From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V5 #1 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, February 5 2001 Volume 05 : Number 001 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Re: [scribes]: Illuminandi [scribes]: testing new majordomo [scribes]: M.Hroar's Ink Pots Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts [scribes]: letters of mark Re: [scribes]: letters of mark [scribes]: thank you Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board [scribes]: Simple but Spectacular Borders [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts RE: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts [scribes]: Gulf War [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:03:35 -0500 From: "Judith Kirk" Subject: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Maybe I'm having a stupid peer moment... It's cool to apply gold leaf to Bristol Board? Siobhan =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:22:32 -0500 From: "Helen Schultz" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Sure, why not, as long as you put down a gilding base first?? I've done it a thousand times . KHvS - ----- Original Message ----- > Maybe I'm having a stupid peer moment... > > It's cool to apply gold leaf to Bristol Board? > > Siobhan > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 22:39:37 -0500 From: Randy Asplund Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminandi No, actually that is not the same book. The Materials and Techniques... is a book written by Thompson. De Arte Illuminandi is an anonymous 14th c treatise, translated by Daniel Thompson and my copy was published in 1933 by Yale Univ. Press. RanthulfR "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" wrote: > > The Thompson translation of which RanthfuR is speaking is entitled, " > The Materials and Techniques of Medieval Painting", no ISBN number, > published by Dover through special arrangement with Allen and Unwin. > The copy that I have is printed 1956. > > Hope this helps you find it, > Despina > > At 05:37 PM 2/1/2001 -0500, Randy Asplund wrote: > > > You will probably have to search used book lists and in university > > libraries for De Arte Illuminandi. I don't know of anybody with a > > current publication of it. The Thompson translation may be the best. > > I > > think that was Yale Univ. Press. University of MI had it included as > > part of a larger book, and there are other authors who translated > > it. > > You can probably look it up in the bibliography of several of you > > books > > on C&I, such as Christopher De Hammel's Hist of Illum MSS. > > > > Best of luck to you in finding it! > > > > RanthulfR > > > > > > Master RanthulfR, > > > > > > Could you please tell me where I might find a copy of "De > > Arte > > > Illuminandi"? Gosh, I have seen more folks refer to this book on > > the list > > > that, well, I find that I really want a copy now! And thanks for > > the answer, > > > too! I begin to think that this "egg and dart" thing is purely an > > > architectural concept that the Ferrini people used to describe the > > "littera > > > florissa" stuff we see in MSS. It would seem that most collectors > > don't > > > really have the technical knowledge that we scribes do, from what > > I am > > > hearing, anyway, so I guess they used that term because they felt > > it was one > > > that most collectors might understand. > > > > > > Or at least that is the impression I am getting, anyway! > > > > > > Thanks again! > > > > > > ~Saradwen > > > > -- > > > > Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 > > Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration > > 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 > > > > See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts > > to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: > > http://www.provide.net/~randyaf > > =================================================================== > > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > > with a blank Subject: line and > > unsubscribe scribes > > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > > the body. - -- Randy Asplund (734) 663-0954 Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration 2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103 See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at: http://www.provide.net/~randyaf =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:48:03 -0800 (PST) From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: testing new majordomo Majordomo hasn't had a new release in years... until about a week ago. Looks like other sites were having the same virus problem. I've just installed the new version of Majordomo, and am testing now. We'll see if it actually helps. First step is to make sure it didn't break anything. nomad postmaster@castle.org =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 15:09:48 EST From: KATAKIRA@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: M.Hroar's Ink Pots Greetings, scribes... This is from Master Hroar, a ceramics laurel. He's made some super cute and useful paint/water pans lately, and now he's moving into ink pots...drop him a line if you have a minute at: freyja1@juno.com YOU NEED TO RESPOND TO HIM, NOT ME. thanks-- Katarina Peregrine <> =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:06:38 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Hello Judith, It's perfectly possible to apply gold leaf to bristol board - I've done it. Just what do you mean by "cool"? Corinna Chicago - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judith Kirk" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:03 AM Subject: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board > Maybe I'm having a stupid peer moment... > > It's cool to apply gold leaf to Bristol Board? > > Siobhan > =================================================================== > To unsubscribe from this list, send email to > with a blank Subject: line and > unsubscribe scribes > in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in > the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 19:56:35 -0400 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board WEll, one doesn't usually apply it directly.... sizing helps the gold to stick ;-) Actually, I have found that a few thin layers of glare or a layer of gloss or gesso-and-gloss or some combination thereof make a better surface than just the sizing. I did one scroll with just sizing as a ground behind bugs and flowers - one of the shiniest finishes I've achieved, but the grain of the paper shows through and gives an odd look to the surface, almost as if there were long, fine scratches in the gold. Enid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:38:22 -0400 From: wyverns Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts FYI for those interested in a little experimenting... Members of the family (okay, me too) recently bought jel pens, and of course the greatest effect is on black paper. Not only do they provide some nice black paper for the pens, some of the pen makers have been pushing the 'archival quality' of the inks (in contrast ot the water-based black inks that fade rapidly), and so they have produced acid free black paper to go with (and purple, and other colors). I haven't found any heavy weight paper, but what I have found seems to be a nice bond-equivelant with a good smooth writing surface and I plan on doing some experimenting with the 'black hours' styles of painting. (No, I won't use the gold jel pen for a scroll...Maybe for a quickie promisory, though--it wouldn't be any worse than the magic marker-colored xeroxes we sometimes hand out for last minute awards!) Enid nicEoin Atlantia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:21:09 EST From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts - --part1_dc.1d5f67f.27acef45_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen a latin black dyed manuscript, which made me curious if my book's reproduction had erred on a purple manuscript. When doing this type of work, do you lay down a gesso, then a black wash? Or would this fade the black wash out too much? Do you simply go through a black wash and continue with your gold work? Would this gold be mosaic gold and something like P.H. Martin's bronze powder/gold ink be the same? It's the type of thing I would like to try later, when I get more experience under my belt. The colored style was quite striking and the understated drawings very effective. Asa Hrafnasdottir Loch Ruadh - --part1_dc.1d5f67f.27acef45_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen a latin black dyed manuscript, which made me curious if my book's
reproduction had erred on a purple manuscript.  When doing this type of work,
do you lay down a gesso, then a black wash? Or would this fade the black wash
out too much?  Do you simply go through a black wash and continue with your
gold work?  Would this gold be mosaic gold and something like P.H. Martin's
bronze powder/gold ink be the same?  It's the type of thing I would like to
try later, when I get more experience under my belt.  The colored style was
quite striking and the understated drawings very effective.  

Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh - --part1_dc.1d5f67f.27acef45_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:41:18 -0600 From: "Corinna Taylor/Al Frank" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C08DC5.752979A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Asa-- I don't know the precise dying process, but the parchment/vellum = is actually dyed, not just painted. Black is not an error - it was = done, though purple was more common (a somewhat reddish purple). I have = seen one contemporary piece done on purple-dyed vellum. The scribe, = Reggie Ezell, wrote on it directly with shell gold loaded with a brush = into his pen (either a Rexel or a quill, I'm not sure which). Corinna TreeGirtSea ----- Original Message -----=20 From: HRAFNASDOT@aol.com=20 To: scribes@castle.org=20 Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts I have seen a latin black dyed manuscript, which made me curious if my = book's=20 reproduction had erred on a purple manuscript. When doing this type = of work,=20 do you lay down a gesso, then a black wash? Or would this fade the = black wash=20 out too much? Do you simply go through a black wash and continue with = your=20 gold work? Would this gold be mosaic gold and something like P.H. = Martin's=20 bronze powder/gold ink be the same? It's the type of thing I would = like to=20 try later, when I get more experience under my belt. The colored = style was=20 quite striking and the understated drawings very effective. =20 Asa Hrafnasdottir=20 Loch Ruadh=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C08DC5.752979A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Asa-- I don't know the precise dying = process, but=20 the parchment/vellum is actually dyed, not just painted.  Black is = not an=20 error - it was done, though purple was more common (a somewhat reddish=20 purple).  I have seen one contemporary piece done on purple-dyed=20 vellum.  The scribe, Reggie Ezell, wrote on it directly with shell = gold=20 loaded with a brush into his pen (either a Rexel or a quill, I'm not = sure=20 which).
 
