From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V6 #25 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Friday, August 31 2001 Volume 06 : Number 025 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: inconsideration of our work Re: [scribes]: re:scrolls [scribes]: Pennsic Pix [scribes]: Comparative Rates for Callig & Illumination, 1997. Re: [scribes]: displays and such [was] Re: inconsideration of our work --- Re: [scribes]: Pennsic Pix [scribes]: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:27:18 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: inconsideration of our work Re: [scribes]: re:scrolls Oooooooooooooooh, could I tell you of some of the horrendous things that have happened to scrolls I have laboured long and hard on! I have a full bank of "scribal horror stories" from my 23 years of scribal experience!! So I'll just share maybe a few with you, and I promise to be brief: Horror Story #1: Back in, oh, about 1978, 1979 or thereabouts, we had a small event here in Kent, OH. I was to do all the award scrolls for the various competitions. Given but a few days notice, I ended up doing massive photocopies since I lacked the time to do full blown scrolls, but I did want to do one good hand done scroll, and I believe it was for the tourney winner. So I lost a full night's sleep doing a very elaborate Celtic scroll that I was very proud of. The next day was a living nightmare - on no sleep, the autocrat left the day site at the end of the day part of the event to head to the feast site and did not delegate anyone to clean it up, so I stayed behind to scrub the place clean lest we lose the site. I had already given him all the award scrolls, including the hand illuminated one. After I finished cleaning the park shelter (which was the day site), I drove a few blocks to the feast site, a nearby church hall. Arriving there already totally exhausted, I heard a ruckus in the kitchen and went over to investigate what was going on. I found my scroll sitting on a kitchen counter in a pool of spilled beer and the autocrat had, instead of delicately dabbing it, swiped a paper towel across it and totally smeared all the paint so that all that was left was a smeared rainbow of colour on soggy paper. Basically, the scroll had been ruined due to the neglect of the autocrat, and the ruckus I arrived upon was one of the cooks, a scribe himself, bawling out the autocrat. I fell into a major rage over the neglect for my work and joined the fray (mind you, exhaustion was a major part of this equation by now!), just as His Highness Prince Talymar walked in the back kitchen door to see this situation unfolding. I froze in terror, seeing the Prince of the Middle Kingdom, standing in the kitchen in full army fatigues (he was just coming off National Guard duty) amidst a whole lot of angry people, including myself. His Highness graciously took me out of the kitchen (we were already old friends by that point) and took me aside and calmed me down. I was nearly in tears by that point from seeing my work ruined inconsiderately and I was already fatigued beyond belief anyway from having spent a whole sleepless night doing it. Eventually, I regained some semblance of calm, but still fumed inwardly that someone would be so cavalier about a piece of original artwork that took many painstaking hours to do. Horror Story #2: Around that same time, a Knight commissioned me to make for him a lovely scroll for him to give to a Squire that he was going to take. I gladly accepted and once again, set about doing an elaborate Celtic scroll with lots of knotwork and delicate insular majiscule calligraphy. The Squire was to be taken at Pennsic, so I gently and carefully packed the scroll to take with me to Pennsic for the Squiring ceremony. The evening of the ceremony arrived, and I reported dutifully to the Knight's camp, scroll in hand. The Squiring ceremony was lovely, the scroll was awarded along with the belt, chain and spurs.................and the newly made Squire took my scroll and folded it up and put it in his pouch.......................as I squirmed in horror!!! How could someone just crunch up a hand made piece of artwork and stuff it in his pouch??? I don't remember if I said anything or not, but my face should have conveyed enough so that anyone who saw me should have realised how I felt at that moment! Those are probably my two worst tales of scroll abuse, but I could tell you more! If only people knew the sheer monetary value of what they were receiving, they wouldn't be such louts about the way they treat our work sometimes! Most people are very careful and considerate of what they receive, but you run across the occasional oaf who lacks anything resembling a clue about what it is they have gotten from their King and Queen. It's going to take us scribes to educate the masses about what they get in the way of a scroll and what it would retail for if we sold it on the open art market. Maybe then, people would have far more respect for us and for the beautiful scrolls they receive free when we could be making a fortune at craft fairs selling our work. Fortunately, in recent years, the Midrealm Royalty has made a point of recognising the scribes in court, not only by reading off our names at the end of court, but also in awarding us nice tokens as a thank you gift. It makes all the work and effort worthwhile to receive something like that from the hand of your Monarchs. Every token I have received, no matter how small, has meant the world to me, and is something I cherish and treasure. I wear one on my belt, a lovely favour that I received from the hands of TRM Edmund and Kateryn last fall at Coronation. It's white with a red stripe down the middle (like the Midrealm arms) and has embroidered on it the badge of the Midrealm Scribes, a silver quill over a gold scroll. If you see me at an event, I always wear it on my Protegé belt (which in itself is distinctive - it's a woven yellow belt and it says, "no, Nay, no, Nein, no, Non, no, Nyet, no, No, no...well, ok". If you saw someone wearing that belt at Pennsic, slender, 5'6"-ish, greying waist length ash blond hair, although mostly worn in a snood, that was me!). It's become a permanent part of my personal regalia. ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:16:29 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: [scribes]: Pennsic Pix Greetings all. I just posted my Pennsic pictures to my new web site (some of the main stuff is still at my old site, which has a link at the top of the Home Page)... at the bottom of the page is two pictures of my new scribe's desk I made using the drawings Master RanthulfR had on his web site (that he drew up from an existing artifact. I modified them just a bit, so it isn't exact, but it is quite similar. Follow the link to Pennsic XXX at the bottom of the page: http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin KHvS =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:50:37 EDT From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Comparative Rates for Callig & Illumination, 1997. You asked.... These are outdated, likely, but here's what the G.A.G. suggests: HOURLY FEES, Lettering and Calligraphy (p.185) Comp lettering $40-125 Finished built-up lettering 60-125 Type modification 40-125 *Hourly fees are rarely used by lettering artists. Fees are normally project-based. Current charges for rush work range from 20% - 100% of the fee. KETUBOT Complex Average Simple Print, text only $100-135 60-100 50-75 Original, text only 500-1000 350-750 250-500 Original, text / illustrated border 1000-2000 800-1500 500-1000 *Print = Fill in the blanks. **Original = Original wording, completely calligraphed. ILLUMINATED SCROLLS Complex Average Simple $350-1500 $250-1000 $100-500 "...While many surveyed calligraphers price envelope addressing by the line or a standard three lines (name line, street address, and city-state address), they have found the fees for certificates and illuminated scrolls are more difficult to gauge because of the varying amount of design and color work that may be involved." Also noted were that there were commissioned scribes 'back in the day', who weren't cooped up in a monastery somewhere, though the majority of manuscripts stem from there. There were 'scribes for hire', (referring to notes in Drogin) though I'm not sure how 'expensive' their rates were in comparison to the local economies/trade systems from back then. I still think the listing of hours spent on the scroll is a wise one, incl cost of materials, etc as a sidenote. "Cost of various goaches.... $42... cost of parchment.... $2... cost of gold leaf.... $15.... ....look on recipient's face.... Priceless." ;) - --Lady Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) E.Frank, Long Island, NY =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:48:04 -0500 From: Gwendoline Rosamond Subject: Re: [scribes]: displays and such [was] Re: inconsideration of our work --- Greetings, At 11:36 AM 8/30/2001 -0400, RenScribe@aol.com wrote: >Here in AEthelmearc the scribes get quite a bit of respect. We are very >visible. Articles have been written for the kingdom newsletter telling folks >how much time and the actual cost to the scribes to produce scrolls, how much >a scroll would cost if it were commissioned mundanely and how to treat >scrolls so they retain their value. Recipients of scrolls see how others >treat the scrolls they receive and follow the example set for them. It used >to be that scrolls were doomed from the words, "Greet your new companion". >Nowadays it is likely the scroll will be taken from the recipient before they >get a single hug. :-) Those articles sound like fabulous ideas! I think that it should be suggested to the authors that an article of that sort should be sent to TI. It might hit more people, society wide, with a clue by 4... Cheers, Gwendoline =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 00:22:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: Re: [scribes]: Pennsic Pix Meisterin Katarina, Hey! I know you! I took your diapering class! :) (I'm awful with names, I forget faces, but campsites I recognize.) To the list, I just updated my website with pictures of the two mini-scrolls I made during Pennsic. To see my horrible calligraphy*, go to http://members.aol.com/palotay/pennsic30.htm Martha Darach/Caid * I blame it on the conditions at war. Yeah, that's right, the conditions... and being rushed to finish before dark. Yeah, so it was the conditions, being rushed, and not having a proper ruler available. Ok, so it was... eh. You get the idea. >:) - --- Helen Schultz wrote: > Greetings all. > > I just posted my Pennsic pictures to my new web site (some of the main stuff > is > still at my old site, which has a link at the top of the Home Page)... at the > bottom of the page is two pictures of my new scribe's desk I made using the > drawings Master RanthulfR had on his web site (that he drew up from an > existing > artifact. I modified them just a bit, so it isn't exact, but it is quite > similar. Follow the link to Pennsic XXX at the bottom of the page: > http://ww1.comteck.com/~meisterin > > KHvS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. End of scribes digest V6 #25 ****************************