From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V5 #3 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 05 : Number 003 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Manuscripts Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding [scribes]: Flat gilding [scribes]: making shell gold [was Re: Black Manuscripts] Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: New scroll pictures Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Manuscripts Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:02:20 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Manuscripts Greetings Giles, Thank you for a highly informative post. I would like to take exception to one small detail: > As to technicalities, the text in these manuscripts looks to be gold and > silver leaf rather than shell gold. Gilding over a diluted gesso written > with a quill produces exactly this effect, and was used in several > manuscripts and documents for metallic lettering around and after this > date. It seems logical to assume this is the case here (if somewhat > wasteful of gold). Although this technique is wasteful of the labour of making the leaf, the gold itself is not wasted. Those bits are carefully brushed into a suitable container and later washed, ground and made into shell gold. I haven't learned the exact process yet, but I have a nice little glass jar full of these sweepings. I also have a retrieval jar for shell gold. It's filled with distilled water, and I use it when I absolutely must rinse my brush. I also put the empty plastic pans in it to wash off the last tiny bits. When there's enough accumulated at the bottom of the jar, I'll pour off the water and use the gold. Corinna TreeGirtSea =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:02:21 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Siobhan: Be really careful with the piece after you get the gold all down... I have found that garlic juice tends to stay "sticky" for a week afterwards I agree with Despina... the stamps paper is an emergency situation at best (but only if you use the inside against your gold -- the outside will have hand oils on it)... glassine is not overly expensive, and it works much better (as long as you can keep your greasy fingers off the part you are laying over the gold... one of my bad habits ). I rarely can do gilding with less than two layers... use your glassine paper to check for uncovered areas -- it is amazing what you can "see" through that slightly opaque paper. I always fold over my gold as far as it will go... I hate waste, yet don't try to save my wipe-away stuff to make into shell gold. And, Eibhlin is correct... just puff your little heart out to put down a second layer... gold will stick to gold with just a touch of moisture in that manner. I've puffed too much from time to time, and watched that lovely gold leaf practically "sink" into the ground... frustrating, to say the least... but not unfixable. I'm not sure if you can direct burnish on garlic, I've not tried it. I've only been able to do it with acrylic gesso or traditional gesso grounds. I recommend Despina's suggestion of the silk... as that works really nice. Buffs it up perfectly (well, not quite as nice as a direct burnish, but not shoddy, either). You shouldn't have to seal your gilding at all. Now, if you were using real silver leaf, that might be a player to prevent tarnishing. Laying a piece of paper over the gilding might save the gold, though. I usually calligraph, then gild, then paint... in that order, so I rarely have the problem of worrying about messing up gilding in that manner. I look forward to seeing this piece of art on Saturday!! See ya at ValDay. KHvS =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 11:04:56 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: Flat gilding Greetings Siobhan! >I have more questions. Is two coats of gilding better than one? Yes, 2 coats of gold are better. I sometimes use 3. Gold leaf is extremely thin. A couple of layers will cover better and be less likely to rub off with friction. >How about burnishing flat gilding? Is it done? Do you burnish >directly on the gold, or through a cover sheet? Don't burnish directly on the gold. Use the 'stamp packet' cover sheet (glassine) you used to apply the gold leaf as a protective cover to burnish through. Since the garlic juice (or other flat-gilding mordants) stays slightly tacky, it will move under the pressure of the burnisher and cause cracks & scratches in the gold surface. The cover sheet helps prevent this. You should only burnish directly on the gold when it is applied over raised gesso. >How about any sealant over the gilded areas, do any of you spray >anything over your gold to keep it in place? I don't seal the gilded areas. Gold does not tarnish and I would be concerned that the sealant would affect the beautiful shiny finished I