From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V5 #2 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 05 : Number 002 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Black transfer [scribes]: SCA Film: In Service to the Dream Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts Re: [scribes]: Black transfer [scribes]: Greek looking hand Re: [scribes]: Greek looking hand Re: [scribes]: Greek looking hand Re: [scribes]: Black transfer Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts [scribes]: guilding-turkish [scribes]: Black manuscript examples [scribes]: New scroll pictures [scribes]: forthcoming book from Archetype [scribes]: Folio [scribes]: Re: Black Manuscripts Re: [scribes]: New scroll pictures [scribes]: Flat gilding Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding [scribes]: Re:Flat gilding ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 11:10:59 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: [scribes]: Black transfer Hello Charlotte, One technique for getting a drawing transferred to white paper is to use charcoal or graphite dust on the back of a drawing, then lay the drawing down onto the page to carry the final art, and then carefully retrace the lines with a stylus. The stylus pressure will press the powder onto the new page only where your stylus travels. This creates lines which would then be penciled fresh, cleaned up, and then the powder gets brushed or erased away. I don't see why this wouldn't also work on black parchment. The stylus can be a drypoint, a pencil, or a ball point pen. If your original drawing is in pencil, you might use pen to see the difference while you transfer. That will help you keep track of where you've been. RanthulfR Charlotte DuBose wrote: > > What an excellent opportunity to pop my most recent question! Having just > finished a project, I am ready to begin my newest one (well, actually I've > been putting this one off for a while...) > > My husband has requested a particular piece that he would like me to do for > him, and the original is on black vellum.... > > I got a wonderful piece of black vellum from Rick Cavasin...now what to do > with it? Generally when I am working on a scroll, I do a preliminary > drawing of the whole thing, (and then I cheat...) and then use my > handy-dandy light board to transfer the design from my prelim. drawing to > the actual piece of (parchement or whatever...I usually use something like > Bristol Board....).... > > Well guess what....Ya Just Can't Do This With Black Vellum....the lines just > won't show up.... (yes...I know...) > Seeing how much I draw and erase and draw and erase, what would be the best > way to go about getting my design onto my piece of vellum without ruining > it, going crazy, or blind(er) than I already am? Any tips or information > would be Greatly Appreciated...(This was a Christmas request....2 Christmas' > ago.) > > Also...a note on the gold leaf on Bristol....the piece I just finished I did > that on (and might I add it was also my FIRST attempt with real gold leaf) > and I have to say that it turned out nicely...) > > Thank you in Advance- > Miriel MacGregor > Meridies > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 07:26:29 -0800 From: "EHW" Subject: [scribes]: SCA Film: In Service to the Dream Greetings All! I went to a screening yesterday of "In Service to the Dream", a wonderful documentary on our favorite subject, the SCA. It was a warm and unforgettable experience. It caught so much of all the best parts of the SCA and for many, friends and family on film. I was laughing and crying throughout. It was filmed in Caid & Estrella and has been two years in the making. After MUCH toil Mythos Productions has produced a two hour movie that every chatelaine should have to show to newcomers and that many of us might consider sending home to our non-SCA family to explain just why the SCA has come to mean so much to all of us. These amazing film makers have given us a great gift in this film. You MUST find a way to see this great accomplishment! Some faces from our history (Flieg and others) as well as newer players are part of this Great Wonderful and entertaining film encapsulating so much of what we hold dear in the SCA. The battle scenes are extremely intense! The documentary follows SCA activities through crown tourneys, coronations, artistic endeavors, equestrian activities, tourneys, wars, the ideals of chivalry, fighting, children, just about everything that makes the SCA the place of these current middle ages that we love. You can see the trailer at: http://www.mythosproductions.com/ The web search is 'mythos productions' (two words) For those who want almost immediate gratification you can get your copy of the video at Estrella along with some other things. The poster is wonderful! Please pass this on to your Kingdom lists and all your friends! Estrella is in less than two wks and the film will be there! (I hear that you will be able to order it via the web site and also put your name in for an upcoming DVD!) All the best, Astridhr Selr Leifsdottir ercil@astrid.upland.ca.us =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:12:24 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts Hello Chartlotte, The simplest way I know to transfer a design to black is with a home-made transfer sheet. I