From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V5 #41 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Tuesday, February 27 2001 Volume 05 : Number 041 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: NY cloisters [scribes]: shipping scrolls Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes] My scrollbox overflowth... Re: [scribes]: Opaline vellum? Re: [scribes]: Opaline vellum? [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? Re: [scribes]: Illumination on Paper [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? [scribes]: Re:NY cloisters Re: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? [scribes]: How to get list as a digest [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? Re: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? Re: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? Fw: [scribes]: Paper preferences Re: Fw: [scribes]: Paper preferences [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame Fwd: Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 06:20:34 -0700 From: Mary Hysong Subject: [scribes]: NY cloisters I got to go to the Cloisters a couple of years ago. They had the Petite Hours of Duc du Berry on display as single sheets while they had it apart, I think for rebinding. Very, Very cool. But way too dark in the room to take my own pics. The herb gardens are interesting, the archetecture is interesting to see close up the marble, carved stone, et. Also some tomb effigies {I don't remember who, now, though}. My favortite thing though was the Unicorn tapestries. Best part is except for small and really valuable things {like books, jewelry} most of it is out in the open where you can get pretty close without a glass case. Though the guards will remind you if you are touching! {Imagine 3 costumers trying _not_ to touch a tomb effigy while tracing a seam line!!!} But maybe the best part was the gift shop/book store.....The clerk was trying to close up and literally booted me out! We spent a whole day and still didn't see one of the rooms. OH, yeah also some good panel paintings.....You don't realize how big some of these really were, likewise the tapestries. But wherever you go, have fun and a safe trip! Mairi =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:00:06 -0500 From: "Stear, Kelly" Subject: [scribes]: shipping scrolls Hello everyone! I'm currently looking at trying to ship scrolls to other Kingdoms. I have an idea as to how to go about this, I was curious as to what others have tried. If you have a success and/or a failure story on how to try and ship a scroll via snail mail I would love to hear it. :-) Thanks! Lady Una Nic Daffydd Kelly_Stear@urmc.rochester.edu =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:59:27 EST From: JFazio6634@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: [scribes] My scrollbox overflowth... In a message dated 2/27/01 1:51:13 AM Central Standard Time, japester@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au writes: > yes, goto the scribes group at www.yahoogroups.com, login and select your > preferences for the group. :) > This isn't a Yahoo group. Does anyone else know how I could get this list in digest form? Gilia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:34:41 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Opaline vellum? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A098.21156FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Anna, It's smoother and completely featureless. Just very translucent fairly = bright white. It's also smoother. It won't hide corrections as nicely = as natural-colour Pergamenata. I recently did a piece on Pergamenata which was accepted for the juried = show at the Newberry Library. Many people - full-time professional = scribes - mistook it for real vellum. No one would make that mistake = with Opaline. There is also a paper by Canson called Opalux. It's a = super-heavy-weight tracing paper in their Vidalon line. No Spam, but = rag, I believe acid-free, about the same weight, and looks almost = identical to Opaline except for a faintly eggshelly texture. I checked a couple of my usual suppliers and couldn't find Opaline = (although New York Central used to carry it). It's used a lot for = printing business cards, so I suggest a commercial supplier or printer. Corinna TreeGirtSea ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Anna Troy=20 To: scribes@castle.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:36 AM Subject: [scribes]: Opaline vellum? How does opaline (or spam) vellum handle in comparison to Pergamenata = and where can you get it? Anna de Byxe "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" HAS MOVED! to: http://owly.terrashare.com http://www.terrashare.com/join/owly=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A098.21156FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Anna,
 
It's smoother and completely = featureless. =20 Just very translucent fairly bright white.  It's also = smoother.  It=20 won't hide corrections as nicely as natural-colour = Pergamenata.
 
I recently did a piece on Pergamenata = which was=20 accepted for the juried show at the Newberry Library.  Many people = - -=20 full-time professional scribes - mistook it for real vellum.  No = one would=20 make that mistake with Opaline.
 
There is also a paper by Canson called=20 Opalux.  It's a super-heavy-weight tracing paper in their Vidalon=20 line.  No Spam, but rag, I believe acid-free, about the same = weight, and=20 looks almost identical to Opaline except for a faintly eggshelly=20 texture.
 
I checked a couple of my usual = suppliers and=20 couldn't find Opaline (although New York Central used to carry = it).  It's=20 used a lot for printing business cards, so I suggest a commercial = supplier or=20 printer.
 
Corinna
TreeGirtSea
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Anna = Troy=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, = 2001 1:36=20 AM
Subject: [scribes]: Opaline = vellum?

How does opaline (or spam) vellum  handle in = comparison to=20 Pergamenata and where can you get it?