worked so hard to achieve by burnishing. >I also have not calliged the scroll yet. I intend on covering the >gilded area with a protective sheet, will I really need to do this >to keep the gilded areas from rubbing off onto my hands? Yes, I would protect the gilded areas. You don't want to risk chipping or scratching the gold and you need to protect the paper from the oils on your hands anyway. (Unless, of course, you're using vellum. Oil is less of a concern for vellum.) >In some areas the gold I applied was bigger than the area I applied >the mordant, so I folded over the gold and pressed it as a "second >layer" over the first. Is this ok to do, or do I need to apply more >mordant between coats of gilding? Yes, just fold the gold over on itself & burnish. Or, add a second layer, right on top of the first. You don't need to apply more mordant between layers. The gold is soft enough that the pressure of burnishing 'melts' the two layers together. Ellen of the Scholars Baile na Scolairi Middle Kingdom =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:37:09 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: making shell gold [was Re: Black Manuscripts] In a message dated 2/7/01 6:02:14 PM, uncial@ix.netcom.com writes: >Although this technique is wasteful of the labour of making the leaf, the >gold itself is not wasted. Those bits are carefully brushed into a suitable >container and later washed, ground and made into shell gold. I haven't >learned the exact process yet, but I have a nice little glass jar full of >these sweepings. In a mortar- Mix the gold flakes with some table salt and honey. Grind well with a pestle. It gets really fine and I've never needed to mull this like most other pigments. The gold mixture will look a bit like mustard. Add a good bit of distilled water and pour into a clear jar or test tube. When all of the gold has settled, remove most of the water with a dropper. Add more clean water, shake and repeat. Do this several times then taste the water. If it is not salty or sweet, you are done grinding the gold pigment. Draw off most of the water and pour the gold sludge into a shell. Mix it with a few drops of gum arabic and let it dry. Store it until you want to use it. >I also have a retrieval jar for shell gold. It's filled >with distilled water, and I use it when I absolutely must rinse my brush. I do this with shell gold and real lapis ultramarine. Both are reusable when you salvage the pigment and add more binder. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:39:23 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Greetings Siobhan, > Ok, I've used garlic mordant and applied my gold. Not all of it is > sticking, so I'm redoing where I need to. I understand this :-) Did you add anything to the garlic juice or use it straight? I was taught to use a little white lead and bole in it. > > I have more questions. Is two coats of gilding better than one? Always. Three or four are even better, especially if you plan to tool it, but let's not go crazy! > > How about burnishing flat gilding? Is it done? Do you burnish > directly on the gold, or through a cover sheet? I have the little > packet that stamps come in when you get them from the Postal Orifice > and it was working nicely as a cover sheet when I was applying the > gold last night. Except on gesso, always burnish through glassine. The less layers of gold you use, the more important the glassine is. You can buy it in big sheets from art supply shops, Paper & Ink Books, John Neal Bookseller, and others. A huge sheet is very cheap. Also, this will be thinner and better than what the Post Office provides. > > How about any sealant over the gilded areas, do any of you spray > anything over your gold to keep it in place? Dragon's Blood mixed with a little gum arabic will seal and give a more reddish tone, but this isn't necessary. Just hope that the recipient of the scroll knows to keep his/her fingers off the gold, and to frame it under glass or store it flat in a folder (which you might consider providing with it). Cover it with glassine in the folder to prevent gold transferring to the folder if the adhesive deeps through. > > I also have not calliged the scroll yet. I intend on covering the > gilded area with a protective sheet, will I really need to do this > to keep the gilded areas from rubbing off onto my hands? You mean a hand guard while you're working? Yes. Use one all the time, gold or no gold. > > In some areas the gold I applied was bigger than the area I applied > the mordant, so I folded over the gold and pressed it as a "second > layer" over the first. Is this ok to do, or do I need to apply more > mordant between coats of gilding? Gold sticks to itself. Between coats of gilding you need no more mordant, though you might want to breathe on it for a little more moisture. Corinna TreeGirtSea > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:59:59 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: New scroll pictures Mahee, Off the top of my head, I think the major source I used on this was "Letters of Gold" which was a catalog produced for an exhibit that was here at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art. I think it was a traveling exhibit of some sort, but don't recall the details (it was about 2 years ago). I'll try to dig out the rest of the information on the catalog for you this evening when I get home. I can also scan the exemplars if you're interested. Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:04:14 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Siobhan, I missed this bit in my last post: > > I also have not calliged the scroll yet. I intend on covering the > gilded area with a protective sheet, will I really need to do this > to keep the gilded areas from rubbing off onto my hands? > You should always do the writing before the gilding, and painting after. Corinna =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:09:26 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding I have been following this thread with great interest. Flat gilding is something I really would like to learn to do. I have some questions so please bear with me since this is a style of gilding I have never tried or learned. Also, would someone be willing to teach this at Pennsic this year? I am the kind of person who learns far better "hands-on" than from just reading about things! Question #1: Garlic - why do you need a mordant when flat gilding? How exactly does garlic function in the process? Are those gilding kits that the Gabriel Guild sells at War specifically for flat gilding? They have garlic in them - you can sure smell it!! Question #2: Gum ammoniac - in what form does this come when you buy it? Is there any special preparation involved when you go to use it for flat gilding? Question #3: Do you use any kind of "colouring agent" in your preparation for gilding? What I mean by this is, in raised gesso gilding, I add Armenian Bole to the mixture to "warm" the gold colour when it is applied, since Bole is a reddish stuff known as "jeweler's clay". Would you add anything like that to your gum ammoniac mixture so that your gold turns out "warm" in tone? Siobhan, I really wish I could see your piece, but duty calls, I've gotta work Saturday (sigh). Any chance you could scan it and put it up on the web somewhere for us to see? I'd really like that! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:30:27 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding - --=====================_84506614==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Question #1: Garlic - why do you need a mordant when flat gilding? How >exactly does garlic function in the process? Are those gilding kits that the >Gabriel Guild sells at War specifically for flat gilding? They have garlic >in them - you can sure smell it!! Garlic as a mordant means it is your binder. That is what holds the gold on the paper. >Question #2: Gum ammoniac - in what form does this come when you buy it? I have bought it in crystal, powder and liquid form. It's tree sap. If you buy it in crystal form, you have to (shortened form) boil it in water until it's part of the water then let it sit for a couple of days while excess water evaporates and finally strain it to get out the impurities. If you buy it in powder form, mix it with hot water until it dissolves (making sure you have enough but not too much). If you buy it in liquid form, most often you can use it straight from the bottle. >Is there any special preparation involved when you go to use it for flat >gilding? nope. As I said earlier to Siobhan, and was backed up by M. Helen, I put several coats on where I wish to gild, waiting for it to dry between applications and before I gild. >Question #3: Do you use any kind of "colouring agent" in your preparation >for gilding? What I mean by this is, in raised gesso gilding, I add Armenian >Bole to the mixture to "warm" the gold colour when it is applied, since Bole >is a reddish stuff known as "jeweler's clay". Would you add anything like >that to your gum ammoniac mixture so that your gold turns out "warm" in >tone? I use just a touch of Armenian bole in my gum arabic when I flat gild with it. It reminds me where I have already laid binder. It can be a very easy process. Cu Drag, Despina - ---------- - ---------- Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. -- Mark Twain - ---------- - --=====================_84506614==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Question #1: Garlic - why do you need a mordant when flat gilding? How
exactly does garlic function in the process? Are those gilding kits that the
Gabriel Guild sells at War specifically for flat gilding? They have garlic
in them - you can sure smell it!!