don't know if it's period, but it works (at least on paper, I don't see why it wouldn't work on vellum.). Do not use Saral! It tends to leave a waxy residue that repels water-based paints. Use a piece of strong but very thin paper. Not tracing paper. because it's harder to see where you're working. Something more like graphics layout paper. Cover it with a heavy layer of white or light pastel or conte crayon. Not chalk, the pigment os too weak. Now, rub over the whole thing with a soft rag and either rubbing alcohol or rubber cement thinner. This will make it even and fairly dustless and anchor the colour to the paper. Test it - another coat of pastel may be needed. Give it a light spray of workable fixative. Reinforce the edges with tape and it will be usable for years. Do your final drawing on the thinnest possible paper to make transfer easier. Fasten your drawing securely in place on the vellum,. then slip the transfer sheet underneath. It will work like carbon paper. And here's a neat trick I learned long ago: Put a piece of tracing paper over the original drawing. This way, you can see exactly what you've already done so you don't miss bits. Also, if you need your original again for some reason, it will be undamaged and not have the lines distorted from drawing over. I had one design I re-used a dozen times this way. Corinna TreeGirtSea - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlotte DuBose" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 12:58 AM Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts > What an excellent opportunity to pop my most recent question! Having just > finished a project, I am ready to begin my newest one (well, actually I've > been putting this one off for a while...) > > My husband has requested a particular piece that he would like me to do for > him, and the original is on black vellum.... > > I got a wonderful piece of black vellum from Rick Cavasin...now what to do > with it? Generally when I am working on a scroll, I do a preliminary > drawing of the whole thing, (and then I cheat...) and then use my > handy-dandy light board to transfer the design from my prelim. drawing to > the actual piece of (parchement or whatever...I usually use something like > Bristol Board....).... > > Well guess what....Ya Just Can't Do This With Black Vellum....the lines just > won't show up.... (yes...I know...) > Seeing how much I draw and erase and draw and erase, what would be the best > way to go about getting my design onto my piece of vellum without ruining > it, going crazy, or blind(er) than I already am? Any tips or information > would be Greatly Appreciated...(This was a Christmas request....2 Christmas' > ago.) > > Also...a note on the gold leaf on Bristol....the piece I just finished I did > that on (and might I add it was also my FIRST attempt with real gold leaf) > and I have to say that it turned out nicely...) > > Thank you in Advance- > Miriel MacGregor > Meridies > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:12:51 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts Lady Una: I know there are some here who will differ on just what to use, but I was taught by Reggie Ezzel (I can never spell his name right ) to use Arches Cover Black and then spray it well with Blair Fixative (the stuff in black and olive drab green cans). You can then use regular pencil to draw on your design, lines, etc., and be able to erase without leaving a light spot. I have worked on this paper, and it is rather nice. Give it a try. Most art stores will carry it, but I don't recall seeing it at Hobby Lobby type stores. You will find at least one great example of a Black Book of Hours in "The Painted Page"... I think that is the name... it has a red cover, published not all that long ago. KHvS - ----- Original Message ----- > I would love to start to do some scrolls that are done on black background, > but I don't want to go get black vellum to do this on. What have people > found to be the best way to go about this? I was thinking of just using > permanent black ink and making my water color all black, but I'm not sure if > this is the best way or not. Also, what are some good places to look for > resources for scrolls done on black. > > --Lady Una nic Daffydd of AEthelmarc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:54:46 -0000 From: "Russell mahee of acre" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black transfer It does work! I have transfered using graphite onto blue as well as black. the graphite is shiny, so it is seeable. your servant, mahee Hello Charlotte, One technique for getting a drawing transferred to white paper is to use charcoal or graphite dust on the back of a drawing, then lay the drawing down onto the page to carry the final art, and then carefully retrace the lines with a stylus. The stylus pressure will press the powder onto the new page only where your stylus travels. This creates lines which would then be penciled fresh, cleaned up, and then the powder gets brushed or erased away. I don't see why this wouldn't also work on black parchment. The stylus can be a drypoint, a pencil, or a ball point pen. If your original drawing is in pencil, you might use pen to see the difference while you transfer. That will help you keep track of where you've been. RanthulfR Charlotte DuBose wrote: > > What an excellent opportunity to pop my most recent question! Having just > finished a project, I am ready to begin my newest one (well, actually I've > been putting this one off for a while...) > > My husband has requested a particular piece that he would like me to do for > him, and the original is on black vellum.... > > I got a wonderful piece of black vellum from Rick Cavasin...now what to do > with it? Generally when I am working on a scroll, I do a preliminary > drawing of the whole thing, (and then I cheat...) and then use my > handy-dandy light board to transfer the design from my prelim. drawing to > the actual piece of (parchement or whatever...I usually use something like > Bristol Board....).... > > Well guess what....Ya Just Can't Do This With Black Vellum....the lines just > won't show up.... (yes...I know...) > Seeing how much I draw and erase and draw and erase, what would be the best > way to go about getting my design onto my piece of vellum without ruining > it, going crazy, or blind(er) than I already am? Any tips or information > would be Greatly Appreciated...(This was a Christmas request....2 Christmas' > ago.) > > Also...a note on the gold leaf on Bristol....the piece I just finished I did > that on (and might I add it was also my FIRST attempt with real gold leaf) > and I have to say that it turned out nicely...) > > Thank you in Advance- > Miriel MacGregor > Meridies > > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:01:36 -0500 From: June Lathrop Subject: [scribes]: Greek looking hand Wonder if any of you can help, am doing a scroll for someone with a Greek persona...are there any english greek-looking hands avaiable? Juliana Rusted Woodlands, East =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:11:52 EST From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Greek looking hand In a message dated 2/5/01 6:03:18 PM, Juliana (juliana@bellatlantic.net) writes: << Wonder if any of you can help, am doing a scroll for someone with a Greek persona...are there any english greek-looking hands avaiable?>> Why not use uncial? Luighseach =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:45:41 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Greek looking hand Juliana: I've done pseudo-Cyrillic that was English made to look like it. Cyrillic can be either Russian or Greek... you just need to find the right Byzantine piece to use as an example. Do you have some books with Byzantine scrolls in them? That would be the best place to start looking. I have one poor example of what I thought was a Russian page when I did it, but have since learned it was actually Byzantine. I thought I had put it up on my web site, but it turns out I didn't. I will send you a copy of it privately so you can see what I am talking about -- since we can't send attachments to this list. KHvS - ----- Original Message ----- > Wonder if any of you can help, am doing a scroll for someone with a > Greek persona...are there any english greek-looking hands avaiable? > Juliana > Rusted Woodlands, East =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:51:09 -0600 From: "Charlotte DuBose" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Black transfer I just want to say thank you to everyone who has offered their advice; I will let you know what I decide to try and how it turns out. What my husband has requested is a replica of an absolutely beautiful piece that can be found in "Painted Prayers - The Book of Hours in medieval and Renaissance Art" by Roger S. Wieck...page 83... I have a friend who has used a stylus; I may talk to him and get his opinion, too. Once again, thank you, to everyone...I will let you know how it turns out. YIS, Miriel =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:20:18 +1100 From: Steve Roylance Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts hi I did this piece on black card and white gouache in the pen and some going over of the letters with a 10/0 brush with more paint to ensure the colour depth. I drew the lines for the writing with a .3mm drafting pencil with a soft lead and rubbed it out afterwards. link with very big image http://www.corplink.com.au/~roylance/royalshow99.jpg as ever Thorfinn Lochac West Melbourne Australia "Stear, Kelly" wrote: > > I would love to start to do some scrolls that are done on black background, > but I don't want to go get black vellum to do this on. What have people > found to be the best way to go about this? I was thinking of just using > permanent black ink and making my water color all black, but I'm not sure if > this is the best way or not. Also, what are some good places to look for > resources for scrolls done on black. > > --Lady Una nic Daffydd of AEthelmarc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:39:29 -0000 From: "Russell mahee of acre" Subject: [scribes]: guilding-turkish Although the word tezhip literally means "gilding" it refers equally to manuscript decoration in various different colours. Gold paint was prepared by the laborious process of grinding gold leaf with gum arabic, then straining off the gold powder and adding a solution of gelatine according to a specific formula. The suspension thus obtained was applied to the paper with special brushes. But before the stage of applying gold or other colours could commence, the illuminator had to