From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V6 #7 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Saturday, July 7 2001 Volume 06 : Number 007 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Fwd: [marinus] Book Raffle -change of plans (was: A Worthy Cause) [scribes]: Re: [scribes] French legal documents? [scribes]: Pennsic scribal get-together Re: [scribes]: Pennsic scribal get-together Re: [scribes]: Fwd: [marinus] Book Raffle -change of plans (was: A Worthy Cau... [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Re: [scribes]: Fwd: [marinus] Book Raffle -change of plans (was: A Worthy Cau... Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 01:09:07 EDT From: MiLadyGbr@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Fwd: [marinus] Book Raffle -change of plans (was: A Worthy Cause) So.............. We mail our money to friends in Atlantia so they can buy our tickets for us.......... =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 16:04:21 +1000 From: Mark Calderwood Subject: [scribes]: Re: [scribes] French legal documents? - --=====================_153473363==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I am looking for any examples of French 15th or 16th century legal >documents (or anything similar - including letters of marque discussed >recently) so that I can study the version of batarde script in use in >France. Hi Leonie, I have pictures of several early 16th century French documents, including: * the French confirmation of the treaty of Amiens (1527), * the English copy of the same, made in France, * Pageants for Princess Mary's Entry into Paris (1514), * the Marriage Treaty for the Princess Mary and the Duc d'Orleans (1527), * The Mercantile treaty (with the Dutch) (1527), * the Election of Henry VIII to the Order of St Michael (sexy gold seals but too small to make out any detail in the script) * several contemporary English documents An original leaf from Pandectarum seu Digestum Juris Civilis (Compilation or Digest or Civil Law) printed in Paris in 1539 With the exception of the English copy of Amiens, which is written in a humanist script, and the law digest, which is printed in rotunda, all the above are written in various styles of batarde. If you contact me off-list we can work out the best arrangement for getting these to you. Giles PS-Faelen, are you out there? How's your work going? - --=====================_153473363==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I am looking for any examples of French 15th or 16th century legal
documents (or anything similar - including letters of marque discussed
recently) so that I can study the version of batarde script in use in
France.
Hi Leonie,

I have pictures of several early 16th century French documents, including:
  • the French confirmation of the treaty of Amiens (1527),
  • the English copy of the same, made in France, 
  • Pageants for Princess Mary's Entry into Paris (1514),
  • the Marriage Treaty for the Princess Mary and the Duc d'Orleans (1527),
  • The Mercantile treaty (with the Dutch) (1527),
  • the Election of Henry VIII to the Order of St Michael (sexy gold seals but too small to make out any detail in the script)
  • several contemporary English documents
An original leaf from Pandectarum seu Digestum Juris Civilis (Compilation or Digest or Civil Law) printed in Paris in 1539

With the exception of the English copy of Amiens, which is written in a humanist script, and the law digest, which is printed in rotunda, all the above are written in various styles of batarde. If you contact me off-list we can work out the best arrangement for getting these to you.

Giles

PS-Faelen, are you out there? How's your work going? 


- --=====================_153473363==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 06:51:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Mary Haselbauer Subject: [scribes]: Pennsic scribal get-together Will there be a scribal get together at Pennsic this year? Slaine __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:57:10 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Pennsic scribal get-together - --part1_9d.17cad400.2875da46_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sure hope so. It has been a great deal of fun the last two years. I have a suggestion, if we do have it, and that is to wear name tags so we can match faces up with names this year! I believe someone suggested this last year as well. Brandy - --part1_9d.17cad400.2875da46_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sure hope so. It has been a great deal of fun the last two years. I have a
suggestion, if we do have it, and that is to wear name tags so we can match
faces up with names this year! I believe someone suggested this last year as
well.

Brandy - --part1_9d.17cad400.2875da46_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:27:44 EDT From: BRNDALSTON@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Fwd: [marinus] Book Raffle -change of plans (was: A Worthy Cau... - --part1_1e.181cb992.28760ba0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/2001 1:12:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MiLadyGbr@aol.com writes: > So.............. We mail our money to friends in Atlantia so they can buy > our tickets for us.......... > I am willing to do that, but I don't know if that is legal. How about it Tetchubah, is it ok if people buy tickets through their friends? Or does this still violate the new policy the BOD is considering about interstate raffles? Brandy - --part1_1e.181cb992.28760ba0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/2001 1:12:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
MiLadyGbr@aol.com writes:


So.............. We mail our money to friends in Atlantia so they can buy
our tickets for us..........


