From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V4 #43 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Thursday, November 2 2000 Volume 04 : Number 043 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Re: Libraries-who needs'em? - Holly, re: Johannes, re: et al. RE: [scribes]: Supplies (was: Newbie) [scribes]: Re: Pergamenata (was:Supplies ) Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:31:10 -0800 From: "MThomson" Subject: [scribes]: Re: Libraries-who needs'em? - Holly, re: Johannes, re: et al. I'd like to encourage, rather than discourage, folk to gather together a nice paper bound library of illumination and period works - as from the look of things electronic books are the wave of the future - and eventually we may find that getting copies of even reprints of some of these books may soon get out of financial reach. Case in point, 8 years ago I was offered a copy of Maxime du Camp's Histoire d'Egypt in an original numbered first folio written in 1819, with fold-outs of original drawings, for the sum of $1500 from Pightons Rare Books. This is a printed 22 by 32 odd size hard covered private press book of about 200 pages with illustrations of Egyptian monuments as they looked during the French Expedition when du Camp was there with Napoleon in the late 1790's. I couldn't afford it at the time but the owner was nice enough to let me read and take notes and hand drawn copies of it's copied inscriptions from it for the 4 weeks it sat in his business while waiting to go to auction. I tried to raise the money, but it was too close to the end of the year holidays and sadly I had to let it go. It later sold at auction for $5500. Today it goes for four times that, if you can find a copy. There have been more than a few times over the years that I wished I had that book just to refer to - as many of those monuments no longer exist in the pristine state they were in in the 1790's. Some are gone completely. Granted that most of us can't afford to buy first edition folio's of anything, still I think I would have given my gold inlays today if offered it again at $1500 - because it is a beautiful work done by people who loved what they were doing. The moral of this is - if you find a good book out there - and you can afford it - and it inspires you - go for it - you may not find it again, and at a price you can afford. Alt Andreas von Sohren, PCS Baron Jaegersberg, CAID sent by Sonicnetmail __________________________________________ Go Postal! Get free email from http://www.sonicnetmail.com Music + Free Email = Double Happiness =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 06:58:21 -0600 From: "Alex Wollangk" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Supplies (was: Newbie) > I'd like to try real vellum someday and I would also like > to try this stuff I've heard about called "Pergamenata", that I hear is very > close in feel to real vellum! I think you can get that from some of the > specialty art store places and maybe someday, I'll get a hold of some and > try it out! Try Paper & Ink Books (http://www.paperinkbooks.com) They have both real vellum and Pergamenata. Their FREE catalog always makes me get all gooshy inside and is one reason I need to find a job that pays me well... :) They also have 2 1/2 pages (at least in the 1999 catalog) on books about Illuminated Manuscripts, though their main emphasis is on modern calligraphy. In 1999 their heavyweight pergamenata is listed as $3.75 per 27" x 39" sheet. Their "Manuscript Vellum" is prepared by Bookbinder's Warehouse and goes from a 4" x 6" sheet for $8 to 16" x 20" for $105. I also found it interesting that they offer unprepared vellum scraps for $3 an ounce. Bran MacDavid mka Alex Wollangk Jararvellir, Northshield, Midrealm mka Madison, WI =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:27:36 EST From: Luiseach@aol.com Subject: [scribes]: Re: Pergamenata (was:Supplies ) There are mixed opinions on Pergamenata paper. I've used it for 4 or 5 pieces and I like it very much. IIRC, the Paper and Ink catalog lists it as "neutral pH" which is not quite the same thing as "acid-free" so it may not last quite as long. I have a few pieces left over from things I did 4-5 years ago and I don't see any evidence of aging, i.e. brittleness or discoloration so far. A major advantage of Pergamenata, IMHO, is that the heavyweight is heavy enough for a scroll with wax seals but is still transparent enough to allow you to trace design elements, placement lines or other marks you might want. Luighseach in cloudy Dreiburgen, getting stuff ready to teach Turkish bookbinding on Veterans' Day =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 07:48:02 -0700 From: Chendra Conklin Subject: Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Well, since I opened this can of worms I feel obligated to respond. At 02:21 PM 11/1/00, you wrote: >What is it? An implied reliance on the physical presence of a set of >expensive books to provide images and information. Funny, I didn't see this anywhere. What I saw was people, in response to my query, talking about their favorite books and *why* those books were their favorites - whether that be because of new information, a tricky/fun technique, good basic documentation, or just because the work(s) therein are breathtaking. >Several times I've read postings about how the poster owns Christopher de >Hamel's book, but never has the poster quoted it, or refered to the >significance of de Hamel's selection of images. Ummm, just because people don't refer to a specific reference in that manner certainly doesn't mean that they don't use them that way. It just means they weren't referencing a book in that manner at that moment. > I would much rather read >evidence that we are each working to develop a visual memory with the help >of its images.... Developing a visual >memory, and using it as you design a scroll, is adequate demonstration >that you are placing yourself within a tradition as near as is possible >today, and that's really the point. Tough to do unless they actually own or have access to the works on a fairly regular basis. Every scribe I know is working towards this goal, but many do not live in areas with easy access to peers, good libraries, or even other scribes in some cases. In which case the cultivation of a personal library is essential. There are also the cases of brand new scribes just starting out and those who are trying to learn a new style. I've been able to freehand knotwork for over a decade now and can discuss the major works in detail without opening one of my several celtic/insular/anglo-saxon reference books because I *do* have a strong visual memory, but that doesn't that I don't find some fun new detail every time I look at a plate, use them as inspiration for new works, or just enjoy renewing my acquaintance with beautiful artworks. > But if we start thinking of these >books as kewl stuff instead of as sources, But fine books *are* a joy in and of themselves for many. > and if we forget to remember >its images, such that we let them do our thinking for us -- who needs >them? So, I'd venture to say that no one on this list allows 'them to do out thinking for us' *smile* I still think it's a fine idea to share what references one finds useful/exciting/just plain breathtaking with the group - information is good. And I think my question of what has come out in the last 6-7 years is completely legitimate, as I have discovered that several things have been published that previously I only had access to in certain libraries (none of which are 'local' to me). Much better for my growth as a scribe to be able to own a reference rather then to only be able to see it for a couple of hours a year. - -the redhead- Red has always symbolized danger... Are you up for it? chendra@redstonegroup.org =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 07:59:02 -0700 From: Chendra Conklin Subject: Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) >I really think that more folks should be able to, without referring to a >book, look at a piece of illumination and be able to say, "Ah, a fine >example of 15th century Dutch" or "That's a nice piece of 14th century >English" or whatever. Yes, it would be nice. But how do you suggest that people gain this knowledge? For many this is a hobby (albeit a rather intense one), not 'what they went to school for'. In which case a personal library of some sort is a vital learning tool. I'm >fortunate in that I took a fair number of Art History classes in college, so >I have the academic background to be able to recognise works of varying >period styles. I just wonder how many scribes take the time to study a bit >of Art History so that they know why English bar-and-ivy is the way it is >and what makes a piece of Flemish 15th century and so on. Oh. most of them do once they've chosen to 'come over to the dark side' *grin* - -the redhead- Witches one century, independent women the next; it makes me wonder why there's such an element of danger in being different from the crowd. - Redhead C. E. Highland chendra@redstonegroup.org =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 08:02:18 -0700 From: Chendra Conklin Subject: Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) > I still have all of those books and still >find great use in them. Exactly!!!!!! Which is why the attack on the possession and usage of books/references in the first place mystifies me - -the redhead- ... who has forgotten to sign her name and kingdom this morning... Chendra Outlands/Calontir =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V4 #43 ****************************