drew the designs, which had to complement the type of script, its scale, and even the contents of the text. source: http://www.lesartsturcs.com/calligraphy/ a lot mosre good stuff to read there as well. your servant, mahee _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:01:12 +0100 From: "Hedwig Riebe" Subject: [scribes]: Black manuscript examples Hi everybody, here's a link to my web page with several examples of black manuscripts (and one of my own ;-). Oriane http://members.tripod.de/oriane/black/blackaoa.htm _______________________________________________________________________________ Alles unter einem Dach: Informationen, Fun, E-Mails. Bei WEB.DE: http://web.de Die große Welt der Kommunikation: E-Mail, Fax, SMS, WAP: http://freemail.web.de =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:06:56 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: [scribes]: New scroll pictures Okay, I finally got the Laurel scroll I did back in November fixed (you'll recall I screwed up the arms). I've posted pictures of the finished product on my website. Take a look if you're in the mood. Warning to Johannes - this uses a pseudo-script :-) http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/nonprofitblvd/tetchubah/jamalscroll.html Tetchubah of Greenlake =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:51:15 EST From: SNSpies@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: forthcoming book from Archetype One of the forthcoming books from Archetype Books may be of interest to members of this list. "The Art of All Colours: Medieval Recipes for Artists and Illuminators" by Mark Clarke. To receive information about this book and/or to receive their monthly newsletter, including details of new Archetype titles and recent additions to their catalogue, email them at info@archetype.co.uk and ask to be added to their enews list. Nancy Mistress Ingvild =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 00:29:16 EST From: KMcWhyte@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Folio Hey everyone. I finally managed to upload copies of the scrolls I've done to-date, with the help of the cable modem upstairs (normal mode kept cutting my link). There's anecdotes on each piece. Feel free to peruse the site. http://nazrynn.8m.com/scribal_folio.html WORD TO THE WISE: Unless you have a cable modem, don't click on the thumbnails. Please be patient, there's 7 thumbs on this page. Yours, Kayleigh McWhyte, Mercenary Scribe (East) E.Frank, Long Island NY =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:49:04 +1100 From: Mark Calderwood Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Manuscripts I've been searching for information on black manuscripts for some years now, trying to work out theories and construction techniques before I tackle one myself. The vellum is definitely dyed, although I'm not sure with what, I suspect it varies. The dye used in the Black Hours of Charles the Rash (Bruges c1466-76) is acidic, and has caused extensive damage to the vellum; the folios of this book are now preserved between sheets of glass. The dye is also a brown-black, rather than a "true" black, but that could be the result of aging and damage. The black hours of Mary of Burgundy (Flanders c1477) seem to be dyed with a similar dye, although slightly better preserved. I wrote to the Osterreichische nationalbibliothek in Vienna where these manuscripts are held asking about the dye used, and they very helpfully sent me a 10 page reply-all in German (which I don't read). Several pages have panels of black vellum surrounded by the natural vellum border-from a conversation last year with Janet Backhouse (who has seen the manuscript) I understand these panels were written separately on black vellum, then pasted onto the page. By contrast the black hours in the Pierpont Morgan library (Bruges c1470, MS M.493-Painted Prayers p83) is in excellent condition, the leaves are a deep, glossy blue-black and show no damage at all. I'm not sure whether this is due to a different dye or being preserved in different conditions-does anyone know any tanners they could ask about dyes? The black folios in the Mira Monumenta are another story-the leaves have been stained or painted black rather than dyed. I say this because the letters on these folios are white, rather than silver or gold as in the other manuscripts. These letters look like they had been reserved with some kind of masking fluid rather than written on later with white paint. I had been searching for evidence of masking fluid in period-thank you for the reference Elianora! As to technicalities, the text in these manuscripts looks to be gold and silver leaf rather than shell gold. Gilding over a diluted gesso written with a quill produces exactly this effect, and was used in several manuscripts and documents for metallic lettering around and after this date. It seems logical to assume this is the case here (if somewhat wasteful of gold). Shell gold seems to have used in the illumination only. Painting on a black background presents several challenges, and is not for the faint hearted! One needs a fair amount of artistic skill, and a lot of confidence. I've had some success transferring a design onto black paper using a soft (B) graphite pencil and tracing paper as a kind of transfer, which leaves a faint silvery-grey