From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V4 #24 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, October 23 2000 Volume 04 : Number 024 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: miniatures, initials and text areas RE: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars RE: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars [scribes]: Re: [scribes] Ink stuff - Long Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars RE: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars [scribes]: Re: johannes comments ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Hrefna in heppna Subject: [scribes]: miniatures, initials and text areas Greetings and Salutations! This is a little long but bare with me. There is a moral at the end. I'm working on a piece based on a page from an early 15th century French Book of Hours. It is 170 mm by 120 mm and features a prominent miniature with a gold border and illuminated capital with three lines of text. The text area is underlined in gold. There is also a forest of acanthus leaves plus guest appearances of a few other plants. I carefully measured everything out. The original manuscript is slightly taller and fatter. So, keeping everything in proportion has been difficult. (Thank goodness there are other manuscripts from the same time period to check proportions against!) The miniature's border and text underline were two of the first things to be drawn. I carefully made sure that the text area was rectangular with 90 degree angles at each corner. I then drew in all the acanthus leaves, et cetera and then laid down the gesso. Imagine my dismay when all the gesso was down. Somehow, I had mismeasured and made the gilded initial end of the text area smaller then the other end of the text area. Disaster! After much gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes, my lord calmly stepped in and measured both ends of the text area. To our surprise, I hadn't mismeasured! This was an optical illusion. But none of the manuscripts look that way! So taking out my trusty ruler, I started measuring text boxes below miniatures. Here's what I found: 1) Some of the manuscripts do look that way. The calligraphy decreases the illusion. 2) Some manuscripts compensated for the illusion by bringing the non-initial end of the text area underline up 1-2 mm. I.E. the line under the text area is slightly tilted. Where there was no line, the acanthus leaf forest border tilts upwards. This makes the text area look square even though it isn't. Neat trick. Thought I'd share. Hrefna in heppna Thorgrimsdottir __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:57:59 -0600 From: "Edgar, Terry" Subject: RE: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars Greetings! Regarding basing scrolls on period exemplars, I personaly do try very hard to match up styles times etc., with the appropriate caligraphic hand. I admit however, that although I have come to recognize this, I am by no means an expert yet to the point that I am now wondering if I have made this mistake. My question to those of you more learned than I is, How do I know? By that I mean, I have four books with a assortment of illuminated manuscripts and try to keep what I am working on within a certain style such as "Gothic" for example but I usually look at several in the general time period but not necessarily the same exact location geographically. I have also taken border decorations I liked from one scroll example and incorporated it into a scroll without thinking about the relationship or historical accuracy. This however would be something small like a decorative white work I liked for example. I recently did a russian scroll and when I was done, felt it had a russian feel to it. pieces of the decorations on the scroll however were inspired by illumination from other period sources. I admit part of this is just the lack of knowledge on my part. But I do try to research as much as I can before I start a scroll. Any advice on how I can "know" if I am generally ok or not? Rivka - -----Original Message----- From: RenScribe@aol.com [mailto:RenScribe@aol.com] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 10:55 AM To: scribes@castle.org Subject: Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars In a message dated 10/22/00 7:44:26 PM, sburnell@raex.com writes: >May I ask a question of the list? Do most of you base your scroll designs >on actual period exemplars or do you pretty much make up your own designs >and layout patterns? Yes :-) On some scrolls, I try and stick to a single exemplar. I'll swap out elements to be able to place an order badge in the illumination or paint the recipient instead of a generic figure. I keep true to the original piece as much as possible. Those pieces are signed "based on - insert manuscript name here" Sometimes I change the design so much, it only slightly resembles the original piece. Those pieces are signed "inspired by - insert manuscript name here" When I started out as an illuminator, I was taught to study several exemplars from a specific location/time and combine the elements I like into one completely unique scroll. Those pieces are signed "illumination by Eibhlin ni Chaoimh" Most of the scribes I run into who are not doing what would be considered period style work are just not familiar enough with exemplars or have only used the elements they feel they were capable of duplicating. I like to think of it as part of the learning process. I remember back to when I was a novice and how many of the same mistakes I made. <> I quickly figured out that if I wanted to improve, I had to point out my own mistakes and ask specific questions about how to do better next time. Even if I don't know exactly what I've done wrong - if something about a piece "just isn't right" - I will ask other scribes to offer suggestions. Some scribes feel uncomfortable and will avoid commenting on scrolls on their own. Ask them for advice on how to fix something, and it becomes an opportunity for them to teach rather than feeling like they are trashing your work. In the end they feel like they have helped you solve a problem and you benefit from their knowledge. It's a win/win situation :-) Eibhlin ni Chaoimh AEthelmearc =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:00:41 -0700 From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com Subject: RE: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars I have done scrolls doing both. When I first started doing scrolls, I lived in a very remote part of the kingdom (i.e. Western Seas, which is Hawaii for those of you out of Caid). No one, and I mean NO ONE, had any idea what they were supposed to look like so I got some photos from Eowyn Amberdrake, then Scribe Armarius, of some scrolls that had been done by others in the main part of the kingdom. Looking back on my first efforts, they were a mishmash of what I felt I *could* do without having to learn many new techniques. I think the first 4 scrolls I did all had celtic interlace borders (based on a handout Eowyn also sent me), but