From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V6 #4 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Saturday, June 30 2001 Volume 06 : Number 004 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Interkingdom scribes [scribes]: children's scrolls [scribes]: Re: Childrens Scrolls Re: [scribes]: Supply Questions - liquid gold? [scribes]: Introduction, a question, and some answers [scribes]: welcome Martha [scribes]: RE: Murcurio's liquid gold [scribes]: Poyet Exhibition Lecture Info Re: [scribes]: Introduction, a question, and some answers Re: [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls Re: [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls [scribes]: Pergamentum & "spam vellum" [scribes]: SCA Translations might go offline for a while (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:41:18 -0600 From: Catie Helm-Clark Subject: Re: [scribes]: Interkingdom scribes Mary Haselbauer wrote: > Hi all, > A while back we discussed how scrolls are produced in > different kingdoms. Was this collected anywhere on the > net that I could find it? Or did someone collect this > info and could easily send it to me? > Many thanks, > Slaine Slaine, the computer where I collected all those responses had a hard drive crash in February. I back up work products weekly, but not most SCA stuff. I was not successful in restoring the info on the drive. Unless it exists in an archive on castle.org, what I had collected it gone gone gone. There was also some stuff that wasn't posted up to scribes, but was sent directly to me, and that's even more gone since there's no chance of an archive... sorry :( While I've got your attention, remember you asked me (on the SCA-Arts list, I think) where in Aquinas you can find his approach towards aesthetics? I was wrong. It's not in the Summa which was my earlier answer (I reread the whole thing - took a while. There's no such thing as reading Aquinas fast...). Much of his aesthetics are hiding in chapter 4 of _On Being and Essence_, in the discussion of quiddity. ttfn, Therasia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:45:37 -0000 From: "Russell mahee of acre" Subject: [scribes]: children's scrolls For fun, I have been making(on occation) scrolls for children to paint. They sort of look like what we do, but are usually smaller with less detail. I am not doing anything astounding in that Dover is doing much of the artwork for me. But, it does give children the ability to paint something, and learn to write their name in a particular hand if you are willing and able. The text says something like: Let it be known by all that the recipient of this award is considered greatest in all the land by I make washable water colors availible, so they can paint unsupervised if needed. my scrolls are nothing special, but the idea is a good one, and the kids like it. Just thought I would pass it on. your servant, mahee _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:14:49 -0300 From: martin.mandy@ns.sympatico.ca (Martin Higgins) Subject: [scribes]: Re: Childrens Scrolls What a lovely idea, I would love to have the same for children to do here for an activity... what type of paper did you use, and what did you use for the outlines of the design? Griet (~who is ever so curious~) :o) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:38:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Supply Questions - liquid gold? Gold paint? I use a combination of W&N gold and Schmincke Gold Pearl, with a touch of red (but that's because I do Ottonian, and it looks better that way). Acrylic is not something you want to be using--besides being not at all a period or period style paint, it's really not the right kind of paint for what we do. And, it's just icky. [My personal opinion, formed by years of acrylic paint-by-number sets inflicted on me by well-meaning relatives.] Paper & Ink Art Essentials has a wide selection of gold paints. Someday I hope to have the money to buy samples of each. ;-) Different paints are different colors of gold. The W&N is a dark gold, like an 18K or better. The Schmincke is lighter, kind of like a sparkly version of gold-filled. The W&N gold drawing ink is very brassy--I have yet to do anything useful with it, though. Savoir Faire gold is an ok color but the paint is, well, oogy. [This is a technical term created by my sibling at an early age.] It does *not* want to mix with water, even a single drop, and clumps up instead. You have to use it straight as it comes out of the tube. And although it says it is gouache, it does not, will not, can't make me neener neener neener rehydrate. Works well for doing whitework, though, since you can't pull up any of the background color if your brush is too wet, though. Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mercurio Ekaterin wrote: > Dear friends, > > Thank you so much for the wonderful reference. The site has so much info! > I would like recommendation for what's been called 'liquid gold' by some. > I am not sure what it is (acrylic? gouache? ink?) and which brand(s) and > colours(s) were tried and true for our illumination purposes. > > My own tube of gold acrylic has been more than disappointing as it does > not work well into a good consistency. I use a fine brush and it gels at > the tip and paper too quickly for an even surface. > Water-soluable/washable products preferred. I know there was a German > product but could not remember its manufacturer.... > > Any advice would be most appreciated. > > Much obliged for your help. > > Yours, > Mercurio Ekaterin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:37:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: [scribes]: Introduction, a question, and some answers Greetings, I joined this list a couple of days ago, and have been busily reading the archives ever since. Since an intro was requested, here 'tis: I am very much a "virtual SCAdian" only (Rialto, et al). Somehow, I never find the time to participate in my home shire's activities (that's the Shire of Darach, Caid). In fact, I have been to more East Kingdom events (courtesy of my sister, who "married into" an active household in Hartshorndale) than local ones. Needless to say, I don't have a persona. When I do get around to one, it will probably be Hungarian, since I am a first-generation American-Hungarian. I have always been interested in calligraphy, and I love nice pens and nice inks (an interest inherited from my father, I think). Last year, while doing my sister's wedding