line. The trouble is you have to paint at an odd angle to the light to see this line. I did a small section of the design at a time to avoid smudging, and kept the tracing simple, I had to do the details freehand. Also, some colours can look quite different on a dark background, so bear that in mind, and if possible test on a spare piece of paper or vellum first. The experiments continue... Giles de Laval Lochac =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:19:57 -0000 From: "Russell mahee of acre" Subject: Re: [scribes]: New scroll pictures Tetchubah, Your piece is beautiful. Extremely well done. Your script is reasonalby close to the arabic language...well done. Your detailing outside your border is excellent, a perfect final touch. Personally, I would love to know your book source for it. Thank you again for the pleasure of seeing you work. your servant, mahee Okay, I finally got the Laurel scroll I did back in November fixed (you'll recall I screwed up the arms). I've posted pictures of the finished product on my website. Take a look if you're in the mood. Warning to Johannes - this uses a pseudo-script :-) http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/nonprofitblvd/tetchubah/jamalscroll.html Tetchubah of Greenlake _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:42:48 -0500 From: "Judith Kirk" Subject: [scribes]: Flat gilding Ok, I've used garlic mordant and applied my gold. Not all of it is sticking, so I'm redoing where I need to. I understand this :-) I have more questions. Is two coats of gilding better than one? How about burnishing flat gilding? Is it done? Do you burnish directly on the gold, or through a cover sheet? I have the little packet that stamps come in when you get them from the Postal Orifice and it was working nicely as a cover sheet when I was applying the gold last night. How about any sealant over the gilded areas, do any of you spray anything over your gold to keep it in place? I also have not calliged the scroll yet. I intend on covering the gilded area with a protective sheet, will I really need to do this to keep the gilded areas from rubbing off onto my hands? In some areas the gold I applied was bigger than the area I applied the mordant, so I folded over the gold and pressed it as a "second layer" over the first. Is this ok to do, or do I need to apply more mordant between coats of gilding? Siobhan =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 10:00:53 -0600 From: "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Flat gilding - --=====================_61132754==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Siobhan >I have more questions. Is two coats of gilding better than one? I usually do several layers (applications) of mordant (I use gum arabic), letting it dry between each new application, before I begin to flat gild. >How about burnishing flat gilding? Is it done? Do you burnish >directly on the gold, or through a cover sheet? I have the little >packet that stamps come in when you get them from the Postal Orifice >and it was working nicely as a cover sheet when I was applying the >gold last night. I burnish by rubbing a little with a piece of silk directly on the gold - everyone has their own way. Were I to use a burnisher, I would do it through a piece of glassine paper, as you were (the paper from the post office is glassine). >How about any sealant over the gilded areas, do any of you spray >anything over your gold to keep it in place? I never have sprayed them, as it has not yet become an issue. Any piece that I am doing with leaf, I include a note that says the person needs to get it into a frame as soon as possible, as the gold will come off if scratched. (I think - and hope - that this scares them into taking good care of it right off the bat.) The gold should stay in place well so long as it doesn't get touched excessively or scraped. >I also have not calliged the scroll yet. I intend on covering the >gilded area with a protective sheet, will I really need to do this >to keep the gilded areas from rubbing off onto my hands? Yes! Other than rubbing off onto your hands, it also upsets the mordant by warming it and making it tacky again. This can cause many problems. (Put your hand down and get a little gold piece here, a little piece of gold there; stuck by the mordant that was supposed to keep it where you wanted it). >In some areas the gold I applied was bigger than the area I applied >the mordant, so I folded over the gold and pressed it as a "second >layer" over the first. Is this ok to do, or do I need to apply more >mordant between coats of gilding? I do it *all the time*. It causes less waste of the gold and it gives a more complete coverage. Those pesky corners never really get filled in if one does not fold over the extra, I've found (especially in raised gilding). Before pressing it as a second layer you should breathe onto the surface again in order that the mordant under the first layer of gold is tacky. In this manner, you really are putting more where it needs to be and, often, evening out the look of the gold. I hope this helps.... Cu Drag, Despina - ---------- - ---------- Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. -- Mark Twain - ---------- - --=====================_61132754==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Siobhan