I used gothic blackhand (the only hand I knew) as the calligraphy and on one of them I also added an ivy design. Makes me shudder to think of it now but I was new and was learning. I think we all need to cut people who are starting out a little slack in that regard - it takes some time to develop a good eye for what should and shouldn't be mixed with things. Nowadays I usually will look at several exemplars from my now vast library, and pick elements that are from the same place/period, or use one example as the base for an entire design. I"m doing that now with an arabic style scroll that I'm working on. I'm using Christofano's pseudo-arabic script for the calligraphy, but the other design elements are from a period manuscript. Even now, however, I'm willing to go the entirely nonperiod route for a scroll if I think that's what the recipient would like. My next project is going to look vaguely period (most likely the bar and ivy French style) but the elements are going to be entirely modern - Disney, in fact. And that's because I know the recipient will have a great appreciation for this. I don't see anything wrong in this, but I also wouldn't be entering it in the Arts Pentathlon either. Anyone else in Caid remember the "Death Star" scroll? Tetchubah of Greenlake =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:58:54 -0400 From: alienor Subject: [scribes]: Re: [scribes] Ink stuff - Long This is a short description of the walnut inks I made for Weekend of Wisdom. Both were made from the hulls of black walnuts which are abundant in my yard and have been waking me as they bounce off my roof at 4:00 in the morning! [I'm not sure of the relative merits of English walnut hulls vs. black walnut hulls. My English walnut produced only two nuts last year and three this. I could probably make a _small_ batch from the hulls. I'll try it and let you know. But my experience is that the hulls of black walnuts are a QUITE adequate source of pigment.] I actually made two batches of ink. The first was from an uncounted number of walnut hulls which had not yet begun to rot. These were thrown in an enamel pot and covered with water. (I know that some time ago, someone posted a message about a concern with ruining pots by doing this. I would comment that this batch of ink left my enamel pot in nicer condition than when I started. And as far as I know tannic acid is not toxic. I did not place anything else in this pot with the walnut hulls though.) Anyway, I boiled them until the water looked dark, removed the hulls, reduced the water by about half (however much that was :~) and then filtered the mess through coffee filters. That part took FOREVER. I let that batch sit for a few weeks, removed the mold which formed while I wasn't looking, and boiled the liquid again to a point where it seemed to have a decent density. Then I added some gum arabic. For those who have a more measured style, I offer a RECIPE for the second batch. 20 soft black walnut hulls (I used them when stepping on them caused them to split open) 1 gallon of water about ten rusty nails enough gum arabic to make it flow nicely Put the hulls in water and boil until reduced by half. Remove the hulls and strain the liquid through cheesecloth. Return the liquid to the pot and reduce it again until you are left with about 1 quart. At this point, I devided the mixture in half and let it sit for two days, after which I poured off the liquid and through away the gunk in the bottom of the jars. In one half of the liquid I placed the rusty nails. The other half was the brown ink Eibhlin used at Weekend of Wisdom. I can also post the recipe I used for iron gall ink if anyone wants it. I was really pleased with my results. If anyone wants to come to my house and pick up walnuts... Cheers, Alienora, who is SOOOO glad all the nuts are finally off the tree. =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:34:34 -0700 From: "MThomson" Subject: Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars My Lady Saradwen, M'Ladies, M'Lords - I am myself a follower of the traditional - and I have also seen some intermingled examples of illumination and calligraphy that struck me as absurd if we are who we claim to be - an organization doing serious research and recreation of the Middle Ages of Europe. I decry those that have taken the old unwritten adage of "not exactly as they were, but as they should have been" and I believe that in combining styles that were never combined to historical knowledge, and mixing them with modern styles only lends credence to some of the derisive comments I have heard regarding "SCA research" from some noted authenic historical researchers. I am but new to the Scribes, and do not wish to raise any political hackles, or hurt anyone's feelings, but I believe that we have to draw the line somewhere regarding historical accuracy, even if we have to make some concessions to availability of period authentic materials, and perhaps some minor concessions to different styles from the same or close to same time periods of the same country. In being asked a few years ago to comment on how "beautiful" a scroll from Meridies was - I could only look askance at the very modern style of a gituar drawn into a large capital - and only murmured something about the mix of color... while trying hard to appreciate the joy of the person (a modern musician) who received it. Alt Andreas von Sohren, PCS sent by Sonicnetmail __________________________________________ Go Postal! Get free email from http://www.sonicnetmail.com Music + Free Email = Double Happiness =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:33:21 -0500 (EST) From: john j cash Subject: RE: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars Dear folks, Rivka writes, "I recently did a russian scroll and when I was done, felt it had a russian feel to it. pieces of the decorations on the scroll however were inspired by illumination from other period sources. "I admit part of this is just the lack of knowledge on my part. But I do try to research as much as I can before I start a scroll. "Any advice on how I can "know" if I am generally ok or not? If you can figure out what about it gave it a "russian feel", you should be able to use that knowledge to see how much of a "french" or "italian" or "arabic feel" something else gives you when simply "inspired by sources." - -- johannes v.n. "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:33:25 -0700 From: "MThomson" Subject: [scribes]: Re: johannes comments Johannes May I suggest that you read the SCA homepage regarding who and what we are? To maintain our non profit status we have to engage in actual, authentic mideaval research, not fantasy. While you may find fantasy quite delightful, some of us are indeed serious researchers. Alt Andreas von Sohren, PCS Baron Jaegersberg sent by Sonicnetmail __________________________________________ Go Postal! Get free email from http://www.sonicnetmail.com Music + Free Email = Double Happiness =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V4 #24 ****************************