Garlic as a mordant means it is your binder.  That is what holds the gold on the paper.

Question #2: Gum ammoniac - in what form does this come when you buy it?

I have bought it in crystal, powder and liquid form.  It's tree sap.  If you buy it in crystal form, you have to (shortened form) boil it in water until it's part of the water then let it sit for a couple of days while excess water evaporates and finally strain it to get out the impurities.  If you buy it in powder form, mix it with hot water until it dissolves (making sure you have enough but not too much).  If you buy it in liquid form, most often you can use it straight from the bottle.

Is there any special preparation involved when you go to use it for flat
gilding?

nope.  As I said earlier to Siobhan, and was backed up by M. Helen, I put several coats on where I wish to gild, waiting for it to dry between applications and before I gild.

Question #3: Do you use any kind of "colouring agent" in your preparation
for gilding? What I mean by this is, in raised gesso gilding, I add Armenian
Bole to the mixture to "warm" the gold colour when it is applied, since Bole
is a reddish stuff known as "jeweler's clay". Would you add anything like
that to your gum ammoniac mixture so that your gold turns out "warm" in
tone?

I use just a touch of Armenian bole in my gum arabic when I flat gild with it.  It reminds me where I have already laid binder.

It can be a very easy process.

Cu Drag,
Despina


Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. --
Mark Twain
 - --=====================_84506614==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:40:47 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding >Question #1: Garlic - why do you need a mordant when flat gilding? How >exactly does garlic function in the process? Are those gilding kits that the >Gabriel Guild sells at War specifically for flat gilding? They have garlic >in them - you can sure smell it!! >Garlic as a mordant means it is your binder. That is what holds the gold on the paper. OK, another series of questions, then: If garlic is your binder, then what function does gum ammoniac serve? How does garlic serve as a binder? (In other words, how do you apply it and it what form does it come?) >I use just a touch of Armenian bole in my gum arabic when I flat gild with it. It reminds me >where I have already laid binder. OK, more questions coming on here! Gum arabic - OK, now what function does that serve exactly? Is it a binder as well? How do you use it? Straight or do you mix it with something? How much Armenian Bole do you mix with it? Sorry I'm asking so many questions, but this is something that I have so longed to learn and lacking you folks to sit here in the house with me and show me, I've got to glean as much information as I can from the verbal descriptions you all are giving me. I think this would make an excellent class to teach either at a Collegium type of thing or at Pennsic! Any takers? You've got your first student right here!!! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:36:04 -0600 From: Cindy Baker Subject: [scribes]: Flat gilding Greetings, Saradwen. >Also, would someone be willing to teach this at Pennsic this year? I will be at Pennsic this year, although I am not scheduled to teach any official classes. I'll be camped with the Midlands - just north of the North Gate. Come on up & I'll be happy to show you whatever I can. >Question #1: Garlic - why do you need a mordant when flat gilding? Mordant is just the name for the various sizes/glues/etc. that are used in flat gilding. Garlic is one kind of mordant. You can either crush garlic bulbs & run them through a strainer or purchase the little bottles of garlic juice from the spice section at the grocery store. Some folks add bole, or white lead, or a combination, but you can also use it straight. Just paint it on. Wait until it's dry, then breathe on it to re-moisten right before you lay the gold. >Are those gilding kits that the >Gabriel Guild sells at War specifically for flat gilding? They have garlic >in them - you can sure smell it!! I'm not sure what's in the Gabriel Guild kits, but I think they have several kinds of gold ground, including garlic. >Question #2: Gum ammoniac - in what form does this come when you buy it? Is >there any special preparation involved when you go to use it for flat >gilding? Gum ammoniac usually comes in small 'tears.' Looks kind of like caramel corn. It is the solidified sap from an herb. Melt it in hot (not boiling) water - just enough to cover the bits. Strain it (usually several times as there are lots of twigs, dirt, sand etc.) Should be about the consistency of honey when you use it. Same general technique as garlic juice. Paint it on, let it dry, then breathe & gild. >Question #3: Do you use any kind of "colouring agent" in your preparation >for gilding? What I mean by this is, in raised gesso gilding, I add Armenian >Bole to the mixture to "warm" the gold colour when it is applied, since Bole >is a reddish stuff known as "jeweler's clay". Would you add anything like >that to your gum ammoniac mixture so that your gold turns out "warm" in >tone? Yes, you can add the same things to gum ammoniac or garlic juice. Small Advertisement - I'll be doing a class on gold leaf at the Known World Heraldic Symposium this June if anyone else is planning to attend. Best of luck, Ellen of the Scholars Middle Kingdom =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:51:28 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding - --=====================_85768368==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >If garlic is your binder, then what function does gum ammoniac serve? If you are using garlic as your binder, you are not using any gum arabic, and vica verce. >How does garlic serve as a binder? (In other words, how do you apply it >and it what form does it come?) Garlic juice is used as a binder. One uses the juice as one would any other liquid, apply with a paintbrush. It's better to strain your own garlic, rather than trying to cheat and get diced garlic in a jar and strain that (using the liquid as your garlic juice), as there are other things for preservation purposes in a jar of minced garlic. >OK, more questions coming on here! Gum arabic - OK, now what function does >that serve exactly? Is it a binder as well? How do you use it? Straight or >do you mix it with something? How much Armenian Bole do you mix with it? Yes, gum arabic is a binder - check your W&N paint tubes, it's there. You can use it straight as a liquid. W&N sell bottles of it that should last you a long time. As for how much Armenian bole I put in, I do it by sight. If it looks right, I have enough. Sorry not to be able to be more specific on that one. >I think this would make an excellent >class to teach either at a Collegium type of thing or at Pennsic! Any >takers? You've got your first student right here!!! Many classes at Pennsic cover the basics of flat gilding. Mistress Alicia has for the past 2 years taught a 5 day series of classes (one year on bar and ivy and last year on Celtic style) that take one from the beginning to the end of how to do things for a specific style of scroll. Each time, both flat and raised gilding have been covered. I know I have also seen flat gilding during other classes at Pennsic. Cu Drag, Despina - ---------- - ---------- Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. -- Mark Twain - ---------- - --=====================_85768368==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
If garlic is your binder, then what function does gum ammoniac serve?

If you are using garlic as your binder, you are not using any gum arabic, and vica verce. 

How does garlic serve as a binder? (In other words, how do you apply it and it what form does it come?)

Garlic juice is used as a binder. One uses the juice as one would any other liquid, apply with a paintbrush.  It's better to strain your own garlic, rather than trying to cheat and get diced garlic in a jar and strain that (using the liquid as your garlic juice), as there are other things for preservation purposes in a jar of minced garlic.

