From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V5 #4 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Saturday, February 10 2001 Volume 05 : Number 004 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding [scribes]: Flat gilding [scribes]: translators [scribes]: Known World Heraldic Symposium [scribes]: Glair as gilding base [scribes]: Re: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: translators Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding [scribes]: Flat gilding RE: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:42:35 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C09168.078D4920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where do you find gum ammoniac in powdered or liquid form? All I've = ever found were the crystals. Corinna - ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C09168.078D4920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Where do you find gum ammoniac in = powdered or=20 liquid form?  All I've ever found were the crystals.
 
Corinna
- ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C09168.078D4920-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:54:57 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Hi Helen - I've used glair for gilding. Or, more precisely, I've used straight egg white. I was doing a huge (about 9") historiated initial with a raised pattern in the gold and a line of 2" high writing below. I only had enough gesso for the writing, so I used acrylic gesso for the big initial. It worked very well, but in a few places it wouldn't stick and I used the egg white for patching. (I was a beginner and thus very willing to improvise). The final effect was still a little patchy, so I borrowed some leather stamps and tooled the unraised parts. Inside this giant letter is a sun in splendor gilded flat with polymer medium on a geometric silver (aluminum) and blue background. The aluminum is stuck with garlic juice. This piece is framed under glass, and after 20 years or so none of this mess of metal has fallen off. Corinna - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Schultz" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding > When I mentioned the different binders, I was referring mostly to painting... I > don't think I have heard of anyone using egg yolk or glair for flat gilding -- > but I could be wrong. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:33:08 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: Flat gilding Snip... >> Garlic juice usually is not used as a binder... I suppose it could, but since >> gum arabic, egg white, or egg yolk is so readily available, why??? > >Oh, really? But didn't someone say that garlic juice could be really sticky? Snip again. The main reason that garlic juice is not used as a binder, is that it stays sticky. Even after it is 'dry,' it is still slightly sticky to the touch. The slightest moisture will re-activate it. (I'm told by a conservationist friend, that an unfinished manuscript page using garlic flat-gilding from several hundred years ago, could still be gilded today.) If you were using it as a paint binder, this would definitely be a disadvantage. In a book, the pages rubbing against each other would rub the paint off. A painting displayed on the wall would be subject to any moisture in the air. Gold leaf is a little bit different. Since you are applying a layer of metal over the garlic, (admittedly a very thin layer) it is protected somewhat from the atmosphere and moisture. Egg yolk is not a good binder for gilding, but that explanation is considerably longer. As a binder for paint on flat, hard panel, it is wonderful! Ellen of the Scholars =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:42:24 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: [scribes]: translators - --=====================_142823789==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bryan, Have I got such a deal for you! There exists an SCA translator site on the web, and it is wonderful! People can sign up to be a translator or one can go there to have a scroll translated. Personally, I have had one translation completed from a translator on the site and I am waiting on a few more. It is a wonderful thing, I'm telling you. This site is intended for SCA purposes only. It's intent was to translate scrolls and mottos into appropriate languages for the recipients/scroll style. If you want to get better with your translation skills, this is a good place to do it, and help out others.... http://translate.thibault.org/ Just a thought, and a reminder to anyone who had forgotten about it, as well as a heads up for those new to the list. Cu Drag, Despina - --=====================_142823789==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Bryan,

Have I got such a deal for you!  There exists an SCA translator site on the web, and it is wonderful!  People can sign up to be a translator or one can go there to have a scroll translated.  Personally, I have had one translation completed from a translator on the site and I am waiting on a few more.  It is a wonderful thing, I'm telling you.

This site is intended for SCA purposes only.   It's intent was to translate scrolls and mottos into appropriate languages for the recipients/scroll style.  If you want to get better with your translation skills, this is a good place to do it, and help out others....

http://translate.thibault.org/

Just a thought, and a reminder to anyone who had forgotten about it, as well as a heads up for those new to the list.

