From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V4 #41 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Wednesday, November 1 2000 Volume 04 : Number 041 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Re: [scribes]: Newbie Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Fwd: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Re: [scribes]: Newbie Re: [scribes]: Newbie [scribes]: SCA filk music on the radio [scribes]: administrative note... @home.com subscribers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:21:18 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Dear folks, I read any postings about what's in our home libraries with interest but also with unease. I'm all in favor of home libraries, but something about these postings makes me uneasy. Now I've finally realized what it is. What is it? An implied reliance on the physical presence of a set of expensive books to provide images and information. Several times I've read postings about how the poster owns Christopher de Hamel's book, but never has the poster quoted it, or refered to the significance of de Hamel's selection of images. I would much rather read evidence that we are each working to develop a visual memory with the help of its images, instead of merely talking about it as a kewl book or about its price on eBay. I think this is similar to the (in my opinion specious) arguments about whether we are copying old works and so tracing and other short-cuts are okay, or recreating the traditions and so they're not. Developing a visual memory, and using it as you design a scroll, is adequate demonstration that you are placing yourself within a tradition as near as is possible today, and that's really the point. I have nothing against home libraries, I've got one myself, and I use it to refresh my memory or inspire me. But if we start thinking of these books as kewl stuff instead of as sources, and if we forget to remember its images, such that we let them do our thinking for us -- who needs them? - --johannes v.n. "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:53:53 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) I'm not sure what your point is, Johannes. While I agree with you that in an ideal world everyone would be able to look at de Hamel, say "nifty" and then go off and create their own original book of hours style masterpiece, we don't live in an ideal world. Even in period the scribes were, to a large degree, copying other scribes. Until the idea of humanism came into its own during the early Renaissance, and illumination moved into the secular works rather than religious ones, original thought didn't seem to be encouraged in that regard. While you certainly had variations of style from artist to artist, many of the themes (and sometimes the positions and elements of a particular miniature) were similar if not downright identical. That doesn't mean I'm advocating doing the same with scrollwork, but I also think that the levels of the people on this list vary drastically. Some of us have been at it for years (like yourself and me and Kat and Eowyn) and so the library of sources becomes less important to us (although I'd dare anyone to pry our books from our cold dead fingers). But many of the people on the list are beginners and for them a library of any size with a few decent books is going to be vital. Discouraging them from using them is not a good thing, IMO. Tetchubah =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:06:42 EST From: JFazio6634@aol.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Newbie Thank you to everyone that has written. You are all so nice, I can't wait to get going on this. Here are some general quetions I have: Any suggestions for the best type of art paper to use? Are there any requirements as far as size or color? Would one of the pre-packaged calligraphy sets do to start with? I believe I saw one that had a few illumination implements as well... I have lots of painting and drawing experience, but no calligraphy experience. I know that in the old days, several scribes would sometimes work on one leaf, using their best talent. Do you still do this as far as possibly having one person paint the miniatures, and another do the lettering? Hve any of you been using pure pigments with a binder? Can egg tempura be done on paper? I have only used it on masonite. Or do most scribes use more modern color? Goache, acrylics, etc? I once knew a professional calligrapher and she used a light box. Are modern techniques completely forbidden? I suppose that's enough blathering, eh? ;o) Jillian =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:07:34 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Fair greetings this day, Master Johannes! > I think this is similar to the (in my opinion specious) arguments about > whether we are copying old works and so tracing and other short-cuts are > okay, or recreating the traditions and so they're not. Developing a visual > memory, and using it as you design a scroll, is adequate demonstration > that you are placing yourself within a tradition as near as is possible > today, and that's really the point. Ahhhhhh, a man after my own heart!!! I heartily agree with you, good Master! I believe completely in developing what you refer to as a "visual memory", as