From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V5 #49 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 05 : Number 049 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Reply all & Mullers Re: Fwd: framing tangent Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame [scribes]: wax seals [scribes]: [FWD] auto-bounced email to scribes list Re: [scribes]: wax seal question Re: Re: [scribes]: wax seal question ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:40:22 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Reply all & Mullers Hi gang, First, regarding the way the reply works on this list, yeah it catches me once in a while as well. But the bottom line is that it has saved so much superfluous email that I am very glad we have it set that way. I sincerely hope that we won't lose members because of it since the way around it is so easy. That goes for you too Edward, your knowledge of Japanese things is quite an asset to the group. I personally don't believe that hitting reply all instead of just reply is such an extra hassle. Now as for the use of mullers. A minor correction Mistress Kat, I don't own any glass mullers or slabs. I have a marble slab and muller set (12" diameter made from a cheese plate and a window pane fragment) and a few months ago I got a 12" granite floor tile slab and a 3" square floor tile store sample for use on the tougher stones. I almost never grind pigments which are store bought. They are already ground and usually only need to have the binder added. I put a small pile in a shell and drop down roughly the same volume of glair. Then I mix them with a brush. The two situations where I grind color on the slab are when I am grinding the ingredients of gesso so it will be smooth (since some of it is home made) and also when I am making pigments themselves from scratch. A mortar and pestle is the wrong tool to grind powder pigments (with the exception of heavy grain colors like azurite and malachite, but frankly, I am getting more control of the particle size with gentle slab work than I did with a mortar and pestle. There seems to be a bit less waste as well). Mortar and pestle are great for crushing soft or brittle things. For example, if you are extracting plant juices for pigment, a mortar and pestle is just the right tool. But anything you want to grind fine and even needs to be done on a slab. It is WAY less work, and goes MUCH faster, with more even results. Marble is ok for the softer colors like earths (ochres), and gessos, and carbons, etc. But hematite, lapis, and other hard stones will tear the hell out of marble. You will wreck the slab. I got my slab of granite by calling around floor tile sellers who deal in granite floors and asking if they would sell a single piece or if they had an old sample that was discontinued. I offered to pay. I bought the 12" square for about $5 and they gave me the 6x3 for free. I had to buy a masonry cut-off wheel to fit my drill so I could cut it in half for a more reasonable tool. I epoxied on a wooden closet door handle to make a grip. RanthulfR Helen Schultz wrote: > > Gwendoline: > > You simply have to "Reply All" and then delete the address of the individual. > Yes, it is a bit of a hassle, but it saves us having lots of "me-too" messages > and if you desire to respond privately, you can do it by just using "Reply." > > You can order Pergamenta from almost any of the on-line art sources listed > below. You can order their catalogs, too. > > http://www.johnnealbooks.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=index.html > http://www.danielsmith.com/ > http://www.paperinkarts.com > http://www.jerryscatalog.com > > To turn dry pigments into paint, you will need distilled water, gum arabic > liquid (or glair, or egg yolk), and some sort of special mixing dish or glass > slab with a flat muller. I usually start with less than 1/8 tsp of pigment, > about 7 drops of gum arabic and then grind in a little 4-part unglazed porcelain > dish with a small glass muller. After it is mixed up good, I then add water. > RanthulfR uses a glass slab and a glass muller. Either way works. > > Hope this helps you a bit. > > KHvS > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Greetings, > > I have just discovered that when one replies to an email from this list, it > > goes to the person whose post you're replying to, not to the list. Is there > > anyway for that to be fixed or else I probably won't post again. : ( > > Cheers, > > Gwendoline > > > > > > >Greetings, > > > > > >I'm new to this list and I thought I would make my debut with a couple of > > questions. First, where can I order the Permagenta paper from? My local > > art supply store looked at me like I was speaking gibberish when I asked > > for it (mind you they have everything else). : ) > > > > > >Secondly, my real question is, what on earth do I do with my period > > pigments? How do I turn powder to paint? I've got the shells, the glass > > thingy, etc... but, can't seem to make head or tails of any written > > instructions I've seen. I really learn best visually but, I'm hoping that > > someone can make it clearer than Cennini? > > > > > >Cheers, > > >Gwendoline Rosamond (Ealdormere) > > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:45:44 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: Fwd: framing tangent Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame I have done this by backing two thin frames to each other and putting enough layers of matting inside to fill the space. If the mattes are joined with glue or tape somewhere the art won't slip. I joined the frames on the sides with small decorative brass hinges which I screwed onto the frames. Opening the frame later is easy, since all you have