From: owner-scribes@castle.org (scribes digest) To: scribes-digest@castle.org Subject: scribes digest V4 #22 Reply-To: Sender: owner-scribes@castle.org Errors-To: owner-scribes@castle.org Precedence: bulk scribes digest Monday, October 23 2000 Volume 04 : Number 022 ======================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with unsubscribe scribes-digets in the body of the message. Leave the subject line blank. Do not include any additional text. [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:42:30 -0400 From: "Sally Burnell" Subject: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars May I ask a question of the list? Do most of you base your scroll designs on actual period exemplars or do you pretty much make up your own designs and layout patterns? The reason I ask is a puzzling tendency I have seen of late in some scribes to mix period styles that don't really go together too well and to utilise more modern graphical layout schemes. A recent example is a scroll that I saw where the scribe mixed Italian Renaissance with Celtic. While it was very skillfully done and was beautiful craftsmanship, it bore no resemblance to anything remotely period. I guess what I am driving at here is what I have begun to refer to as "developing the Mediaeval eye" for lack of a better term. While some period exemplars make us uncomfortable in their use of colour and layouts, still, for their time that was the period style. And so I have begun to feel more of a need in my own self to develop that "Mediaeval eye", to the end that I did a recent Northern French piece (the one I chronicled here this last week) that all the way bothered me and made me somewhat uncomfortable because of the juxtaposition of weird colours and the odd layout that it required me to do, and I had to keep reminding myself that the colours and layout were purely period and that I must not be prejudiced by my "modern eye". I've always based every single scroll I have ever made on an actual period piece. I never verbatim copy but always try to change something to make it completely mine. I use period layouts as well, never deviating from what was the period style. I guess I am bothered by what I feel is an increased tendency to go for making scrolls that feel, to my eye, "too modern" in their designs and layouts, and I am wondering how many scribes bother to build libraries of books about illumination (I *know* you have an impressive library, Meisterin Katarina!! I *really* want to see this sometime!!!). I have a small library of books on illuminated manuscripts (limited, I am afraid, by the tiny size of this apartment, so I tend to be more selective as to what I buy). I hope no one on this list takes umbrage at what I am saying here, and if so, I apologise in advance. It is just something that has been kind of nagging me of late and I wanted to see how the rest of you feel with regard to trying to make your scrolls "more period" in their overall feel. Thanks for listening........................... Saradwen Midrealm =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:07:29 -0400 From: Susan Arthur Subject: Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars At 07:42 PM 10/22/00 -0400, Sally Burnell wrote: >May I ask a question of the list? Do most of you base your scroll designs on >actual period exemplars or do you pretty much make up your own designs and >layout patterns? Hi, Saradwen. Good question. I base my work on period exemplars, though not on equivalent works, ie, awards of arms. I work from those gorgeous manuscripts in de Hamel, Backhouse, etc, plus Visconti, the Grand Hours of the Duke du Berry, Catherine of Cleves..... funny, I just seem to keep accumulating these beautiful books! I have done a couple of (early) works that were almost exactly traced, with only modifications to make them fit the text and the paper I was working on. One of the things we did in design school to teach us to analyze what we were looking at was to trace it, so I figured by making as nearly exact a copy as I could, I would learn more about how they did what they did, visually speaking. Now I feel more comfortable loosening up a bit. I still work from the hand on the page-- I don't go back to my calligraphy books and find the nearest equivalent. One of the best classes I ever took was one at Pennsic right after I started scribing, that taught how to look at calligraphy and analyze it to reproduce it. Since then I have not been bound by any of my calligraphy books, no matter how good. There are always variations from scribe to scribe, and I feel certain that by using the version on the manuscript itself that I am using a real exemplar. When I paint people, I often try to match them to the recipient and friends, but I still trace from manuscripts, and then modify the drawing to change positions, etc. (Thank heavens for copiers that enlarge and shrink copies!) That way I know I am getting the style of the drawing right. I find it very jarring to see a mismatch between the hand and the painting, never mind different styles within the painting itself, and I always encourage students to learn the appropriate hand and to work directly from manuscripts. I know that books are expensive, but most of us have friends or libraries that we can borrow from. It is also important to remember that it isn't necessary to have a facsimile of every manuscript that we like-- a good survey book, like de Hamel or Backhouse, can go a long way. Lucia =========================== Lucia Bellini Baroness, Windmasters' Hill Companion of the Pearl Guildmistress, Windmasters' Hill Scriptorium http://scribe.atlantia.sca.org/gallery/Lucia =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:59:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Portia Muir Subject: Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars Saradwen asked: > > Do most of you base your scroll designs on > >actual period exemplars or do you pretty much > >make up your own designs and layout patterns? I'm not going to turn this into a "me too" from Lucia's post, but she brings up many excellent ideas. The biggest difference between her story and mine is that I started out by trying to make up my own "medieval-ish" designs purely from my own experience and sense of design. The scrolls that resulted from this some of the most fun, interesting, entertaining scrolls I've created. The friends who recieved them loved them. However, they were nothing beyond pure fantasy. In short, if I was illustrating a "Dungeons & Dragons" book or any of the SciFi/ Fantasy novels that can be found in most bookstores, these scrolls would have been perfect. As recreations of medieval and renaissance book art, they s-t-a-n-k!!! I was lucky. In my case, I was making them for people who I knew loved that kind of work. These recipients were good friends who did not care about authenticity. However, not all of the S.C.A. is like this. From there, my story roughly parallels Lucia's. I began by copying, copying, copying. I tried to get as exact as possible. Now I feel that I have a good grasp on what they would have done and how they would have seen things. These days, if I want to create something in a particular style I'll look at a few good examples and create a piece that I know would have fit in with them. In the end, it comes down to asking myself, "Could have this have been created in period?" and "Will the person who's recieving it appreciate it?" Between those two points, I can usually come up with a scroll that I'll be proud of and the recipient will enjoy. - -Portia (East) - -Portia (East) ===== "Remain steadfast, and one day you will build something that endures, Something worthy of your potential." - -Epictetus (Roman Teacher and Philosopher 55-135 ad.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 01:06:35 -0400 From: wyverns Subject: Re: [scribes]: Basing scrolls on period exemplars Well, I've never found Italian Ren and Celtic to conflict, since the Italians seem to have used lots of knotwork motifs... ;-) When I am basing a scroll on books of hours or documents, I generally try to take all my bits and pieces from the same time/area to the degree possible. The layout can be the trickiest, because some of the styles I like call for massive amounts of illumination and little or no space for text (e.g. carpet pages, which may contain elements not used in mostly-text pages of the same manuscript) and we don't always have the time or inclination to do much illumination. Being selective in a vaguely period manner can be a real challenge. On the other hand, there are very few layouts that I haven't found some version of in any given period, once I managed to collect enough samples. On yet another hand, in the rare cases for which I have a facsimili edition or a collection of several pages from the same manuscript, there are usually enough text and illuminated pages to provide a selection of layouts with the desired amount of text and illumination space, and I usually try to stick with one of them. I do, however, not always base my scrolls on scribal models. I have also made scrolls based on 'blackwork' and other needlearts, tapestries, stained glass window-walls, and am currently designing one based on the jeweled book BINDING of an early period book, "as it might have been rendered by a later period scribe". Most of these have rquired a bit of creative layout to fitthe requisit amount of text and heraldry in a way that did not disrupt the intended effect in the illumination. Hmmm, perhaps a lace doily with a "curled piece of parchment" 'pinned' to the middle... If I paint the lace in white on an off-white sheet... Is lace thick enough to cast a slight shadow...? Back to the main point... Often when I have encountered scrolls that are... of questionable layout it turns out that the maker a) had based it on a manuscript I hadn't encountered (blush) b) had limited access to good period models and was basing the design on other scrolls they had seen (that's how I started mrmph many years ago ;-) c) they were just starting a new period and hadn't been working on it long enough to pick up on some of the nuances that made it different, d) they took one element, such as a leaf-and-vine pattern they liked and did with it whatever they wanted to get the job done. Which is cool, too, so long as they realize that it isn't perfectly authentic and don't try to document it as such. Color is another matter and I try to use colors appropriate to the period but combine them in a way that is pleasing to my own eye, period practice not withstanding. For one, colors do things to each other visually, even when they are not mixed or even touching on the page, and that phenomenon is as yet out of my control. For another, most recipients have modern tastes and modern furnishings and some period color combinations simply refuse to do anything but clash with every room in the house. If I'm going to go to the effort of making a scroll, I don't want it hidden away because the recipient considers the thing garish, just as I do. Well, those are my late night thoughts on the topic Enid =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this list, send email to with a blank Subject: line and unsubscribe scribes in the body of the message. Do not include any additional text in the body. ------------------------------ End of scribes digest V4 #22 ****************************