Anna de = Byxe

"So many books, so little time."

"Anna's Crafts = Links=20 Page"  HAS MOVED! to:
http://owly.terrashare.com

http://www.terrashare.com/join/owly=20


- ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0A098.21156FA0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:24:15 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Opaline vellum? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0A09F.0DE30580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've just been searching the internet for Opaline. So far the closest = I've found is Opaline Peach Lovebirds. And it seems there are also = Opaline parakeets, and lots of cases on eBay. Is it possible this paper = is no longer made? Corinna ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Anna Troy=20 To: scribes@castle.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 1:36 AM Subject: [scribes]: Opaline vellum? How does opaline (or spam) vellum handle in comparison to Pergamenata = and where can you get it? Anna de Byxe "So many books, so little time." "Anna's Crafts Links Page" HAS MOVED! to: http://owly.terrashare.com http://www.terrashare.com/join/owly=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0A09F.0DE30580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've just been searching the internet = for=20 Opaline.  So far the closest I've found is Opaline Peach = Lovebirds. =20 And it seems there are also Opaline parakeets, and lots of cases on = eBay. =20 Is it possible this paper is no longer made?
 
Corinna
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Anna = Troy=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, = 2001 1:36=20 AM
Subject: [scribes]: Opaline = vellum?

How does opaline (or spam) vellum  handle in = comparison to=20 Pergamenata and where can you get it?

Anna de = Byxe

"So many books, so little time."