to do is open one side. RanthulfR Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote: > > >Greetings, > > > > > >>The one scroll I did where I've used pendant seals was a double sided > >>scroll (it's up on my web page if you want to take a look, including the > >>seals). And because of that, I wanted to double glaze the frame (i.e. > >>glass on either side of the scroll). I found it a lot easier to frame it > >>by cutting a square mat with the seals hanging free within the square, and > >>matted on the other 3 sides. To keep the scroll from sliding out of the > >>mat since it wasn't supported on the bottom, I stitched the top of the > >>scroll to a piece of linen and clued the linen into the mat sandwich. > >>Since this was on real vellum I wasn't worried about the stitches ripping > >>thru it. > > > >This reminds me I have a small manuscript page, it needs to be framed. > However, it is double sided and I would like it framed so that both sides > are visible but, it is in a conservation grade "setting." My parents have > a framing business but, my dad hasn't worked with anything like this before > so is a bit at a loss. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > > >Cheers, > >Gwendoline > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:09:44 -0800 (PST) From: Mary Haselbauer Subject: [scribes]: wax seals In Calontir we use a variety of sealing methods depending on the persona and tastes of the crown as well as the artist and the recipient. Looking at the wall of awards there was one rubber stamp (from 12 years ago) several coins or metal seals attached by woven cord and lots of pendant wax seals. The wax used is purple carving wax. Some of the pendant seals are attached so that they hang within the area of the sheet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:24:49 -0800 From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: [FWD] auto-bounced email to scribes list Please reply to the initial sender, not to me. tks postmaster@castle.org - ------- Forwarded Message From: "Elyse Boucher" To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Various Notes: Reply to list, Seals, other stuff. [longish] Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:05:14 Message-ID: Greetings from the humble scribe Merouda Pendray. On the quirks of this much-appreciated list: You know, I s*bscribe to the digest format primarily to cut down on the space that all these missives take in my extremely limited hotmail box, but it does have a few advantages. The first advantage is that attachments *always* get coverted to ascii, thereby disabling the functionality of viruses. Every one else gets .exe files; I get line after line of random letters, like this: AAAKJDFHSJHJJJJJJJJJJAAAAAAAA It does have one quirk, and that quirk is the primary reason that practicioners of good netiquette send emails to mail lists in ASCII format rather than as MIME or RTF or whatever enriched format you use: these files, too, get converted to ASCII, leaving enriched messages displaying as the ocassional phrase hidden in masses of coding. If you have RTF or MIME or HTML or whatever turned on, please turn it off. The ability to print green text instead of black text is great, but not at the cost of making the entirety of your message illegible. Be that as it may, the other big advantage, as far is this list is concerned, is that reply to list goes to "owner-scribes@castle.org." Delete the "owner-" bit and you are good to go. Of course, it's also best to change the subject line, but one should probably do that, anyway. Seals in the Middle Kingdom: The Midrealm does, in fact, primarily use a rubber stamp. However, I know most certainly that there are pockets of seal use in the MK--Northshield and Northern Midlands, at least. We have several people (Lady Clare, are you still on this list? THL Peter Goldsmith? Lord Gevehard? THL Gwenhyfwar?) who have made seals for use either by particular royalty or for general kingdom use. Most typically, I see them used as impressed wafers that are later glued to scrolls, but I have also seen seals set around velvet ribbons and then, when it's time for the seals to be used, the Signet threads the ribbon through the scroll. It's very nice looking. When the one is in a Kingdom as large as the Middle, it's certainly true that things can be happening on one end that are totally unkown to the other end. :-) I have gotten into the habit, myself, of dropping a circle of paper on a string from my scrolls, as the area for the stamp; this allows the recipient to display the stamp without it actually being on my scroll, and works well as a dependent tag to glue the wafer seals to when such are used. And, of course, because it's paper, it's easy to tuck up behind the scroll and not display at all if the recipient prefers not to display the rubber stamp type of seal. I've ocassionally seen sculpy seals used, too, which are fun, but you have to be careful in choosing your color and in making the seal sufficiently thin. AT this point in time, I'd rather see sculpy seals than the rubber stamps, but that's just my opinion. We all know what opinions are worth. ;-) And, at last, the last bit of mental meandering included in this particular missive: As some of you know, I'm a little research geek, and someday I hope to know at least a quarter of all the things I'm trying to learn. My most recent forray has been into the life of the Chancery scribe; recently, I've been taking the tack of researching royal secretaries, because finding good, solid information on Chancery life is nowhere as easy as finding out about life in the scriptorium or atlier. Anyway, while researching secretaties, I was reading "Scribes and sources : handbook of the chancery hand in the sixteenth