I have more questions. Is two coats of gilding better than one?

I usually do several layers (applications) of mordant (I use gum arabic), letting it dry between each new application, before I begin to flat gild.

How about burnishing flat gilding? Is it done? Do you burnish
directly on the gold, or through a cover sheet? I have the little
packet that stamps come in when you get them from the Postal Orifice
and it was working nicely as a cover sheet when I was applying the
gold last night.

I burnish by rubbing a little with a piece of silk directly on the gold - everyone has their own way.  Were I to use a burnisher, I would do it through a piece of glassine paper, as you were (the paper from the post office is glassine).

How about any sealant over the gilded areas, do any of you spray
anything over your gold to keep it in place?

I never have sprayed them, as it has not yet become an issue.  Any piece that I am doing with leaf, I include a note that says the person needs to get it into a frame as soon as possible, as the gold will come off if scratched.  (I think - and hope - that this scares them into taking good care of it right off the bat.) The gold should stay in place well so long as it doesn't get touched excessively or scraped.

I also have not calliged the scroll yet. I intend on covering the
gilded area with a protective sheet, will I really need to do this
to keep the gilded areas from rubbing off onto my hands?

Yes!  Other than rubbing off onto your hands, it also upsets the mordant by warming it and making it tacky again.  This can cause many problems.  (Put your hand down and get a little gold piece here, a little piece of gold there; stuck by the mordant that was supposed to keep it where you wanted it).

In some areas the gold I applied was bigger than the area I applied
the mordant, so I folded over the gold and pressed it as a "second
layer" over the first. Is this ok to do, or do I need to apply more
mordant between coats of gilding?

I do it *all the time*.  It causes less waste of the gold and it gives a more complete coverage.  Those pesky corners never really get filled in if one does not fold over the extra, I've found  (especially in raised gilding). Before pressing it as a second layer you should breathe onto the surface again in order that the mordant under the first layer of gold is tacky.  In this manner, you really are putting more where it needs to be and, often, evening out the look of the gold. 

I hope this helps....

Cu Drag,
Despina
Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty. --
Mark Twain
 - --=====================_61132754==_.ALT-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:24:10 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re:Flat gilding It sounds like you're on the right track. Be prepared for a different experience next time. Gilding always has some variable involved. >In some areas the gold I applied was bigger than the area I applied >the mordant, so I folded over the gold and pressed it as a "second >layer" over the first. Is this ok to do, or do I need to apply more >mordant between coats of gilding? I think I'd go batty trying to gild all of the little lines and filigree work I do if I couldn't do this. It makes things go a lot faster.... cuts down on cleanup and patching time. :-) The gold will stick to itself. Just breathe on it before you fold it over and press it into place. That little bit of moisture is key. If there isn't enough moisture between the layers of gold, the top ones will just flake off. Too much moisture though and you will end up softening the size underneath and it may come through the gold. The surface will become sticky briefly. Your cover sheet may stick to it. The gilding will dry with a dull finish that doesn't burnish off. It's not as tricky as it sounds. Knowing what can go wrong will keep you on the lookout for it. You can correct your technique before you get the whole scroll finished and wonder why it doesn't look right. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V5 #2 ***************************