that was something that was expected of us in college when I took the numerous Art History courses that I did. To know not only, "what is it" but "where it is from, when it dates from and what is the significance of it in the Grand Scheme of Things" was something my professors drilled into us! I can still remember whole chunks of information that I digested and kept stored away in my memory banks and can still bring out at instant recall. I really think that more folks should be able to, without referring to a book, look at a piece of illumination and be able to say, "Ah, a fine example of 15th century Dutch" or "That's a nice piece of 14th century English" or whatever. That to me shows a real comprehension of the styles and why they are what they are. It'd be nice if more people would familiarise themselves with being able to recognise period styles. I'm fortunate in that I took a fair number of Art History classes in college, so I have the academic background to be able to recognise works of varying period styles. I just wonder how many scribes take the time to study a bit of Art History so that they know why English bar-and-ivy is the way it is and what makes a piece of Flemish 15th century and so on. Learning this visual imagery is also important in that it allows to to create wholly original works within a period context, rather than creating verbatim copies of already existing manuscript folios. Although I am sure that this can be a valuable exercise, still, I think that by being able to create a wholly original work using completely period design motifs shows a very real comprehension of the "period idiom" without having to resort to copying. It shows that you understand the basics of period layouts, borders, historiated initials and so on. You may have been "inspired" by a period exemplar, though. Does that make sense? > I have nothing against home libraries, I've got one myself, and I use it > to refresh my memory or inspire me. But if we start thinking of these > books as kewl stuff instead of as sources, and if we forget to remember > its images, such that we let them do our thinking for us -- who needs > them? Oh, I agree totally. I have quite an extensive library myself and I use it for sources of inspiration quite a bit. And as I mentioned in a previous post, I am currently reading my copy of the 2nd edition of de Hamel and gaining a great deal of knowledge from it. I read as well, cover to cover, my copy of my recently acquired Göttingen and found it chock full of great information as well. Much to be learned by sitting down and not only studying the imagery in these books, but reading them as well. Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:19:39 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) Good Mistress Tetchubah wrote: > That doesn't mean I'm advocating doing the same with scrollwork, but I also > think that the levels of the people on this list vary drastically. Some of > us have been at it for years (like yourself and me and Kat and Eowyn) and > so the library of sources becomes less important to us (although I'd dare > anyone to pry our books from our cold dead fingers). But many of the > people on the list are beginners and for them a library of any size with a > few decent books is going to be vital. Discouraging them from using them > is not a good thing, IMO. Oh, for beginners, using stuff in one's library is absolutely essential, I agree totally! I'd've been sunk back in my younger scribal days without a lot of the facsimile MSS. that I acquired! They taught me the basics of design, layout, colour usage, etc. I still have all of those books and still find great use in them. For a beginner, I very heartily *encourage* the acquiring and use of a good library of books! And I am especially always eager to assist beginners in finding out what books they should think about getting and using. You beginners out there: Don't be discouraged, please! You need to know what books to get or use, ask us! And even if you think your work is, well...................not the best, keep at it! If only I could show you my first scroll (yup, still got it!) and my most recent scroll (well, got a colour photocopy of it, as the recipient got the original at Crown Tourney a few weeks ago!). Boy, Quelle Difference!! Whenever I think, oh, boy, my work is just not that great, I refer back to my early stuff and realise that I have come a L-O-N-G way in the past two decades!! NEVER, never give up!! Keep at it!! You'll always find pleasant surprises along the way! And I tell you, that is what makes this craft so darned much fun!! Welcome, all you beginners and newcomers to the list! How may we be of service? :-) Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:31:36 EST From: JFazio6634@aol.com Subject: Fwd: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) - --part1_bb.8627cd5.2731f3c8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_bb.8627cd5.2731f3c8_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: From: JFazio6634@aol.com Full-name: JFazio6634 Message-ID: <16.44cf518.2731f104@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:19:48 EST Subject: Re: [scribes]: Libraries-who needs'em? (was: Libraries-what do you have) To: sburnell@raex.