Cu Drag,
Despina

 - --=====================_142823789==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:36:29 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: Known World Heraldic Symposium Despina and all, The Known World Heraldic Symposium will be held in Nordskogen (Bloomington, MN) June 2nd. You can get details at their website: http://kwhs2001.northshield.org/ I believe they were still looking for a few teachers. Ellen of the Scholars Middle Kingdom =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 14:49:41 From: "Elyse Boucher" Subject: [scribes]: Glair as gilding base Greetings from the humble scribe Merouda Pendray. Yes, glair can be used as a gilding base, either on its own or as part of your gesso receipe. There are several references to it is a couple of the period materials manuals, although I'm not near my library to look up the specific period manuals. I've done it, and like everything else, depending on the atmospheric conditions, it either worked just fine or it's a nightmare. As Corinna pointed out, just about anything sticky and flexible will work. TTFN, Meoruda _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:31:43 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Flat gilding In a message dated 2/8/01 5:46:41 AM, meistern@netusa1.net writes: > >When I mentioned the different binders, I was referring mostly to painting...I >don't think I have heard of anyone using egg yolk or glair for flat gilding >-- but I could be wrong. I've tried all kinds of concoctions :-) Glair with a tiny bit of honey will work as a flat size. There are other things that IMHO work better, but this will hold gold to paper.... if that's all you're after. I use this occasionally when I do raised gilding and I find a spot where I haven't kept the gesso stirred enough and it has seperated. More or less, I'm trying to apply gold to plaster. Rather than scraping all of the gesso off... along with any gold that has managed to stick, I just paint down a coat or two of glair and honey. When it dries I can place gold on top of it without any trouble. I get better results on gesso than on paper because flat size will mimic the surface it's applied to. Paper fibers are rough compared to gesso. I used to use gum ammoniac exclusively for flat size. The last couple of batches I bought turned grainy and weren't sticky at all. I'm still experimenting with different things to find something that works as well as my prior experiences with gum ammoniac, but I'm not having much luck. I have used glair in a raised gesso too.... my first attempt at gilding. I didn't have hide glue so I substituted glair in my recipe. It's a little more brittle and didn't burnish as smooth as gesso made with hide glue. I wouldn't use this again.... unless I didn't have a choice of materials. >Since I haven't had the luxury < ? > of smelling rotten glair yet, I can't say >if it is worse than gum ammoniac... but, just think of the name... ammoniac >-- ammonia... not the same smell, but both are equally "pungent." FWIW - I have some glair that is over 2 years old. It works wonderfully well and doesn't smell that bad. I have several different bottles of glair (I keep at least one from every painting class I teach) At about 6 months it is at it's most pungent. After that, the smell starts to lessen a bit. Its no worse than ox gall after about a year. Old glair is a dream to work with. It flows just like water. :-) In my classes I like to get folks busy making paint with new glair or egg yolk and while they are occupied I mix up a bit of paint with old glair. After I'm done I ask if anyone smells something funny. The answer is usually "No" or "Just eggs". You should see the look on their faces when I hold up the bottle of year old glair I just used to make the paint. I pass it around and they get to feel the difference in the flow of the paint made with fresh glair and the paint made with old glair. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:52:45 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding >>When I mentioned the different binders, I was referring mostly to painting... I don't think I have heard of anyone using egg yolk or glair for flat gilding - -- but I could be wrong.<< Actually, I mentioned using glair for flat gilding. But not by itself (mixed with bole). It's a technique I learned from Paul Werner. >>Since I haven't had the luxury < ? > of smelling rotten glair yet, I can't say if it is worse than gum ammoniac... but, just think of the name... ammoniac - -- ammonia... not the same smell, but both are equally "pungent." << I have - my personal opinion is that rotten glair smells better than ammonia/ammoniac. Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Bell Subject: Re: [scribes]: translators Greetings, Despina! Thank you for the info on the SCA translators site--I'll have to check it out. I didn't realize there was such a site! :) I'm licensed to translate technical documents from German to English (went through a nifty 3-year program at my undergrad college), but I'm always looking to expand my horizons on new terminology....and I have seen plenty in all of these posts! (like mordant, shell gold, etc. LOL) Flourishes, Bryan (mundane) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:35:36 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding OK, I think I am beginning to get a handle on this flat gilding stuff. What's been throwing me is the use of the word "mordant", which I associate with dyeing, since in that art you use a mordant as something to help set the dye, as well as to change the colour or hue of the dye, depending on what mordant you use. So it would seem, then, that you can use garlic juice, old stale beer, gum ammoniac or any number of things as a way to make the gold adhere to the page, correct? Once you apply your "mordant", how long do you wait for it to dry before you apply the gold? Is it a long process, like raised gesso gilding, where you have to wait for the gesso to dry 24 hours before you apply the gold, or can you pretty much apply it right away? Also, if you wanted to add some bole (or some other colouring agent) for warming the tone of your gold, would you mix that in with your mordant? In raised gesso gilding, you add bole to your gesso mixture so that your gold will have that nice warm tone. Thanks to all so far who have so patiently answered my questions! This process just intrigues me and I wanted to find out a bit about it so that should I ever want to try it, I'd have adquate information to go on. I am given to understand that if you buy those gilding kits at War from the Gabriel Guild, that the instructions are fairly rudimentary. Having all of you with your various experiences to come to with so many questions will certainly fill in the blanks should I ever purchase one of those kits! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:27:09 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: Flat gilding Greetings, Saradwen. As you say, the terminology can be confusing. The various adhesives we are all calling mordants have also been called binder, size, and ground in the books I have seen; sometimes interchangeably, sometimes a specific name is used for each specific adhesive (size frequently refers specifically to glue made from parchment scraps, but I have also seen it applied to all forms of gold leaf adhesive. It is also a name for a substance applied to fabric as a non-gilding term.) You can pretty much use anything sticky to apply gold to a surface. The trick is to find an adhesive that has the specific characteristics best suited to the surface you are gilding. Gum ammoniac, garlic, and glair all work very well on paper or parchment. They have just the right amount of stickiness without becoming brittle over time. Of course, if you are gilding on wood, or a surface that will be outdoors, you will want something that won't be water soluble, like wax, oil, etc. (Also used in period for gilding.) The mordant (to use the term we have all been bandying about) is usually applied with a brush or pen, then allowed to dry. I am impatient. I only wait a few minutes until the garlic or whatever is no longer obviously wet, then apply the leaf. I will wait a bit longer until I really start burnishing though. I just stick it down good with my burnisher through a piece of glassine paper, then let it sit for 15 minutes (or until I get impatient again). Then I begin to burnish, still through glassine. I may have to stop and wait a bit more if I notice it sticking to the glassine, or if the gold is not burnishing well. Obviously, all this will vary depending on the weather, the surface you're gilding, whether you burnish on a hard surface or a softer one, and who-know-what-else. If you really can't get it to work, you might try waiting overnight, or even a day or two, until conditions change. The really wonderful thing about garlic juice and gum ammoniac, is that you can wait indefinitely before you lay the gold leaf. The stuff stays ready to gild forever. All you need do is breathe heavily on it to re-activate the stickiness, then lay your gold. Of course, if you're going to wait a long time, you want to store it someplace where it won't get dusty. (You may be able to wait with glair as well, but I haven't tried it yet - time for another experiment!) You can pretty much mix any of the 'earth' pigments with your mordant (bole, sienna, yellow ocher) or a bit of watercolor. Whatever works best for you. Ellen of the Scholars Middle Kingdom =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:49:40 -0500 From: LINDA PANCRAZIO Subject: RE: [scribes]: Flat gilding Once, when I was still a newbie and I was asking a Laurel about gilding... she asked me what size I was using... I held up my fingers to make a 4" square . I felt so silly when she told me she meant glue. Geva =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:36:06 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding >>Of course, if you are gilding on wood, or a surface that will be outdoors, you will want something that won't be water soluble, like wax, oil, etc. (Also used in period for gilding.)<< Actually, I think most of the gilded panels you see in period for icons, altars, etc. were water gilded rather than using wax or oil. Oil was definitely used on exterior stuff, though. But that shiny bright surface is more easily achieved using simple water on gessoed panels. It's a very similar technique to what we do with manuscripts (i.e. breathing on the gesso) but on a larger scale. Tetchubah of Greenlake =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V5 #4 ***************************