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scribes digest       Wednesday, October 4 2000       Volume 03 : Number 021



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 [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors - clarification
 Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors
 [scribes]: Beginning library
 Re: [scribes]: Beginning library
 Re: [scribes]: Beginning library
 [scribes]: Brown ink

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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 11:52:14 -0500
From: Lori Martell <redek@skypoint.com>
Subject: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors - clarification

>Sorry for the confusion factor.  <smile>  And, I went back and looked at the
>original request this morning (I got confused as the original was at work
>and I answered last night from home), and it was  for white work not white
>vine.  But, it did spark some great interactions <grin>.

Ok, I posted the original so *I* went back and checked what my befuddled 
brain typed  :)

What I wanted was white vine work - the Italian interlace stuff  :)  but 
you are right, that's not really what I typed.  I apologize for the mix up 
but heck!  I've gotten some really good notes out of the discussion  :)

Sorry folks, I'll try to be more clear next time  :)

Aldiana
Northshield, Midrealm

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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:56:38 -0700
From: Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Illuminated Alphabet colors

>>The only gilding on the page was some decorative bars going the length of
the
border.  The dots inside the colored sections were actually yellow paint
(similar to a canary yellow) in the green and red portions, and white in
the
blue ones.  The green was a very strong green, not minty like Mistletoe is.
<<

I don't think that Mistletoe Green looks "minty" at all, Katarina.  It
certainly can if you add white to it, but straight out of the tube it's
pretty pure.

>>Another wonderful source for white vine work is a book I purchased years
ago
called:  "Pliny the Elder, Historia Naturalis," published under the venue
of the<<

I'd also recommend locating a copy (now out of print) of "Biblioteca
Corvinianus" - I don't have the rest of the information on it with me right
now.  But this book has lots of leaves from the former collection of King
Mathias of Hungary who apparently hired nearly every Italian illuminator to
do books for him at one point.  LOTS of full page examples of white vine
work, including some quite unusual ones.

>>I hope this helps anyone else who is doing white vine.  By the way, there
is
only the slightest suggestion of a light brown wash as "shading" on one of
the
edges of the vines in the Pliny book.  I don't recall if this was present
in the
book I viewed at The Newberry.  The putti in the Newberry manuscript were
heavily shaded with brown, however.<<

I think the putti tended to be painted in a more naturalistic style than
the vines themselves.

As to the "faded" or "brown" controversy, please note that in my original
note I did say that the ink may have been "too light" to begin with.  I
really find it hard to believe that most of the calligraphers *wanted*
brown ink rather than black inks, and I've never heard anyone suggest in
writing or practice that they deliberately made their inks sepia or brown.
Yes, different recipes will give you different results in color, but I
still think they were aiming for black whenever they could get it.  But we
all know how predictable these things can be.

As to whether they faded - yes, I do think some of the inks have faded,
particularly in some of the antiphonal pages I've seen.  The manuscripts
don't seem to have suffered from that particular problem since they were
normally kept closed.  Antiphonals were frequently left open on the music
stands and while I don't see them often, the ones I suspect have faded were
not in museums so they're difficult to document.  I've seen them at
antiquarian shows (less frequently) or antique shows (fairly frequently).
I do recall seeing one many years ago at the Long Beach antique swap market
- - half the page was in a fairly black ink (not real black, but certainly
darker than sepia) - the other half was brown/sepia.  Since it was like
this "per pale" on the page it was pretty obvious that it wasn't because of
different colored inks.  I don't know how old the fading was - it could
have happened at any time in the page's life and this was from the late
15th century so it had 500 years to do it.  There wasn't that much
illumination on it so it's hard to tell what happened to the colors (and
most of the good illumination was on the faded side), but the reds were
faded in the same pattern - they were almost invisible on the faded half.
The dealer wanted way too much money for it or I'd have bought it as an
example of "what not do do" with such things.

Tetchubah of Greenlake

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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 13:19:41 -0500
From: Linda Carey <licarey@hsc.usf.edu>
Subject: [scribes]: Beginning library

Good afternoon;

Please forgive this posting, as I'm sure this question has been asked
before, but I've just finished my first original scroll, and I'm looking
to broaden my illumination library.  I have the Illuminated Alphabet by
Seligman, and would love to get more.  Any advice would be greatly
appreciated.

In service to the Dream,
Lady Seannach Mac Lochlainn
Trimaris

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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:47:14 -0400
From: Elizabeth Blatt <heb4@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Beginning library

At 1:19 PM -0500 10/4/00, Linda Carey wrote:
>Good afternoon;
>
>Please forgive this posting, as I'm sure this question has been asked
>before, but I've just finished my first original scroll, and I'm looking
>to broaden my illumination library.  I have the Illuminated Alphabet by
>Seligman, and would love to get more.  Any advice would be greatly
>appreciated.
>

What kind of books are you looking for?  How-to ones, historical surveys of MSS?

Elianora
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:51:23 -0400
From: "Laura Peskett" <2rozakii@home.com>
Subject: Re: [scribes]: Beginning library

> Good afternoon;
>
> Please forgive this posting, as I'm sure this question has been asked
> before, but I've just finished my first original scroll, and I'm looking
> to broaden my illumination library.  I have the Illuminated Alphabet by
> Seligman, and would love to get more.  Any advice would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> In service to the Dream,
> Lady Seannach Mac Lochlainn
> Trimaris

Any books by Janet Backhouse are great.  I also use my Illuminated
Manuscripts by Christopher de Hamel a lot.  Both have a nice selection of
different periods in them.

Lady Tzitzakion
Barony Beyond the Mountain, East Kingdom

P.S. I love the Illuminated Alphabet.  I think it is a great book for
showing the steps on creating different styles, as well as gives great hints
and tips.  Definitely a great beginners book!

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Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 17:51:19 +0000
From: Randy Asplund <randyaf@provide.net>
Subject: [scribes]: Brown ink

Carolyn_Richardson@cch.com wrote:
 
> As to the "faded" or "brown" controversy, please note that in my original
> note I did say that the ink may have been "too light" to begin with.  I
> really find it hard to believe that most of the calligraphers *wanted*
> brown ink rather than black inks, and I've never heard anyone suggest in
> writing or practice that they deliberately made their inks sepia or brown.
> Yes, different recipes will give you different results in color, but I
> still think they were aiming for black whenever they could get it.  But we
> all know how predictable these things can be.

> Tetchubah of Greenlake

Actually, black is a harsh color and so I think that the reason for using
thiner brown ink for underdrawing, layout of ruling lines, and especially soft
color drawing of white vine, is a perfectly reasonable artistic choice.

RanthulfR
- -- 

Randy Asplund     (734) 663-0954
Science Fiction and Fantasy Illustration
2101 S. Circle Dr., Ann Arbor, MI. 48103

See a Universe of art ranging from Medieval Manuscripts 
to Star Trek and Magic: The Gathering at:
http://www.provide.net/~randyaf

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End of scribes digest V3 #21
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