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 114 In a message dated 11/1/00 4:09:46 PM Central Standard Time, sburnell@raex.com writes: << To know not only, "what is it" but "where it is from, when it dates from and what is the significance of it in the Grand Scheme of Things" was something my professors drilled into us! I can still remember whole chunks of information that I digested and kept stored away in my memory banks and can still bring out at instant recall. >> As someone who had to learn and memorize many works of art in my Art History courses as well, I can completely relate! Don't ask me to name all of those works now, however. I only seem to remeber the ones I loved. However, in my opinion, and also in the opinion of many masters, ancient and modern, novice artisans learn best by copying revered works. In this way they gain a feeling for what is balanced and professional, and what is not. Most especially, I would think, in the realm of manuscripts, where there is little to no room for mistakes. Once the budding artist has learned technique from those before her, then she can take the proverbial "leap from the nest" and its safety to design her own works. At that point she is only guided by her own conscience and the stigma of plagurism. Also, as my drawing professor used to say, there are craftsmen and artists. Craftsmen are professionals with technique, and can become quite prolific if not imaginative. Artists are the ones who shake up society, drink themselves into their grave, and are by far, the most wonderful people in the world... Jillian - --part1_bb.8627cd5.2731f3c8_boundary-- =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:49:33 -0500 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Newbie Dear Jillian, > Any suggestions for the best type of art paper to use? Are there any > requirements as far as size or color? Well, now, every scribe you talk to is going to have a different preference! I personally LOVE Arches 140# hot press paper. It's non-acidic and comes in 22" x 30" sheets at my local art store. You should be able to find it at someplace like Pat Catan's or Michael's Party Store if you have those near you. No particular requirements for size or colour, but bear in mind that as far as coloured paper was concerned, in some very early Christian and Byzantine Manuscripts as well as some Manuscripts from the Carolingian Period ( 9th century), purple dyed vellum was used. I've also seen Manuscripts that were done on black dyed vellum with either silver or gold borderwork and lettering, but I cannot seem to recall what time period those came from (and no amount of searching through my books came up with the answer...................) But for the most part, vellum was just painted on as it was naturally, a kind of beige-ish colour once it was prepared for scribing. Granted, the paper I use, Arches 140# hot press, is snow white, and therefore not period looking at all, but boy, is it ever forgiving when one makes a blunder and needs correction!! I'd like to try real vellum someday and I would also like to try this stuff I've heard about called "Pergamenata", that I hear is very close in feel to real vellum! I think you can get that from some of the specialty art store places and maybe someday, I'll get a hold of some and try it out! > Would one of the pre-packaged calligraphy sets do to start with? I believe I > saw one that had a few illumination implements as well... Well, the only real drawback to those is that the inks that you have to use in those pens are water based, which means that they will run like crazy if you splatter water on the calligraphy while painting. Although, truth to tell, that is what I started out using before graduating to the dip pens that I use today. I dunno, I guess if using a dip pen is a wee bit too intimidating, then go ahead and use those pre-packaged sets until you get comfortable with doing calligraphy. As for dip pens - my *strong* recommendation: Brause!! Fabulous!! Boy, those beat the pants off of my old Speedballs any day of the week! Again, every scribe is going to have differing preferences. Some swear by their Mitchells. Me? Yuck, hate 'em! Just a matter of personal preference, though! Don't take my opinion here as The Gospel!!! > I have lots of painting and drawing experience, but no calligraphy > experience. I know that in the old days, several scribes would sometimes > work on one leaf, using their best talent. Do you still do this as far as > possibly having one person paint the miniatures, and another do the lettering? > Hve any of you been using pure pigments with a binder? Can egg tempura be > done on paper? I have only used it on masonite. Or do most scribes use more > modern color? Goache, acrylics, etc? Oh, well, I do all of my own work: I do the calligraphy and the illumination. Started out just as a calligrapher because...........well, truth to tell, I was scared to death of illuminating at first! Thought I did not possess one shred of artistic talent! There are scribes, though, who only do calligraphy or who only do illumination and who do collaborate on stuff, although most of the scribes I know do both. I use modern gouaches, although I have used period pigments with gum arabic binders. Haven't tried the egg tempera bit yet, but I don't know why it couldn't be done on paper. I intend to try it one of these