century : texts from the writing-masters", selected, introduced and translated by A. S. Osley, with an account of John de Beauchesne by Berthold Wolpe. Publisher Boston : D. R. Godine, 1980. I had been meaning to read it for quite some time, and have at last gotten to it. ;-) Anyway, I thought I'd mention that one of the writing masters (I'm at work without the book, so I can't be more specific at the moment) talks about writing on colored papers. Now, I have only seen reproductions of documents on uncolored vellum or paper, but I was very interested to note that this guy does talk about writing letters on colored paper. Personally, I enjoy doing calligraphy upon a ground of white or cream, but I also love doing calligraphy against pale green or pale blue, or a brown walnut ink on a faintly pink paper. There are a number of receipts for making colored papers in Cennini and such things, so one could make a case for doing a scroll on colored paper based on this bit of slim evidence, at least within the narrow context of the 16th century. However, I thought I'd ask on list if anyone can think of a colored document. There are lots of examples of drawing on colored paper (Holbein and Clouet (sp?) sketches come to mind), and some examples of colored vellum books (such as the various purple manuscripts in early period or the boheimian version of the Travels of Sir John Mandeville), but I'm not able to recall a specific example of a period document on colored paper. Several of the writing masters in the above-referenced book mention that they are putting out their books, in part, to help secretaries learn a better hand, and there is a neat kind of contrast between the writing masters who insist that all nobles should be able to write a fair hand rather than relying on secretaries all the time and the writing masters who are directing their books towards secretaries. There is a nifty little subsection by one of the masters that talks about what a good secretary is, but it is, unfortunately, directed more along the lines of a few words about the secretaries work skills and tons of moralizing about the secretary's character. ANYWAY, this is why it takes me years to research things. I get so sidtracked by interesting tidbits along the way. Like looking for further evidence of documents on colored paper. Is anyone out there aware of such further evidence? Got any suggestions? Your Servant, Merouda _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - ------- End of Forwarded Message =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:10:51 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: wax seal question Actually, the Middle has a couple of them. I personally made a couple copies of one the size of a 35mm film jar cap. Had the text around an armorial display. Then a friend and I build and decorated a fancy box for the sealing gear. Since then we have had at least one other large diameter seal added to the regalia. Yet for some mysterious reason these are only pulled out on request. Some of the gear has even been lost between reigns. It's kinda disheartening. RanthulfR Jennifer wrote: > > Gwen, > > The Kingdom of Ealdormere already has a wax seal. It just rarely gets used. > > Genevieve > Ealdormere > (former kingdom signet) > > >Yes. Buy them one as a gift, along with plenty of wax. > > > >Corinna > >Treegirtsea > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:12 PM > >Subject: Fwd: Re: [scribes]: wax seal question > > > > > >> >Greetings, > >> > > >> >I'm from Ealdormere and we've inherited the Middle's habit for rubber > >> stamp seals. Does anyone have any suggestions for trying to convert the > >> kingdom to a wax seal? > >> > > >> >Cheers, > >> >Gwendoline ( Who has been known to make them seal the backs of her > >scrolls) > >> > > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:06:30 -0500 From: "Jennifer" Subject: Re: Re: [scribes]: wax seal question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C0A271.F5BD4540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Despina wrote: "Sounds like you just have to get them some wax - as a hint - and = specifically request that your scrolls (those you receive as well as = those you make) are impressed rather than rubber stamped. Thanks to you = Genevieve, as I now know I can request such a seal for a couple of = scrolls I am doing for Ealdormerians. :)" Well I am in the process of confirming my information. I will get back = to you on it.=20 But personally, I wouldn't want any of my scrolls to be wax sealed, no = matter that it is more period. Its too damn expensive to frame scrolls = as it is. Adding a 3-d seal on would mean more work and more money. = Sorry, I spend far too much money as it is on this hobby. No thanks - no = wax for me. I am just fine with the standard ink seals. Personally I think it should be up to the recipient if there is an = option. After all it is their scroll. That's my opinion though. "Hey, Gwen, have you anyone in mind for making your Laurel scroll yet? = and when is your date? Inquiring minds and itchy fingers want to = know..... *grin*" Gwen - close your eyes from here on....! Well to tell you the truth I have been asked by Gwen's husband to do her = scroll. But I could use some help on it. :) I am looking for sources of Elizabethan illumination and if they ever = used coloured parchments for their manuscripts. As for dates, Gwen will sit her Vigil at Winter War this weekend, and = should she decide to accept the Crown's offer (as if she'd say no), her = elevation will be at Ealdormere Coronation on April 21st, 2001. cheers, Genevieve Ealdormere - ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C0A271.F5BD4540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Despina wrote:
 
