From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V5 #9 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 05 : Number 009 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: psuedo topic [scribes]: Divit [scribes]: Leaves of Gold : Mediaeval MSS. Exhibitions in Philadelphia Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic Re: [scribes]: Divit Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic [scribes]: Dover's Book of Kells Re: [scribes]: Info on Script [scribes]: Mediaeval Calligraphy web site [scribes]: MS. leaves for sale Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:05:59 -0000 From: "Russell mahee of acre" Subject: [scribes]: psuedo topic I think I have found aleast one of the complaints against psuedo-scripts. I recently looked at a piece that a friend on another list posted and who knows, they may lerk here as well, but... The work was really nice, but the psuedo script was neither readable in english, nor arabic. Please do not get me wrong...the scroll looked good, but I could not make out a word of it, in any language. If this is one of the beafs Johaunes(sp) and other scribes have against psuedo-scripts, I can see where they got atleast this one from. Now I must work to make sure mine is more readable, so I cannot say the same thing about me. The scroll really did look good though. your servant, mahee ps, any one know where a divit (not a golf divit) can be found for sale at a reasonable price? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:10:17 -0000 From: "Russell mahee of acre" Subject: [scribes]: Divit A divit is a long slender metal case that opens at one end for holding reed pens. It has attached at one end-side a squarish metal box with a wodd of raw silk in acting like a spunge filled with ink. The spunge was to make it so the ink would not spill out of the container, because it was worn sideways. Thank you for asking. I hope my anwer makes sense. your servant, mahee _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:38:15 -0600 (CST) From: sburnell@raex.com Subject: [scribes]: Leaves of Gold : Mediaeval MSS. Exhibitions in Philadelphia Hey, anybody wanna take a road trip to Philadelphia? Check this out: ****************************************************************** This spring, the Philadelphia Museum of Art will have an exhibition of medieval manuscripts from the collections of Philadelphia area libraries. The exhibition, entitled Leaves of Gold: Treasures of ManuscriptIllumination from Philadelphia Collections, will open March 10 and continue through May 13. It is a project of the Museum in Collaboration with the Philadelphia Area Consortium of Special Collections Libraries (PACSCL). It will be documented in a 240-page catalog with 95 color illustration, a CD-ROM offering in-depth looks at seven representative manuscripts, and a web site (still in preparation) that will include exhibition text and illustrations of additional openings of the codices in the exhibition. Seven PACSCL member libraries are mounting complementary exhibitions at the same time, and there are several public programs. The exhibition will travel to the new Frist Galleries, Nashville, in fall 2001. Futher details can be found at the PACSCL web site, http://www.pacscl.org/ ****************************************************************** Nashville isn't so far from where I am, NE Ohio, either! Drove it a few years ago and all told, with stops, it was about 9 hours. This sounds like a real treat! I wanna go!! ~Saradwen, always game for a road trip! Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:21:41 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic Dear Mahee, > The work was really nice, but the psuedo script was neither readable in > english, nor arabic. Please do not get me wrong...the scroll looked good, > but I could not make out a word of it, in any language. > > If this is one of the beafs Johaunes(sp) and other scribes have against > psuedo-scripts, I can see where they got atleast this one from. That is indeed one problem with pseudo-scripts: they don't always do what they claim to do, the result can be no more legible than the scripts they imitate. More to the point, being imitations with no period sources to refer to, how does one know if one has done them "right"? If one is going to put the time into any piece of calligraphy, it should at least (1) be done "right" and (2) fulfill the expectations the viewers have of it. johannes v.n. "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -- Cathering Aird =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:41:29 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: Divit Dear Mahee, What you describe as a divit, I am familiar with as a penner and inkwell. A variety of designs exist in period, made from a variety of materials: metal, bone or ivory, boiled leather, possibly wood. Islamic ones seem to be of the sort you describe: a long tube to hold the pens, and a small box to hold the ink; the two attach to form an oblong case. It might be possible to reproduce this easily, using a few modern materials. I've made a few penners after a design shown in the "Tres Riches Heures" (the picture of St. John on Patmos), by covering a plastic toothbrush-holder with leather and lining it with paper or parchment. This is not, of course, the period way to do it, but is a step towards it, and the results are not too shabby at all. - -- johannes v.n. "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -- Cathering Aird =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:04:02 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic >>More to the point, being imitations with no period sources to refer to, how does one know if one has done them "right"?<< On the other hand, if one is making up a script - how can it be done "wrong"? Mahee brings up an interesting point in the script he saw not being readable in either English or Arabic (it was intended to be in arabic looking English, I assume). But that does really make it wrong? The person who wrote it may have been deliberately going for the look they achieved, in which case they did it right. But to Mahee it looks wrong, but that's just his opinion. That's the problem inherent in any art. I personally don't like any of the modern artists, but that doesn't mean they did their work "wrong". Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:33:05 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: [scribes]: Dover's Book of Kells I'm still going thru the bookshelves for things to get rid of and came across this: The Book of Kells: Selected plates in full Color. Edited by Blanche Cirker. Published by Dover. ISBN 0-486-24345-1. This is a 32 page book of color plates from Kells. There is a small introduction on the inside front cover, but other than that it's just plates. If you're interested, I'd like $2 for it plus shipping (figure about $1 within the US). Contact me off list. Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:43:18 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Info on Script > Could I asked that those with Backhouse's "Illuminated Page" take a look > at page 135 and give me an opinion as to the hand used on the page shown > on the right. I'm not so good at deciphering scripts and my eyes aren't > too good either! I tried enlarging, but it got too blurry and I can't > seem to find any info on the source. It looks like a Bātarde variant of some sort. I've got my copy of the book right here and I used my little magnifier that came with my "Champion" model Swiss Army knife to look at it REALLY up close. Considering that the MS. in question, "Larbre des Batailles" is French, ca. 1400, this would be in keeping with the script that would have been used at that time. I searched for the script in "The Historical Source Book for Scribes" by Michelle P. Brown and Patricia Lovett and although the Bātarde illustrated does not exactly match the one in the "Backhouse" book, still, I would make an educated guess that this is some Bātarde variant of some kind. ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:47:24 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: [scribes]: Mediaeval Calligraphy web site While trying to research a question asked earlier on this list (about the script used on the one MS. in Backhouse's "Illuminated Page"), I stumbled on this web site: http://dcepea.harvard.edu/extension/humae105/fall97/twest/index.htm I had typed "Batarde script" into a search engine and came up with this particular site. It's really nice and warrants checking out! I'm going to bookmark it and put it in my "Illumination" bookmark file, which keeps growing.............and growing.................and growing................ Enjoy! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:58:45 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: [scribes]: MS. leaves for sale Wow, am I ever having fun surfing sites having to do with Manuscripts! Here's one I found that sells Illuminated Manuscript pages that is even local to me - and NO, it's not even Bruce Ferrini! Someone else in the Akron-Fairlawn area who is selling individual leaves! Katarina (Peregrine, that is!), do you know these folks at all, since you're selling stuff that used to be in Bruce's inventory? Here's their web site URL: http://www.mackusco.com/companyinfo.htm Funny that I've never heard of them! Well, you learn something new every day, huh? ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:10:34 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic Dear folks, Tetchubah writes, > >>More to the point, being imitations with no period sources to refer to, > how does one know if one has done them "right"?<< > > On the other hand, if one is making up a script - how can it be done > "wrong"? > > Mahee brings up an interesting point in the script he saw not being > readable in either English or Arabic (it was intended to be in arabic > looking English, I assume). But that does really make it wrong? The > person who wrote it may have been deliberately going for the look they > achieved, in which case they did it right. But to Mahee it looks wrong, > but that's just his opinion. That's the problem inherent in any art. I > personally don't like any of the modern artists, but that doesn't mean they > did their work "wrong". I used the word "right" and put it in quotation marks deliberately, because this is email and it's hard to deal with a complex thing like aesthetics in this format. The next step removed, where Tetchubah has placed us, is not "right" and "wrong" but "well" and "badly." I would say, when calligraphy is not done "right" (note the quotation marks), it simply shows that improvement is necessary, it doesn't indicate the scribe is a bad person. It is calligraphy not done "well." But it is necessary for some action to be taken at that point, so that it can be done "better." We ought to have an idea of what action that should be. I think "well-done" or "poorly-done" are basics; I think we need to have a consensus about what "well-done" can mean (even for pseudo-scripts); and I don't think it is inimical to art or to the SCA to have that consensus or to teach new people about it. - -- johannes v.n. "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -- Cathering Aird =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:22:55 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: psuedo topic Would we know what a "divit" is by any other name? The only sort I know is "center divit" used in drafting for making multiple concentric circles/arches without the compass point damaging the paper. A good drafting supply shop should have one. Corinna TreeGirtSea - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell mahee of acre" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: [scribes]: psuedo topic - -scripts, I can see where they got atleast this one from. > > ps, any one know where a divit (not a golf divit) can be found for sale at a > reasonable price? > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V5 #9 ***************************