days! I did, however, work with period pigments using egg yolk and water on paper once when a scribe at Pennsic was teaching me some stuff. Turned out nice. Very permanent! > I once knew a professional calligrapher and she used a light box. Are modern > techniques completely forbidden? Aw, heck no! Go ahead and use modern if you want! I know LOTS of scribes who use light boxes! Especially since you are a beginner, don't feel obliged to jump right in and try totally period stuff if you don't want to. If it'd set your mind more at ease by using modern materials and techniques, go right ahead! That is how I started and I still use a lot of modern materials because usually I am scribing on a very short and tight deadline and don't have the time to put into preparing period stuff. And I doubt any of the recipients of my scrolls have ever begrudged me that, either!! Have fun, and don't be afraid to blather on! That's why we are here as scribes, to not only share what we know, but to ask questions as well and learn from our fellow scribes! Welcome to the list, and I hope your experience here is as enjoyable as it has been for me these past few years! Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:58:55 -0800 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: Re: [scribes]: Newbie Just my 2 cents: >>Any suggestions for the best type of art paper to use? Are there any requirements as far as size or color?<< When using paper I usually use Arches 140# hot press. Nice to work with, also Arches has been in business since the 15th century and this rag paper is quite period. Try to use 100% rag papers when possible. I've also used Arches Rives BFK. Several people on the list have recommended one called Pergamenta which is a pseudo-parchment which is supposed to be archival, but I'm a little leery of that (call me a fuddy-duddy). Size and color are up to you, but I generally use a white paper. Period stuff also used vellums dyed purple and black (I think I've seen one in a burgundy too). I think the off-white stuff is kind of tacky. >>Would one of the pre-packaged calligraphy sets do to start with? I believe I saw one that had a few illumination implements as well...<< If you're talking about a set of pens, go ahead. If nothing else they're good for practice and some of the sets are quite good. You never know til you try. >>I have lots of painting and drawing experience, but no calligraphy experience. I know that in the old days, several scribes would sometimes work on one leaf, using their best talent. Do you still do this as far as possibly having one person paint the miniatures, and another do the lettering?<< By all means - several people here on the list specialize. If the thought of calligraphy intimidates you for now, find someone to work with. But do try the callig - it's not as hard as it looks. It just takes practice like most things. >>Hve any of you been using pure pigments with a binder? Can egg tempura be done on paper? I have only used it on masonite. Or do most scribes use more modern color? Goache, acrylics, etc?<< I think RanthulfR and Johannes typically use pigments with binder (usually glair). Egg tempura isn't really recommended by most people here but I know it's been used (it has some disadvantages for illumination work). Many people on the list use gouache and watercolors (including myself) since they're easier to obtain than pigments. I think a few are using acrylics, but they can be kind of brittle so if the scroll is going to be abused I wouldn't recommend them. They also look plasticy to my eye - not period looking. >>I once knew a professional calligrapher and she used a light box. Are modern techniques completely forbidden?<< Hell no, although I think a few people here would like to ;-) I was just using my art box for calligraphy the other day - did the original on a piece of scrap to get the spacing down right, then used the lightbox to transfer it over to the spam vellum I'm using on my current project. Tetchubah of Greenlake, Caid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:03:04 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: [scribes]: SCA filk music on the radio Dear folks, On November 12 (Sunday), from 2-4 PM I will be hosting a local radio show usually devoted to world music. This show instead will be a Veterans' Day show on commemorative events and music. The first half of the show will feature songs by Civil War reenactors and members of the SCA (from my dissertation research). If you want to listen, you can do so online: "http://www.wfhb.org/" Please forward this message. johannes v.n. -- john cash, esa world music show, wfhb community radio "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:30:37 -0800 From: Lee Damon Subject: [scribes]: administrative note... @home.com subscribers All mail to @home.com is bouncing with 'relaying denied' messages. In the hopes that it'll be fixed before the next digest goes out, I've moved all @home.com subscribers to the digest list. (Hopefully they won't miss any more list mail.) nomad postmaster@castle.org ----------- - Lee "nomad" Damon - \ play: nomad@castle.org or castle!nomad \ work: nomad@amazon.com \ /\ Seneschal, Castle PAUS. / \ "Celebrate Diversity" / \ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V4 #41 ****************************