Corinna
TreeGirtSea
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 HRAFNASDOT@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 = 11:21=20 PM
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Re: = Black Dyed=20 manuscripts

I have seen = a latin=20 black dyed manuscript, which made me curious if my book's =
reproduction had=20 erred on a purple manuscript.  When doing this type of work, =
do you=20 lay down a gesso, then a black wash? Or would this fade the black wash =
out=20 too much?  Do you simply go through a black wash and continue = with your=20
gold work?  Would this gold be mosaic gold and something like = P.H.=20 Martin's
bronze powder/gold ink be the same?  It's the type = of thing=20 I would like to
try later, when I get more experience under my = belt.=20  The colored style was
quite striking and the understated = drawings=20 very effective.  

Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh = - ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C08DC5.752979A0-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:40:47 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts I have done a couple pieces on colored backgrounds. Aengus & I did a 2 piece scroll with half of it being on cochineal dyed vellum. It was an Italian piece and some of the exemplars showed plain and dyed vellum on facing pages. Most of the examples have the whole page dyed, but not all of them. Some have just enough to make it match the facing page, on others the color is complete except for an undyed border around the page. The calligraphy on our piece was done on a full piece of dyed vellum in gilded gold. The small amount of illumination on that page was gilded designs between the top rows of calligraphy. The illuminated page was on the plain vellum with part of the background painted in a color to match the vellum. If we had dyed the vellum ourselves, I would have used the dye instead of paint. We have also done a 2 page scroll on black paper. Unfortunately we didn't have the time or money to buy black vellum so we used acid free, archival card stock from the scrapbook store. I'd guess it to be about 90# and it was black the whole way through, not just on one side. I probably would never have thought about using it except when I walked past the paper there was a piece that looked exactly like the cochineal vellum. It worked well .... although painting on top of a black background was a little strange. The black page is online at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2963/malcolm-gage.jpg If anyone is interested I can scan in a copy of the other scroll and post it too. A side note about gel pens. - I don't use them so I was unaware until another scribe pointed out recently that over time the inks will break down and crack apart. Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 19:55:26 -0900 From: gmwdcare@v-mmp.gci.net Subject: [scribes]: letters of mark Greetings, I have been asked to find wording for letters of mark to give to merchants visiting our barony. Does any one have any idea where to start or even what it should say? My Baroness wishes it to be in period style (any period!). Would be greatful for any help. My Thanks, Gwyneth Rhiannon of the Sea =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 01:53:42 -0400 From: "Rick Gaigneur" Subject: Re: [scribes]: letters of mark Greetings, all! Gwymeth wrote: > I have been asked to find wording for letters of mark to give to > merchants visiting our barony. Does any one have any idea where to > start or even what it should say? Try: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/5213/index.htm Lots of information to be found there, including an "Examples" page (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/5213/marque2.htm) with seven period letters, dating back as early as 1205. Aetheric Master Aetheric Lindeberende (Rick Gaigneur) Shire of Lyndhaven, East Kingdom gaigneur@fundy.net =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 21:19:20 -0900 From: gmwdcare@v-mmp.gci.net Subject: [scribes]: thank you Greetings and Thanks, i appreciate the help with the letters of mark that people sent me. It was exactly what I needed. Thank you. Gwyneth =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 10:49:10 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board > Maybe I'm having a stupid peer moment... > > It's cool to apply gold leaf to Bristol Board? Flat gilding or raised gesso gilding? I don't know why it would not work, so long as you use some kind of sizing to keep the gold on the page. Is Bristol Board your preferred paper to use for scrolls? I use Arches 140# hot press myself and it works fine on that. No reason that Bristol should be any different except for perhaps a different paper sizing, but aside from that, I don't see any reason why it *wouldn't* work. Just out of curiosity, what are you working on? ~Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:24:35 -0500 From: "Judy/Siobhan" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board Thanks to all who responded to my questions. Yes, I will be using sizing :-) I am working on an awards scroll for ValDay next weekend and wanted to try something new.. Siobhan - -----Original Message----- From: wyverns To: scribes@castle.org Date: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [scribes]: Gold leaf on Bristol Board >WEll, one doesn't usually apply it directly.... sizing helps the gold >to stick ;-) > >Actually, I have found that a few thin layers of glare or a layer of >gloss or gesso-and-gloss or some combination thereof make a better >surface than just the sizing. I did one scroll with just sizing as a >ground behind bugs and flowers - one of the shiniest finishes I've >achieved, but the grain of the paper shows