OK, more questions coming on here! Gum arabic - OK, now what function does
that serve exactly? Is it a binder as well? How do you use it? Straight or
do you mix it with something? How much Armenian Bole do you mix with it?

Yes, gum arabic is a binder - check your W&N paint tubes, it's there.  You can use it straight as a liquid.  W&N sell bottles of it that should last you a long time.

As for how much Armenian bole I put in, I do it by sight.  If it looks right, I have enough.  Sorry not to be able to be more specific on that one.

I think this would make an excellent
class to teach either at a Collegium type of thing or at Pennsic! Any
takers? <smile> You've got your first student right here!!!

Many classes at Pennsic cover the basics of flat gilding.  Mistress Alicia has for the past 2 years taught a 5 day series of classes (one year on bar and ivy and last year on Celtic style) that take one from the beginning to the end of how to do things for a specific style of scroll.  Each time, both flat and raised gilding have been covered.  I know I have also seen flat gilding during other classes at Pennsic.

Cu Drag,
Despina
Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. --
Mark Twain
 - --=====================_85768368==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:56:57 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Bell Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Manuscripts >Giles de Laval wrote: >I wrote to the >Osterreichische nationalbibliothek in Vienna where these manuscripts are >held asking about the dye used, and they very helpfully sent me a 10 page >reply-all in German (which I don't read). I can translate documents from German into English, if anyone is interested...although I'll be honest that my expertise is with scientific German. I haven't done as much with art terminology, but I have a few good technical dictionaries and a penpal in Germany that help me out *grin*... I have promised Meisterin Katarina that I would translate some pages for her from the Manessa Codex (I believe that's right, you can correct me if I'm wrong, Meisterin Katarina); however, when I have done some of that, I would be open to working on other translations. Also honest--since I work 40+hrs a week, it may take me some time to translate several pages... Just thought I'd put out the offer.... :) Hey, I just had a thought--if I were to do translations, maybe someone with more knowledge about webpages could post them for everyone here to benefit from? Flourishes, Bryan (mundane) =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:12:51 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding OK Saradwen, I'm going to try to answer (well, at least comment on) all your questions. Ellen and Despina have also given some really good responses for you. I haven't done much "flat" gilding (meaning in large areas), but have played just a little with garlic juice -- which I purchased from the Gabriel Guild at Pennsic this last year. It is sort of like flat gilding, but can be slightly raised if you "flow" it on. You can put it on with a nib, too. You can also write with gum ammoniac. And, yes, the Gabriel Guild does sell a flat gilding kit that has garlic and a couple other bases (mordants) in it. The garlic juice I bought from them last year is so strong that I have to keep it in two heavy duty baggies. I got one of their flat gilding kits and the garlic in that one is not nearly as strong smelling. They also sell liquid gum ammoniac, as well as the sap crystals. A word of caution... gum ammoniac is worse smelling than garlic juice when you open the jar or distill it yourself... but the smell dissipates quickly. Someone I know once said that when you distill your gum ammoniac, if it smells like it is 1,000 years old, it is just right. Personally, I don't like using Armenian Bole... it doesn't seem to want to totally dissolve for me, so I cheat and use tube gouache for my coloration. Garlic juice usually is not used as a binder... I suppose it could, but since gum arabic, egg white, or egg yolk is so readily available, why??? I think someone on the list said you can flat gild with gum arabic. I've not tried it, but I guess it does work... it is a binder and will get sticky when moistened with damp breath. This is why you don't gild after you paint, as the gum arabic binder in the paint will get sticky and your gold will stick in places you did not want it to stick. I hope this helps to clear things up a bit. KHvS =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:37:28 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Meisterin Katarina et al., > And, yes, the Gabriel Guild does sell a flat gilding > kit that has garlic and a couple other bases (mordants) in it. The garlic juice > I bought from them last year is so strong that I have to keep it in two heavy > duty baggies. I got one of their flat gilding kits and the garlic in that one > is not nearly as strong smelling. Ah, OK. I was in their booth at War and happened to pick up one of the gilding kits and although I absolutely LOVE the smell of garlic (talk about something that jump starts your appetite REALLY quickly, and they being so near the food court!), the smell nearly knocked me over! I kept thinking, gawd, if I buy one of these, where would I keep it to prevent it from making my entire Pennsic pavilion smell like a Jewish deli! > They