contract, I finally figured out that illumination is not as hard as it looks, and now I prefer it to calligraphy (especially since my handwriting is never as nice as I want it to be). My latest project was the 'diploma' for the Sunday school students at my church, done in white-vine style (but I cheated and used a computer for the text). Now for my question: I have a few sheets of decorated paper from Crane (classic Florentine acanthus-leaf borders). They are on some very nice stuff, looks like vellum but obviously isn't. Is this the same as the "pergamenata" I've seen mentioned in the archives? What about "spam vellum" (also a term I've read on this list)—is that just another name for the same stuff, or is it different? Where can I get some plain (undecorated) sheets of the stuff to play around with? How expensive is it? The decorated sheets were not cheap... Ok, so that was more than one question. :) Two replies to recent topics: The only application where I've seen the literal term "Liquid Gold" used is a type of furniture polish, obviously not what we're looking for. If you're after fake gold that is easy to use, I've had pretty good luck with the opaque gold markers you can get at craft stores. In a pinch, I've even used them on scrolls (just be aware that they're not really archival quality). This leads me to the other topic: children's scrolls. I've done this project with the Sunday school kids before, and they liked it. I printed a short story in an easy-to-read calligraphy font. Around it, I put the outlines of a border, with room for a picture at the top. The kids got to paint the border, bar-and-vine style (except without the vines), i.e. paint a section of the border in a solid color, then add white work in a repeating pattern. They also got to illustrate the story, in the space provided. I then fixed up each effort with a ruler and a gold marker, outlining the borders on both sides, and adding bits of gold to the illustration. (You can get some of the older kids to help with this, they all love gold markers.) The projects came out pretty well, especially with the gold covering up some of the grosser sins. ;D One note, if I try this project again, I'll probably use the new white 'gel' pens for the whitework; they're easier for the kids to handle then a fine brush and white paint. Originally, I had them use my precious ivory white gouache, because that was the only thing opaque enough. White poster paint ("tempera") just doesn't work, especially not on top of red. White acrylic will work for the more skilled in the bunch, but it's hard to get the lines fine enough. Ok, I think that was long enough for a first post. Sorry to inflict my ramblings on all of you. YIS, Martha Palotay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:09:57 -0300 From: martin.mandy@ns.sympatico.ca (Martin Higgins) Subject: [scribes]: welcome Martha greetings and welcome Martha it is always nice to hear what other people are up to. I especially love the topic of childrens activities :o)) Griet =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:55:56 EDT From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: RE: Murcurio's liquid gold Just following up Mercurio's posting... There are indeed several versions of 'fake' gold paint out there -- some are nontoxic, others include lead and non-heathy chemicals. As always, I think it's up to the individual scribe just which paint to use, but in the instance of health and quality, there are some things you might want to steer clear of. Krylon paint pens may seem good in a pinch, and produce a more or less shiny appearance, but have a litte 'may cause kidney damage' label on them. Hence I only used these once, for a 12th Night scroll this past year. Testor's enamel will leave a clear 'stain' of the vehicle on it depending on paper type and the age of the paint. You'd be better off with a gold gouache or the like. Imho, it's not a matter of periodicity, but quality. Go with what you are comfortable and safe with for a start, and you'll eventually find that the finer paints will produce astonishing results. Nothing ever truly replaces the real thing, but everyone has to start somewhere. :) - --Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) E.Frank, Long Island NY =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:28:51 EDT From: CLN04@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Poyet Exhibition Lecture Info Please post the following lecture information... Admission is free and all are invited. ************** “Post Poyet: Lessons from an Exhibition” Lecture by Roger S. Wieck Wednesday, July 11, 2001 at 6:00 p.m. The Grolier Club 47 East 60th Street, New York City Anyone who has ever organized an exhibition, and even written its accompanying catalogue, is always struck by the revelations that follow these events. No matter how much thought and research precede an exhibition, it is only when the art is assembled and shown under one roof that the curator is treated to flashes of revelatory visions. I spent over five years preparing for the Morgan Library exhibition “Jean Poyet: Artist to the Court of Renaissance France,” but it was only after the show was up that I discovered, for example, the nature of his influence on artists of the next generation, and who, for instance, was his true artistic heir. Since 1989, Dr. Wieck has been a curator of Medieval and Renaissance manuscripts at the Pierpont Morgan Library in New York City, and has also worked as assistant curator at the Walters Art Gallery (Baltimore, MD), and the Houghton Library at Harvard University (Cambridge, MA). He has written and lectured widely on the subject of illuminated manuscripts, and his book Painted Prayers: The Book of Hours in Medieval and Renaissance Art was chosen by the journal ARTNews as one of the four best art books of 1997. He has been the recipient of numerous other awards, fellowships, and grants from the National Endowment for the Humanities throughout his career, and this spring Dr. Wieck also taught at NYU in the Medieval and Renaissance Studies Program. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:08:08 EDT From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Introduction, a question, and some answers In a message dated 06/28/01 10:39:53 AM, mpalotay@yahoo.com writes: << Now for my question: I have a few sheets of decorated paper from Crane (classic Florentine acanthus-leaf borders). They are on some very nice stuff, looks like vellum but obviously isn't. Is this the same as the "pergamenata" I've seen mentioned in the archives? What about "spam vellum" (also a term I've read on this list)—is that just another name for the same stuff, or is it different? Where can I get some plain (undecorated) sheets of the stuff to play around with? How expensive is it? The decorated sheets were not cheap... >> Good questions. Hope I have good answers. OK, here goes; pergamenata is cellulose paper, pH neutral. It is about the same weight as light-medium watercolor paper. If you're talking about the Crane paper I'm thinking of, the Crane is much lighter weight. Spam vellum is real vellum, ie. skin, not paper. It's made of little bits of vellum ground up and formed into sheets - -- think meatloaf as opposed to a solid piece of meat like a steak, OK? Luighseach =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:58:58 -0500 From: "Charlotte DuBose" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls I recently did a peerage scroll for a friend of mine who originally got their peerage back in the 70's. (He never got one for it in all that time....) The THEN Crown was still active, and the CURRENT Crown also wanted to sign it, so at the bottom of the scroll I left a place for all 4 people to sign. It looked like this: (past Rex signature) (past Regina signature) Rex [name of kingdom][year originally issued) Regina [name of kingdom][year originally issued] (current Rex sig.) (current Regina signature) Rex [name of kingdom][present year] Regina [name of kingdom][present year] They all had the opportunity to sign it and it turned out pretty good. Miriel - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls > Countess Sara Penrose asks: > > > In Ansteorra, we don't really have a process in place > > that covers what to do if someone is getting an old > > scroll that needs the signature of a former Crown. > > > > How is this handled in other places? > > > > In the mundane world, I fill in hundreds of certificates for certification > and training programs of all sorts. If an old one is being re-issued, > replaced, whatever, the new one has the new signatures and date, and > underneath will say "originally issued " followed by the origiinal date. > Perhaps something similar could be done on scrolls - signed by current > monarch and noting "granted iin A.S. whatever in the reign of King > So-and-So" > > Corinna > Midrealm > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:52:01 -0400 From: Reinhart Subject: [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls I have an E K friend who did a backlog scroll & drove it the several hrs. to & from the home of the former Royals so that it would be properly signed. They were very kind & helpful. The recipient was stunned as she thought it long forgotten. Keran Roslin > In Ansteorra, we don't really have a process in place > that covers what to do if someone is getting an old > scroll that needs the signature of a former Crown. > > > > How is this handled in other places? =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 02:03:22 -0500 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls On my mundane certificates, the signer is frequently unable to sign because of tight framing/shipping schedules, etc. So I'm given a copy of the signature and forge it (with permission). By the way, I'm very good at it! Considering that so many monarchs were illiterate and their scribes signed for them, this system would save a lot of shipping of scrolls hither and yon. Of course, you would still have to find the monarch to obtain permission and a signature to copy. Another possibility, also with permission, is an allograph, that is, sign it in your writing in the appropriate script then add your initials below to the right. Corinna Midrealm - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Reinhart" To: Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:52 PM Subject: [scribes]: Signatures on old scrolls > I have an E K friend who did a backlog scroll & drove it the several hrs. to & > from the home of the former Royals so that it would be properly signed. They > were very kind & helpful. The recipient was stunned as she thought it long > forgotten. > > Keran Roslin > > > > In Ansteorra, we don't really have a process in place > > that covers what to do if someone is getting an old > > scroll that needs the signature of a former Crown. > > > > > > How is this handled in other places? > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Martha Palotay Subject: [scribes]: Pergamentum & "spam vellum" (Thanks for all the nice welcomes, both on and off the list!) Per a previous reply, apparently pergamentum is a cellulose 'paper' product, while "spam vellum" is just like what it is named after: ground-up vellum byproducts formed into vellum-like sheets. (How does the official description for Spam go?) So the next questions are: where can one obtain either or both of these substances? How expensive are they? How well do they work? In what ways are they inferior to the real thing? etc. etc. Thanks for any help you can provide. Martha __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 06:18:18 -0700 From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: SCA Translations might go offline for a while (fwd) Please reply to the author, not to me. nomad, postmaster@castle.org - ------- Forwarded Message Message-ID: <3B3D39FD.3040204@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:31:25 -0400 From: John Stracke To: scribes@castle.org Subject: SCA Translations might go offline for a whil The SCA Translations site (http://translate.thibault.org) might go offline for a while. My ISP's DSL provider went bankrupt, and the company I'm transitioning to has been moving pretty slowly; it looks like I might miss the June 30th deadline. If so, I probably won't be able to get another line for a few weeks--I'll look for a hosting service, but I might not be able to afford one that would let me do the translations site (it needs a database, which means I'd probably have to >get business-class service). - - -- /=========================================================\ |John Stracke | http://www.thibault.org |HTML OK | |Francois Thibault |====================================| |East Kingdom |"Power corrupts; Powerpoint corrupts| |francis@thibault.org|absolutely." -- Vint Cerf | \=========================================================/ - ------- End of Forwarded Message =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V6 #4 ***************************