through and gives an odd look >to the surface, almost as if there were long, fine scratches in the >gold. > >Enid >=================================================================== >To unsubscribe from this list, send email to >with a blank Subject: line and >unsubscribe scribes >in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in >the body. > =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:17:31 +1100 From: Christine Robertson Subject: [scribes]: Simple but Spectacular Borders Dear Folks, While working on a commissioned piece this weekend, I ended up with several nice but simple borders from the Visconti Hours. All look very speccy, but none are particularly hard to do -- essentially paint-by-numbers. So I put them up on a web page for downloading by anyone who would like to -- I thought they'd be useful for quick scrolls or as teaching aids. The URL is http://goldgryph.virtualave.net/teaching/visconti_borders.htm Enjoy. - --Yseult de Lacy, OL - ---------------------------------------------------------- Griffon Consulting: Web Pages and More 34 Shortland St Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 1782 Phone 61 02 4757 4697 Fax 61 02 4757 1674 http://griffon-consulting.hypermart.net =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 00:58:26 -0600 From: "Charlotte DuBose" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts What an excellent opportunity to pop my most recent question! Having just finished a project, I am ready to begin my newest one (well, actually I've been putting this one off for a while...) My husband has requested a particular piece that he would like me to do for him, and the original is on black vellum.... I got a wonderful piece of black vellum from Rick Cavasin...now what to do with it? Generally when I am working on a scroll, I do a preliminary drawing of the whole thing, (and then I cheat...) and then use my handy-dandy light board to transfer the design from my prelim. drawing to the actual piece of (parchement or whatever...I usually use something like Bristol Board....).... Well guess what....Ya Just Can't Do This With Black Vellum....the lines just won't show up.... (yes...I know...) Seeing how much I draw and erase and draw and erase, what would be the best way to go about getting my design onto my piece of vellum without ruining it, going crazy, or blind(er) than I already am? Any tips or information would be Greatly Appreciated...(This was a Christmas request....2 Christmas' ago.) Also...a note on the gold leaf on Bristol....the piece I just finished I did that on (and might I add it was also my FIRST attempt with real gold leaf) and I have to say that it turned out nicely...) Thank you in Advance- Miriel MacGregor Meridies =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 09:35:39 EST From: RenScribe@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts In a message dated 2/5/01 8:09:50 AM, miriel@midsouth.rr.com writes: >I got a wonderful piece of black vellum from Rick Cavasin...now what to do >with it? Generally when I am working on a scroll, I do a preliminary >drawing of the whole thing, (and then I cheat...) and then use my >handy-dandy light board to transfer the design from my prelim. drawing to >the actual piece of (parchement or whatever...I usually use something like >Bristol Board....).... > >Well guess what....Ya Just Can't Do This With Black Vellum....the lines >just won't show up.... (yes...I know...) >Seeing how much I draw and erase and draw and erase, what would be the best >way to go about getting my design onto my piece of vellum without ruining >it, going crazy, or blind(er) than I already am? Any tips or information >would be Greatly Appreciated... I do my scrolls pretty much the same way as you do, so I had the same problems working on colored backgrounds. I tried a couple of things that didn't work: The "usual" way with regular pencil - It was hard, but not impossible to trace on a lightbox, but the light had to be a lot brighter. You can kind of see pencil on a dark background if the light hits it the right way ... but this was more trouble than it was worth. So then I tried going over the pencil with white chalk pencil - the kind you use for sewing. It got me through one piece, but the chalk kept wearing off. I ended up redrawing it several times before I finished the piece. The next piece I did, I used dressmaker's carbon paper. I just traced my layout the same way as I would if I were using regular carbon paper to make a copy of something. The white outlines stayed until I was done with the scroll and then I just used my eraser to clean up anywhere the lines still showed. I still used the chalk pencil for the calligraphy lines. The pencil will sharpen to a fine point and you can still use a lettering guide. With the dressmaker's carbon it was hard to see what I was doing and the pressure of the lettering guide going back and forth was enough to release the white off the carbon paper. It made too many smudges for me to see the lines clearly. Hope this helps.....Best of luck :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:08:03 -0500 From: "Stear, Kelly" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts I would love to start to do some scrolls that are done on black background, but I don't want to go get black vellum to do this on. What have people found to be the best way to go about this? I was thinking of just using permanent black ink and making my water color all black, but I'm not sure if this is the best way or not. Also, what are some good places to look for resources for scrolls done on black. - --Lady Una nic Daffydd of AEthelmarc - -----Original Message----- From: RenScribe@aol.com [mailto:RenScribe@aol.com] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:36 