I am willing to do that, but I don't know if that is legal. How about it
Tetchubah, is it ok if people buy tickets through their friends? Or does this
still violate the new policy the BOD is considering about interstate raffles?

Brandy - --part1_1e.181cb992.28760ba0_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 08:36:17 -0400 From: "Kelly McCoy" Subject: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Greetings to the list! I don't post often, mostly just lurk, but I've got a very frusterating problem! I'm doing gold leaf on leather (a book cover), and I can't get the gold leaf to have smooth lines. They look raggedy! Is there a trick to getting a smooth, neat edge? My other question is this, is there some kind of sealant or varnish I can use over silver leaf so it doesn't tarnish? Thanks, I very much enjoy reading this list, and hope someone out there might have an answer for me!! - -Ruaidri mac Aodha- _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:47:49 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Fwd: [marinus] Book Raffle -change of plans (was: A Worthy Cau... >>I am willing to do that, but I don't know if that is legal. How about it Tetchubah, is it ok if people buy tickets through their friends? Or does this still violate the new policy the BOD is considering about interstate raffles? << Depends on how you want to interpret "void where prohibited by law". Tetchubah "Oh Bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:00:58 -0600 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Kelly McCoy wrote: > > Greetings to the list! > > I don't post often, mostly just lurk, but I've got a very frusterating > problem! I'm doing gold leaf on leather (a book cover), and I can't get the > gold leaf to have smooth lines. They look raggedy! Is there a trick to > getting a smooth, neat edge? the million dollar questions are: what are you using for your mordant, what is the tannage type of the leather, and is the leather already dyed? Use veg tanned only. Dye it first, with a period sulfate-based dye if your are able, or an "oil dye" otherwise. Avoid spirit dyes as much as possilble - they degrade the leather surface as far as getting your mordant to stick is concerned. Use gum ammoniac or hot work the leaf with glair. I went through the agony of learning how to leaf leather a while back, tried every method under the sun, spent two years to try them all, somehow turned into a scribe in the process (I'm really just a simple minded leather worker, really, and regardless of what people think, my calligraphy _is_ second-rate on a good day - let's not talk about the bad days). I wrote a short TI article about it. It's funny that you've brought this up here, since I just got sent a very similar question last week from the medieval leather list. Unfortunately, I am up against a whole pile of deadlines right now, have been working literally every waking hour for many days, and don't get to breathe until sometime next week, and then for only a day or two, since I'm also in the middle of moving. I can't remember the TI issue my article is in, but if Charles and/or Graidhne are lurking about this list still, they could probably look it up quicker than I can at the moment (my life is currently packed in some thirty boxes sitting in my old living room in Sacramento). The short form of the answer, as far as my experience is concerned, goes like this: for "water" gilding on leather, use gum ammoniac as your mordant. Nothing else besides hot working will do as well. The problem with glaire in cold gilding leather is that albumin and tannic acid don't get along, and for gesso, it just doesn't stick worth a damn and falls off the leather in the matter of weeks. Gum ammoniac is incredibly sticky, and unlike modern commercial mordants, it's flexible and stays that way, so the movement of the leather doesn't cause it to crack , break or flake. Leaf that sticks to the leather outside of the patch painted with mordant can be lifted with ammonia at the end of a fine brush, with careful swabbing when necessary with a flat felt dauber (don't use one of the round ones). You can't burnish leaf on leather with gum ammoniac as the mordant. YMMV The traditional method of gilding leather for book covers is called hot working, and it's simple to describe and takes a lot of practice and special tools which you can't even find to buy, even if you could afford them. :( The beauty of the method is that the leaf comes up shinier than burnished, and it lasts longer than any other leaf method on leather. When you see really old books with shiney gold on the covers, even as old as 5 centuries, that's hot work. For hot working, you make an impression with a flat cameo-cut stamp made of brass, latten or bronze. The type of metal is crucial - it's has to do with the thermal conductivity properties of copper alloy - iron, zinc and nickel alloys are either too hot or too cold for hot work. Make your impression and then put the stamp on