"Sounds like you just have to get them some wax - as = a hint -=20 and specifically request that your scrolls (those you receive as well as = those=20 you make) are impressed rather than rubber stamped.  Thanks to you=20 Genevieve, as I now know I can request such a seal for a couple of = scrolls I am=20 doing for Ealdormerians. :)"
 
Well I am in the process of confirming my = information. I will=20 get back to you on it.
 
But personally, I wouldn't want any of my scrolls to = be wax=20 sealed, no matter that it is more period. Its too damn expensive to = frame=20 scrolls as it is. Adding a 3-d seal on would mean more work and more = money.=20 Sorry, I spend far too much money as it is on this hobby. No thanks - no = wax for=20 me. I am just fine with the standard ink seals.
 
Personally I think it should be up to the recipient = if there=20 is an option. After all it is their scroll. That's my opinion=20 though.
 

"Hey, Gwen, have you anyone in mind for making = your Laurel=20 scroll yet? and when is your date? Inquiring minds and itchy fingers = want to=20 know..... *grin*"
 
Gwen - close your eyes from here on....!
 
Well to tell you the truth I have been asked by = Gwen's husband=20 to do her scroll.
But I could use some help on it. :)
I am looking for sources of Elizabethan illumination = and if=20 they ever used coloured parchments for their = manuscripts.
As for dates, Gwen will sit her Vigil at Winter War = this=20 weekend, and should she decide to accept the Crown's offer (as if she'd = say no),=20 her elevation will be at Ealdormere Coronation on April 21st, = 2001.
 
cheers,
Genevieve
Ealdormere
- ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C0A271.F5BD4540-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V5 #49 ****************************