AM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts In a message dated 2/5/01 8:09:50 AM, miriel@midsouth.rr.com writes: >I got a wonderful piece of black vellum from Rick Cavasin...now what to do >with it? Generally when I am working on a scroll, I do a preliminary >drawing of the whole thing, (and then I cheat...) and then use my >handy-dandy light board to transfer the design from my prelim. drawing to >the actual piece of (parchement or whatever...I usually use something like >Bristol Board....).... > >Well guess what....Ya Just Can't Do This With Black Vellum....the lines >just won't show up.... (yes...I know...) >Seeing how much I draw and erase and draw and erase, what would be the best >way to go about getting my design onto my piece of vellum without ruining >it, going crazy, or blind(er) than I already am? Any tips or information >would be Greatly Appreciated... I do my scrolls pretty much the same way as you do, so I had the same problems working on colored backgrounds. I tried a couple of things that didn't work: The "usual" way with regular pencil - It was hard, but not impossible to trace on a lightbox, but the light had to be a lot brighter. You can kind of see pencil on a dark background if the light hits it the right way ... but this was more trouble than it was worth. So then I tried going over the pencil with white chalk pencil - the kind you use for sewing. It got me through one piece, but the chalk kept wearing off. I ended up redrawing it several times before I finished the piece. The next piece I did, I used dressmaker's carbon paper. I just traced my layout the same way as I would if I were using regular carbon paper to make a copy of something. The white outlines stayed until I was done with the scroll and then I just used my eraser to clean up anywhere the lines still showed. I still used the chalk pencil for the calligraphy lines. The pencil will sharpen to a fine point and you can still use a lettering guide. With the dressmaker's carbon it was hard to see what I was doing and the pressure of the lettering guide going back and forth was enough to release the white off the carbon paper. It made too many smudges for me to see the lines clearly. Hope this helps.....Best of luck :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:12:33 -0500 From: "Stear, Kelly" Subject: [scribes]: Gulf War This will be the first year that I will be going to Gulf War and I was wondering about how the scribal arts go down there. I'm guessing that it is similar to Pennsic, but I just wanted to know what others have experienced. I was thinking of trying to do a piece to enter into any A & S exhibits, but I wanted to know what I would be getting into first (is it more difficult than Pennsic, etc). :-) Thanks! - --Lady Una nic Daffydd of AEthelmarc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:16:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth Blatt Subject: [scribes]: Re: Black Dyed manuscripts - --============_-1230736296==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:35 AM -0500 2/5/01, RenScribe@aol.com wrote: > I >still used the chalk pencil for the calligraphy lines. The pencil will >sharpen to a fine point and you can still use a lettering guide. With the >dressmaker's carbon it was hard to see what I was doing and the pressure of >the lettering guide going back and forth was enough to release the white off >the carbon paper. It made too many smudges for me to see the lines clearly. Maybe another possibility along these lines is to make the rulings for calligraphy part of the overall design of the scroll. Rulings were viewed as having decorative, as well as practical, qualities for several centuries in period. Red was a popular choice, but in direct relation to black-page manuscripts, gold and silver were also used. You can see a black text-block folio from the _Hours of Mary of Burgundy_ online at http://www.nd.edu/~medvllib/laypi/marybur/14v15r.html which shows the rulings (faintly, as the resolution isn't good and the text block is worn); on some folios, they were in gold, on others I believe they were either in silver or white. The _Hours of Mary of Burgundy_ are also neat in that they show black - -text blocks- as opposed to black -pages-; the text blocks are painted black, with their text either in gold or silver written atop the black (as opposed to the use of some masking fluid later removed). And, speaking of masking fluid, here's a late-period recipe for such; it's from Giovanni Porta's _Natural Magic_, which was printed in the 1580s; there is an online edition of his 1584 text at http://tscnet.com/pages/omard1/jportat2.html from which the following is quoted: That upon black paper, white letters may appear. The reason is this. Mingle the white and yolk of an Egg together, that it may be liquid as ink. With this Liquor, write on the paper what words you please, and dry them. When the paper is dry, make a black color over it, and dry it again, and send it. But that the letters may be visible, scrape the superficies of the paper with a broad Iron. For so it will be, that the ink being scraped off, where the letters were, they will appear white. Elianora Mathewes Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, AE - --============_-1230736296==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: Black Dyed manuscripts
At 9:35 AM -0500 2/5/01, RenScribe@aol.com wrote:
 I
still used the chalk pencil for the calligraphy lines.  The pencil will
sharpen to a fine point and you can still use a lettering guide. With the
dressmaker's carbon it was hard to see what I was doing and the pressure of
the lettering guide going back and forth was enough to release the white off
the carbon paper. It made too many smudges for me to see the lines clearly.