"Anna's Crafts = Links=20 Page"  HAS MOVED! to:
http://owly.terrashare.com

http://www.terrashare.com/join/owly=20


- ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0A09F.0DE30580-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:24:14 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? In a message dated 2/27/2001 9:35:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, uncial@ix.netcom.com writes: > t's smoother and completely featureless. Just very translucent fairly > bright white. It's also smoother. It won't hide corrections as nicely as > natural-colour Pergamenata. > > I recently did a piece on Pergamenata which was accepted for the juried show > at the Newberry Library. Many people - full-time professional scribes - > mistook it for real vellum. No one would make that mistake with Opaline. I have had different experiences. Opaline (spam) vellum has a smoother surface texture than pergamenta. The coloring is similar, but more subtle. Unlike pergamenta, opaline vellum does have the same translucent quality that vellum has. I find corrections just as easy to make on pergamenta and opaline as I do on real vellum. Although, since finding out that the pergamenta is changing color, I doubt I will be working with it again. I have to be careful when I get into the cabinet for supplies. I have several sheets of opaline vellum that look almost exactly like some of the thin manuscript vellum from Rick Cavasin. The vellum used for Morguhn & Meirwen's County book was an exact match in weight and color. Lady Antoinette of Stormsport had a piece of vellum last year that was so beautifully flawless that she thought there was something wrong with it. It was a dead on match for a sheet of opaline ... until you looked at it real close. Once you touched it, there was no doubt. I usually stock up on opaline vellum at Pennsic from The Limner's Guild. It costs about $25 - 30 a sheet. A comparable piece of real vellum will run around $125 Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:32:57 EST From: KATAKIRA@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illumination on Paper << Saradwen wrote: I swear up and down by Arches 140# hot press. Best stuff I was ever turned on to, and I just about won't use anything else! It's been made in France since 1492, so it's even period, but I'm quite sure they did not illuminate MSS. on it.>> Oh, I dunno, Saradwen. Arches was supplying paper to the stationer's studios in period. It could've happened. Wouldn't it be ultimately cool to get one's hands on -their- records to see what they were supplying to whom & when...then cross ref that with known paper MMS & incanabulars. My husband's job may require him to transfer to NE France in a couple of years. That's something to keep in mind to keep me out of trouble--French employment rules won't let me work full time, and the place we'd go if it happened is pretty well connected, train & highway-wise.... Katarina Peregrine =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:34:22 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? In a message dated 2/27/2001 10:24:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, uncial@ix.netcom.com writes: > > I've just been searching the internet for Opaline. So far the closest I' > ve found is Opaline Peach Lovebirds. And it seems there are also Opaline > parakeets, and lots of cases on eBay. Is it possible this paper is no longer > made? > > Corinna I can't find my catalog, so did a search for The Limners Guild, which is where I buy my opaline vellum, and found this information: SCA Limners Guild led by Mistress Baroness Megan ni Laine, Baroness Stonemarch (East Kingdom). Her address is: Linda Anfuso RD1 Box 134B Wilton, NH 03086 Hope this helps Eibhlin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:46:14 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:NY cloisters In a message dated 2/27/2001 8:22:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, ladymari@cybertrails.com writes: > I got to go to the Cloisters a couple of years ago. They had the Petite > Hours of Duc du Berry on display as single sheets while they had it > apart, I think for rebinding. Very, Very cool. But way too dark in the > room to take my own pics. I have a friend who went at the same time. She managed to get a couple of pictures for me with 800 speed film. She asked why the book had been taken apart and someone from the museum staff told her it would be getting a new binding.... but first it was going to be used to prepare a new facsimile book. :-) Maybe someone can check with the folks at The Cloisters to see if/when this can be expected .... or if they are planning on any other books on their collection in the near future. Eibhlin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:57:12 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? Dear folks, I've had better luck searching online for opaline vellum. The hit I would refer you to is from an e-list like ours, only about photogrpahy. It is in something of a q-and-a format. "--- You wrote: '..could somebody explain me what "sulfite papers" are? ..extremly thin or something else?, made of sulfite?' They are artificial vellum. Opaline & Opalux are both quite thick, but somewhat translucent, like tracing paper. Totally different coating experience!" Now, I can't vouch for this authority. But it has me wondering about the process by which "opaline vellum" is made. If the photographic "sulfite papers" and our calligraphy "opaline vellum" are the same thing, what is the PH of opaline? Might it be acidic and break down? - -- johannes v.n. "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -- Cathering Aird =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:02:05 -0800 From: "Teresa McCartney" Subject: [scribes]: How to get list as a digest Check your monthly "administrivia" mailings, which repeats the initial message you get when you join the list. They give all the instructions you need, including: >If you want to receive a digest version of this list, uns*bscribe >from scribes (see the instructions, above) and s*bscribe to >scribes-digest instead. HTH :) Teresa =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:17:13 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? In a message dated 2/27/2001 10:57:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, jcash@indiana.edu writes: > > They are artificial vellum. Opaline & Opalux are both quite thick, but > somewhat translucent, like tracing paper. > > Totally different coating experience!" > > Now, I can't vouch for this authority. But it has me wondering about the > process by which "opaline vellum" is made. If the photographic "sulfite > papers" and our calligraphy "opaline vellum" are the same thing, what is > the PH of opaline? Might it be acidic and break down? > > -- johannes v.n. I have a package of opaline tracing vellum. It's a drafting supply, but I use it in place of glassine paper for gilding. It does the same job, only it holds up better to the rigors of burnishing. It's quite different from the opaline vellum that we commonly call "spam". Opaline tracing vellum is 100% cotton paper. Opaline vellum is made from scraps of real vellum and processed like paper. Eibhlin =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:28:57 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? Thank you, Eibhlin! I went through some old catalogs and sample books, and found Opaline at Paper Routes in Dallas. I called, and was told that it's no longer made under that name. The company closed/sold out, and either it's been discontinued or is made under another name which she didn't know. Paper Routes has about 10-15 sheets left, $5.00 for 22x28. 214-828-9494. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 9:34 AM Subject: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? > I can't find my catalog, so did a search for The Limners Guild, which is > where I buy my opaline vellum, and found this information: > > SCA Limners Guild led by Mistress Baroness Megan ni Laine, Baroness > Stonemarch (East Kingdom). Her address is: > Linda Anfuso > RD1 > Box 134B > Wilton, NH 03086 > > Hope this helps > Eibhlin > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:38:52 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? Eibhlin, I get the feeling we're talking about two different Opalines! The stuff in my sample book, and the only one I've ever seen, is like a smooth tracing paper only heavy enough to print business cards, one of its major uses, and comes in humungous sheets for a few dollars (if you can find it). I've used real vellum and I'd never confuse the two! I shall definitely contact the Limners Guild and try a sheet of their Opaline (the next time I have an attack of solvency). Thank you for the warning about Pergamenata changing colour. I assume/hope that would only be when exposed to natural light. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 9:24 AM Subject: [scribes]: Re:Opaline vellum? > In a message dated 2/27/2001 9:35:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, > uncial@ix.netcom.com writes: > > > t's smoother and completely featureless. Just very translucent fairly > > bright white. It's also smoother. It won't hide corrections as nicely as > > natural-colour Pergamenata. > > > > I recently did a piece on Pergamenata which was accepted for the juried > show > > at the Newberry Library. Many people - full-time professional scribes - > > mistook it for real vellum. No one would make that mistake with Opaline. > > I have had different experiences. > > Opaline (spam) vellum has a smoother surface texture than pergamenta. The > coloring is similar, but more subtle. Unlike pergamenta, opaline vellum does > have the same translucent quality that vellum has. I find corrections just as > easy to make on pergamenta and opaline as I do on real vellum. Although, > since finding out that the pergamenta is changing color, I doubt I will be > working with it again. > > I have to be careful when I get into the cabinet for supplies. I have several > sheets of opaline vellum that look almost exactly like some of the thin > manuscript vellum from Rick Cavasin. The vellum used for Morguhn & Meirwen's > County book was an exact match in weight and color. Lady Antoinette of > Stormsport had a piece of vellum last year that was so beautifully flawless > that she thought there was something wrong with it. It was a dead on match > for a sheet of opaline ... until you looked at it real close. Once you > touched it, there was no doubt. > > I usually stock up on opaline vellum at Pennsic from The Limner's Guild. It > costs about $25 - 30 a sheet. A comparable piece of real vellum will run > around $125 > > Eibhlin ni Chaoimh > AEthelmearc > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:18:07 +0100 From: "Brahdelt" Subject: Fw: [scribes]: Paper preferences >Luighseach: There are many other great calligraphy papers, the problem is that most of them aren't heavy enough to put a wax seal on for a scroll.< Have you considered putting the wax seal not on the paper, but hanging down on a ribbon attached to a paper? Lady Finnarwen of Formendor Court Chronicler Principality of Draconia (Joanna Zelazko Warsaw, Poland) - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Visit my site: www.draconia.it.pl\kronikarz.html =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:58:08 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: Fw: [scribes]: Paper preferences >>Have you considered putting the wax seal not on the paper, but hanging down on a ribbon attached to a paper?<< We do that when there's not enough room on the scroll. I think most people prefer not to have pendant seals on their scrolls, though, because it's a lot easier to frame it when the seals are actually on the body of the scroll, rather than hanging down. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:57:49 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame I actually do this, and of course you won't tear the thin papers if the document is picked up by the seal. There is no reason why framing and matting can't still be done. One way to do this is to use a larger frame so there is room in the matte to custom cut a bay for the seal to rest inside. The slack on the ribbon is just drawn back into the backside of the document. The second way, which allows a smaller and cheaper frame, and doesn't require fancy matte cutting, is to simply use a long enough ribbon so that the seal hangs down beneath the frame. You just allow the ribbon to pass out through the opening of the frame between the matte and glass. The obvious problem with this is that seals are brittle and are thus exposed to being banged around. I would urge the former solution if you can arrange it. It looks REALLY cool. RanthulfR Brahdelt wrote: > > >Luighseach: There are many other great calligraphy papers, the problem is > that most of them aren't heavy enough to put a wax seal on for a scroll.< > > Have you considered putting the wax seal not on the paper, but hanging down > on a ribbon attached to a paper? > > Lady Finnarwen of Formendor > Court Chronicler > Principality of Draconia > > (Joanna Zelazko > Warsaw, Poland) > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Visit my site: www.draconia.it.pl\kronikarz.html > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:10:51 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame The problem with framing the pendant seals within the mat is that it adds a lot to your mat expense. I can cut my own mats as long as they're standard squares/rectangles or ovals/circles, as I have the equipment to do so. But if I"m picturing what you have in mind, Ranthulfr, you're saying to cut the square for the scroll, with 2 other circles in the mat below that for the seals. I agree with you that it would look way nifty, but when cutting mats by hand it would also be rather difficult. The one scroll I did where I've used pendant seals was a double sided scroll (it's up on my web page if you want to take a look, including the seals). And because of that, I wanted to double glaze the frame (i.e. glass on either side of the scroll). I found it a lot easier to frame it by cutting a square mat with the seals hanging free within the square, and matted on the other 3 sides. To keep the scroll from sliding out of the mat since it wasn't supported on the bottom, I stitched the top of the scroll to a piece of linen and clued the linen into the mat sandwich. Since this was on real vellum I wasn't worried about the stitches ripping thru it. I wouldn't recommend leaving the seals hanging outside of the frame. If you have to pay someone else to do your framing they probably wouldn't agree to it anyway, and it sounds like an excellent way to wind up with broken seals unless they are in cases. Even then, I think they'd make fascinating cat toys. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:53:34 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame Dear folks, We have a number of traditions and attempts at traditions concerning seals, most involving attaching hot wax to the paper and stamping it. (The Midrealm variant is to use a rubber stamp, am I right, Ranthlfr?) Sealing with wax this way is time-consuming, and requires both quality control and people who know what they're doing. Frequently one has neither the time, the materials or the expertise to do it right. Badly done, it damages the paper. Even well-done, the seal is not guaranteed to stay fixed to the page. In period, seals were attached as Finnarwen reports, by folding two inches or so of the bottom edge of parchment over, and stringing a cord or strip of parchment through holes or slots cut through the doubled edge, then attaching the seal to the cord or strip. They were considered legal documents; no one thought about framing them. My opinion, for those interested (those not may just move on at this point), is that sealing done the medieval way mentioned above would be quite proper, and as Ranthlfr says, not difficult to frame. As to sealing/stamping the scroll itself: If one could rely on those organizing courts to allow sufficient time to seal each one, if one could rely on someone always supplying quality sealing wax and working equipment, and if one could have someone around who knew the drill, it would be practical. Clearly it has proven so. But starting it up new, when no one knows the drill, would be a mistake. Moreover, I can't see how the procedure would not wind up damaging the scroll. Why purchase 100% cotton rag paper or expensive parchment, use hand-ground or expensive pigments, mixed by hand, and gold-leaf the scroll, only to hand it over to have wax dribbled on it? Sealing as we do it traditionally may be practical, and it may look "kewl," but from a craftsman's view it makes no sense. - -- johannes v.n. "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -- Cathering Aird =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:01:50 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Fwd: Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame - --=====================_950697951==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >At 02:10 PM 2/27/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >>The problem with framing the pendant seals within the mat is that it adds >>a lot to your mat expense. I can cut my own mats as long as they're >>standard squares/rectangles or ovals/circles, as I have the equipment to >>do so. But if I"m picturing what you have in mind, Ranthulfr, you're >>saying to cut the square for the scroll, with 2 other circles in the mat >>below that for the seals. I agree with you that it would look way >>nifty, but when cutting mats by hand it would also be rather difficult. > >I have seen such a thing as RanthulfR suggests and it is indeed >lovely. Rather than have the whole of it done professionally (the mat), >cut the matt and the space for the scrolls yourself and have the >professionals just cut out the places for the seals. I have heard of >people having this done and it is not so expensive. > >Despina - ---------- Time was under old Roman law when a father could sell his children at will or even kill them. Constantine changed all that. He decreed a father couldn't kill his children without cause. - --=====================_950697951==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:10 PM 2/27/2001 -0800, you wrote:

