > your servant, > mahee of acre > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:07:55 -0500 From: "N.D. Wederstrandt" Subject: [scribes]: new to list Hi! My name is Clare RosMuire St. John and I have just subscribed to this list. I have been in the SCA for about 25 years and during that time have been involved at various times with calligraphy and Illumination. Mundanely I am attempting to become an artist - which is a long and tedious process. Currently I live in the Kingdom of Ansteorra, Barony of Bryn Gwlad (Austin, Texas.) I am a member of Dark Horde Moritu, and belong to various orders..... (do you want to know?) My interest is primarily research and bookmaking, but like all curious people I am interested in just about everything. If you need more info please let me know. Cordially, Clare St. John Ansteorra =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:55:11 -0300 From: "Martin Higgins" Subject: Re: [scribes]: new to list Welcome to the list Clare :o) Though there is also a bookbinding list (or used to be) am sure there is much here to offer interest... as well it is good to have new brains to pick Griet (~who mostly has been lurking as of late, but will speak up every now and then :o) ~) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:37:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Steiner Subject: Re: [scribes]: Mea Culpa! (was Ripple Effects) Good Lady, you are most kind! 'tis much appreciated! :-) - -Peter- - --- KMcWhyte@aol.com wrote: > No harm done. You can post it, although it is rather lengthy. For the > most > part, it takes into consideration Master Johannes' post regarding > mailing > supplies to the destination when traveling, plus the heightened > awareness and > ignorance of our Arab-American citizens, etc. Just be aware that > there's a > little foul language in there with regard to the terrorists. > > We now return to our regularly scheduled scribes list, which is > already in > progress. :) > > Thankful that there's a list to post to, and a lot of caring people > on it... > > > --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) > (E.Frank, Long Island) > > PS: No, I'm not offended... > A non-American already did that on Thurs last week, claiming America > was a > 'schoolyard bully' and was 'bound to be sucker-punched'. I promptly > deleted > this person off my ICQ list after trying to explain that this was > neither the > time nor place for such comments, and reasoning with him did not > work. > All is forgiven, Lord Peter. > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:58:37 EDT From: EowynA@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Embroidery Show Broadcast Date Hi! In all the confusion, terror, and sorrow over the past week, it has been hard to think of something so trivial. But as we start to put the interrupted pieces of our personal worlds back together, it seems reasonable to let you all know, as I promised I would, when the segment featuring my embroidery will be aired. It will be on the Home and Garden Network's series "Sew Much More" (apparently a change in title from "Sew Very Much" ). It is the fourth segment of the half-hour show, and is four minutes long (don't blink!). They scheduled it to air twice on October 9. The times given were 5am and 8am, but I suspect she must have meant pm. The letter didn't say what time zone. The segment will concentrate on my blackwork designs (two of which will be on display at EGA National later in October). Nearly all designs are historically inspired, and many are based on manuscript styles (such as a Romanesque Dragon letter). They also filmed some of my calligraphy on vellum, but I don't know if that made the final cut. I hope you can catch it, and that you enjoy it, Melinda Sherbring =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:53:54 +0000 From: "Russell Husted" Subject: Re: [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe Corinna and all, Thank you for your question. Yes, you sit on your left leg and write on you right leg. You may use a pizzaboard shaped backboard, but in all of the illuminations, the paper is simply on the leg without a board. Thank you again. Your servant, mahee Mahee, thank you for a very clear description. Two minor points: Which leg does the paper lie on? I'm assuming the right, meaning the paper is newarly vertical but not much allowance for the far-sighted. Second, is there any backing board behind the paper or does it rest directly on te leg? Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Husted" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 6:21 AM Subject: [scribes]: the middle eastern scribe > body position of the ME scribe > > with ones toosh on the floor, curl the left foot under you so no one can see > its bottom. the right foot is flat on the floor, knee up high. It is your > writing surface. The paper, yes paper, lays on your leg and the pen is held, > not like a western pen, but with the center finger closest to the tip. Then > going up the shaft, next comes your thumb, followed by your index finger. > This allows you to have the softest touch, and your hand does not smear the > ink. The pen was a reed or bamboo cut at the nuckle on one end and open at > the other. The end/nib would be straight is used for doing "print" and an > angled for doing "cursive". The ink is a combination of lamp black and iron > gaul. It makes a very strong black ink that will last 'forever.' The ink > well has a piece of silk in it acting like a spunge so if the well is turned > on its side it will not leak. the scribe would sign his teachers name on his > work until he was considered good enough to go out into the world where the > sribe, whether male of felmale, free or slave was a cherished part of a > sultan's house. He taught the children of the house literacy, and produced > works of beauty for its employer. Almost every major town had its own style > of both "cursive" and "print". To this day, I have found 56 or so styles of > each. Some of which are virtually undistinguishable except in the > suddleties, but in that the beauty lies. > > your servant, > mahee of acre > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V7 #7 ***************************