your flat-surfaced hot plate set at less than 135 degrees F/65 degrees C (if you only have a coil hot-plate, use a really clean frying pan as your flat surface) or in the flame of your alcohol-lamp and heat it up (much trickier than the hot plate). Then you paint the impression with glaire. You slap your piece of leaf into the impression immediately and then stike the impression with your hot tool which you have ready to hand. This literally makes a leather-fried egg-gold sandwich and it's very very shiney and will last forever if you got the combination of heat and "dwell-time" of the stamp just right. It's a b*tch to do. It's also beautiful. I went looking more than 10 years ago for hot working tools, and couldn't find any in North America. I found a source in Germany, but couldn't afford to buy them (they're not made anymore, so it's a sellers market where the tools are more valuable when sold as antiques) I went around and snooped at several book binderies, and couldn't even find anyone in the SF Bay Area or Sacramento Valley who even knew how to do it. So I made my own tools and taught myself, using the description of the method in the 2nd edition of Heather Child's (editor) Calligrapher's Handbook. > My other question is this, is there some kind of sealant or varnish I can > use over silver leaf so it doesn't tarnish? I've never used silver leaf - so I don't know. I suspect that glaire would work just fine. Experiment! If the glaire won't stick and dry on the silver leaf, one period solution was to lightly coat the leaf first with a dilute solution of verdigris (copper acetate, copper tartrate, and mixes of the two - what you got in your verdigris depended on whether you made it using vinegar or wine lees) I've done this with gold leaf, so I suspect it would work on silver leaf also. ttfn, Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:22:44 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing >>I've never used silver leaf - so I don't know. I suspect that glaire would work just fine. Experiment! If the glaire won't stick and dry on the silver leaf, one period solution was to lightly coat the leaf first with a dilute solution of verdigris (copper acetate, copper tartrate, and mixes of the two - what you got in your verdigris depended on whether you made it using vinegar or wine lees) I've done this with gold leaf, so I suspect it would work on silver leaf also.<< I suspect using this would tarnish the silver, so I'd test it on another piece first. Silver leaf is far more subject to tarnishing when mixed with chemicals than gold leaf, just like silver of any kind is more likely to tarnish than gold. My recommendation for sealing off the silver leaf would be to use varnish or shellac. They will both keep it from tarnishing, don't have anything specific in them that would react with the silver itself. Varnishes and shellacs are period for paintings, but for illumination they generally didn't seal the silver since it was closed away in the book. Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:42:54 -0600 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Catie Helm-Clark wrote: > > Kelly McCoy wrote: > > > > Greetings to the list! > > > > I don't post often, mostly just lurk, but I've got a very frusterating > > problem! I'm doing gold leaf on leather (a book cover), and I can't get the > > gold leaf to have smooth lines. They look raggedy! Is there a trick to > > getting a smooth, neat edge? Well, I guess I really am tired - wrote that long email and only circled the answer. Yes, if you use gumammoniac, used ammonia to establish your line by lifting the leaf with the ammonia dipped brush. If you're using glair or gesso, make a solution of oxalic acid, and do the same thing using it instead. You may have to make a dilution of your leather dye to correct any color striping by the ammonia or oxalic acid after you're all done. If you used a modern mordant on top of spirit dye, you might be out of luck. Ethylene glycol would probably work, but it's nasty, toxic through skin absorption, needs mondo ventilation, and is generally not nice stuff. It will dissolve a lot of stuff, including most modern mordants and agglutenants, and it won't destroy the leather, which is why it's used so much in the leather industries, but you probably would have to redye the spots where you applied it. If you go that route, don't use the stuff from the autoparts store - it has other stuff in it. Get a small bottle of Fiebing's leather solvent and thinner - it's mostly a dilution of ethylene glycol. Or get a metal pint can of clear ethylene glycol from the hardward store, if they still carry it (you can't find it for love nor money in environmentally-correct California these days - very annoying) ttfn, Therasia (who is going to take a nap now - can't pull short hours of sleep anymore and stay productive like I used to.) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 18:30:25 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing Glair? Won't the sulphur in the egg cause tarnishing? I know most of it's in the yolk, but I think a bit may be in the white too. Have you considered the alternative metals, white gold (also tarnishes but a lot slower) or palladium (a warmer colour and double the price of gold). Corinna Midrealm - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing > > >>I've never used silver leaf - so I don't know. I suspect that glaire > would work just fine. Experiment! If the glaire won't stick and dry on > the silver leaf, one period solution was to lightly coat the leaf first > with a dilute solution of verdigris (copper acetate, copper tartrate, > and mixes of the two - what you got in your verdigris depended on > whether you made it using vinegar or wine lees) I've done this with > gold leaf, so I suspect it would work on silver leaf also.<< > > I suspect using this would tarnish the silver, so I'd test it on another > piece first. Silver leaf is far more subject to tarnishing when mixed with > chemicals than gold leaf, just like silver of any kind is more likely to > tarnish than gold. > > My recommendation for sealing off the silver leaf would be to use varnish > or shellac. They will both keep it from tarnishing, don't have anything > specific in them that would react with the silver itself. Varnishes and > shellacs are period for paintings, but for illumination they generally > didn't seal the silver since it was closed away in the book. > > Tetchubah > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 20:52:58 -0600 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold and Silver Leafing > > I've never used silver leaf - so I don't know. I suspect that glaire > > would work just fine. Experiment! If the glaire won't stick and dry on > Glair? Won't the sulphur in the egg cause tarnishing? I know most of it's > in the yolk, but I think a bit may be in the white too. > My recommendation for sealing off the silver leaf would be to use varnish > or shellac. They will both keep it from tarnishing, don't have anything > specific in them that would react with the silver itself. Yes, there is sulfur in glaire, though less than in the yolk. My operating assumption was that the ratio of sulfur to protein in the glaire is sufficiently low that for all purposes, the sulfur content isn't a major concern. The silver sulfides and sulfosalts (ie, "tarnish") have silver to sulfur ratios of 1:1 to 1:3. Glaire forms essentially a gas-impermeable boundary, which would seal the silver off from the much higher sulfur content of the air we breathe. It's sulfur in the air (eg, SO2 - major fossil fuel pollutant) that's the prime modern culprit of pigment alteration, assuming that there are no other sulfur sources on the painting (eg, sulfide pigments like vermillion abutting gallerino or azurite). So sealing with glaire is a much lower-sulfur situation than letting atmospheric sulfur "see" the silver. Also, glaire is more impermeable than any of the period varnishes or Indian shellacs. I've not really played much with shellac - it's very late in period, which is fine if you're doing Van Eyck style oil paintings, but it does have a pinkish cast to it when made up from scratch. That's one of the reasons that shellac is so gorgeous on most light-colored woods - it preceptiblly deepens the color of the shellaced wood in a drollsome manner. Spirit varnishes (the medieval varieties - not the modern stuff) should do ok, according to Gettins and Stout, but period oil varnishes had both lead and sulphur in them - which is why some of the older varnishes have contributed to the alteration of pigments in older paintings. This definately smells to me as an area that people need to experiment in. I think glaire would be ok on a leather book cover - it would probably crack and flake on a belt. I think that I'd be a lot more picky if going the varnish route, and would make my own varnish from scratch - the modern varnishes are really substancially different from the period ones. I think I would be a little wary about shellac unless I was sure that it wouldn't pink-up the silver leaf. > > one period solution was to lightly coat the leaf first > > with a dilute solution of verdigris (copper acetate, copper tartrate, > I suspect using this would tarnish the silver, so I'd test it on another > piece first. You right, Tetchubah - I wasn't thinking very straight. I tend to think in terms of gold leaf exclusively, so I completely splooged regarding the reactivity of silver in the presence of organic acids. I think the reason the dilute verdigris trick works so well with gold is that it reacts with the impurities, and not the gold itself, thus forming microscopic anchors for over-painting. Anyway - that's my conjecture. Corinna's palladium or white gold leaf idea is not a bad thought at all - - it certainly dodges the oxidation problems of tin and silver leaf. ttfn, Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V6 #7 ***************************