The problem with framing the pendant seals within the mat is that it adds a lot to your mat expense.  I can cut my own mats as long as they're standard squares/rectangles or ovals/circles, as I have the equipment to do so.  But if I"m picturing what you have in mind, Ranthulfr, you're saying to cut the square for the scroll, with 2 other circles in the mat below that for the seals.   I agree with you that it would look way nifty, but when cutting mats by hand it would also be rather difficult.

I have seen such a thing as RanthulfR suggests and it is indeed lovely.  Rather than have the whole of it done professionally (the mat), cut the matt and the space for the scrolls yourself and have the professionals just cut out the places for the seals.  I have heard of people having this done and it is not so expensive.

Despina

Time was under old Roman law when a father could sell his children at will
or even kill them. Constantine changed all that. He decreed a father
couldn't kill his children without cause.


- --=====================_950697951==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:09:00 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Wax seals in a frame - --=====================_951128640==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:53 PM 2/27/2001 -0500, john j cash wrote: >Dear folks, > >We have a number of traditions and attempts at traditions concerning >seals, most involving attaching hot wax to the paper and stamping it. >(The Midrealm variant is to use a rubber stamp, am I right, Ranthlfr?) I'm not RanthlfuR, but I can answer the question. Yes, the Midrealm uses a (personal opinion here) really tacky ink pad rubber stamp that is also often not carefully placed onto the scroll and can look just as tacky, or even more so, as improperly applied wax seals. With improperly attached wax seals, they can come off and still look nice and authentic - having the residue of the wax where the seal once was....on the other hand, a rubber stamp that was moved and the ink smudged is there forever and ruins a scroll just as much as an improperly applied wax seal. Cu Drag, Despina Middle Kingdom - --=====================_951128640==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 05:53 PM 2/27/2001 -0500, john j cash wrote:
Dear folks,

We have a number of traditions and attempts at traditions concerning
seals, most involving attaching hot wax to the paper and stamping it.
(The Midrealm variant is to use a rubber stamp, am I right, Ranthlfr?)

I'm not RanthlfuR, but I can answer the question.  Yes, the Midrealm uses a (personal opinion here) really tacky ink pad rubber stamp that is also often not carefully placed onto the scroll and can look just as tacky, or even more so, as improperly applied wax seals.

 With improperly attached wax seals, they can come off and still look nice and authentic - having the residue of the wax where the seal once was....on the other hand, a rubber stamp that was moved and the ink smudged is there forever and ruins a scroll just as much as an improperly applied wax seal.

Cu Drag,
Despina
Middle Kingdom - --=====================_951128640==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V5 #41 ****************************