Maybe another possibility along these lines is to make the rulings for calligraphy part of the overall design of the scroll.  Rulings were viewed as having decorative, as well as practical, qualities for several centuries in period.  Red was a popular choice, but in direct relation to black-page manuscripts, gold and silver were also used.

You can see a black text-block folio from the _Hours of Mary of Burgundy_ online at http://www.nd.edu/~medvllib/laypi/marybur/14v15r.html which shows the rulings (faintly, as the resolution isn't good and the text block is worn); on some folios, they were in gold, on others I believe they were either in silver or white.

The _Hours of Mary of Burgundy_ are also neat in that they show black -text blocks- as opposed to black -pages-; the text blocks are painted black, with their text either in gold or silver written atop the black (as opposed to the use of some masking fluid later removed).

And, speaking of masking fluid, here's a late-period recipe for such; it's from Giovanni Porta's _Natural Magic_, which was printed in the 1580s; there is an online edition of his 1584 text at http://tscnet.com/pages/omard1/jportat2.html from which the following is quoted:

That upon black paper, white letters may appear.

The reason is this.  Mingle the white and yolk of an Egg together, that it may be liquid as ink.  With this Liquor, write on the paper what words you please, and dry them.  When the paper is dry, make a black color over it, and dry it again, and send it.  But that the letters may be visible, scrape the superficies of the paper with a broad Iron.  For so it will be, that the ink being scraped off, where the letters were, they will appear white.

Elianora Mathewes
Dominion of Myrkfaelinn, AE
- --============_-1230736296==_ma============-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V5 #1 ***************************