also sell liquid gum ammoniac, as well > as the sap crystals. A word of caution... gum ammoniac is worse smelling than > garlic juice when you open the jar or distill it yourself... but the smell > dissipates quickly. Someone I know once said that when you distill your gum > ammoniac, if it smells like it is 1,000 years old, it is just right. Oh, so it's smelly, too, huh? I've heard that glair can be rather smelly, too, especially if it gets old! Yuck! The smell of rotten eggs - how unappetitising! > Personally, I don't like using Armenian Bole... it doesn't seem to want to > totally dissolve for me, so I cheat and use tube gouache for my coloration. Oh, Master Aidan Elfaedur from Cleftlands does the same thing, and it seems to work fine, for the most part! > Garlic juice usually is not used as a binder... I suppose it could, but since > gum arabic, egg white, or egg yolk is so readily available, why??? Oh, really? But didn't someone say that garlic juice could be really sticky? Well, if gum ammoniac or gum arabic or egg white or - hey, egg yolk? You can use that, too? At Pennsic a few years ago, Lord Peter the Goldsmith from Tree Girt Sea taught me to paint (using dry pigments) with a combination of egg yolk and water (as the binder), and we purposely left the stuff we painted out in the damp night air of Pennsic. What we'd worked on eventually ended up on a table underneath pots, pans and other kitchen utensils, so when we went to retrieve the stuff we'd painted the night before, we tested to see if it would smear despite being damp, and it didn't! So you can use egg yolk as a binder when flat gilding? Doesn't it become too brittle over time? Seems to be that I read somewhere that it was used in fresco painting or some such thing and rarely was used in illumination because of its tendency to grow brittle with age. > I think someone on the list said you can flat gild with gum arabic. I've not > tried it, but I guess it does work... it is a binder and will get sticky when > moistened with damp breath. This is why you don't gild after you paint, as the > gum arabic binder in the paint will get sticky and your gold will stick in > places you did not want it to stick. Oh, OK, well, that makes sense, then! > I hope this helps to clear things up a bit. Oh, yes, it does! Still, I think if I see it first hand, I'll grasp it a whole lot better! I'm ever the tactile learner anyway, so....................! Thanks tons for the information! Very sincerely appreciated! ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:52:08 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Saradwen: When I mentioned the different binders, I was referring mostly to painting... I don't think I have heard of anyone using egg yolk or glair for flat gilding -- but I could be wrong. Egg yolk mixed with your pigments will give you tempera, for the most part. It is not recommended for book illumination (although not totally unheard of), but was used on wood a lot. Your description of how it acted in the damp after drying is proof as to why it isn't used on a book page that must be flexible. Since I haven't had the luxury < ? > of smelling rotten glair yet, I can't say if it is worse than gum ammoniac... but, just think of the name... ammoniac -- ammonia... not the same smell, but both are equally "pungent." KHvS =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:39:30 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding Hi Saradwen, The only real difference between flat and raised gilding is than the base is thin so the gold isn't raised. It's suitable for backgrounds and such. Because it isn't on gesso, it doesn't reach that absolutely bright new-minted coin look of raised gold, but it can come close. > Question #1: Garlic - why do you need a mordant when flat gilding? How > exactly does garlic function in the process? Are those gilding kits that the > Gabriel Guild sells at War specifically for flat gilding? They have garlic > in them - you can sure smell it!! You need an adhesive of some sort, and garlic juice works. So, according to Paul Werner of WOID, do apple juice, medieval beer - almost anything sticky. Since most of my work is modern, I use PVA size or GAC-100. > > Question #2: Gum ammoniac - in what form does this come when you buy it? Is > there any special preparation involved when you go to use it for flat > gilding? Pendragon used to carry it, but they've closed. Paper & Ink Books might have it, so might John Neal. It comes in little crumbly bits resembling chopped cork, and needs to be soaked, then strained through fabric so a substance resembling library paste comes through the cloth. This is mixed with distilled (let's not argue about it again!) water and bole. > Question #3: Do you use any kind of "colouring agent" in your preparation > for gilding? What I mean by this is, in raised gesso gilding, I add Armenian > Bole to the mixture to "warm" the gold colour when it is applied, since Bole > is a reddish stuff known as "jeweler's clay". Would you add anything like > that to your gum ammoniac mixture so that your gold turns out "warm" in > tone? Yes, use colouring, for the same reasons you use it for raised gilding. If you find bole too gritty, try a similar red in powdered pigment or Hydrus watercolour. Corinna TreeGirtSea =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V5 #3 ***************************